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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 03:23 PM
Original message
From Vietnam to Fallujah, confronting the full measure of atrocities
Edited on Mon Sep-13-04 03:24 PM by G_j
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=6217

From Vietnam to Fallujah

. by Fran Schor September 13, 2004

The recent controversy surrounding the "Swift Boat Veterans" ad challenging John Kerry's Vietnam record and his later statements as a leader of Vietnam Veterans against the War (VVAW) have fallen into predictable partisan perspectives. Republicans and their media attack machine still insist that Kerry's medals are suspect and his VVAW activities were treasonous. Kerry and the Democrats, in turn, have found further documentary evidence and eye-witness accounts to support his version of the Vietnam incidents. As far as Kerry's 1971 testimony about US atrocities in Vietnam, Kerry has reiterated that he was just recounting reports from the Winter Soldier Investigations. In addition, he tried earlier to deflect criticism of his VVAW positions by claiming that some of his statements were overzealous and part of the heated rhetoric of the times. In effect, the Bush Administration and Republicans have tried to deny that atrocities took place while Kerry and the Democrats have tried to minimize or marginalize them.

For those who have studied the historical record of the US prosecution of the war in Southeast Asia, neither the Republicans nor Democrats have confronted the full measure of those atrocities and what their legacy is especially in the war on Iraq. While most studies of the war in Southeast Asia acknowledge that 4 times the tonnage of bombs was dropped on Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos than that used by the US in all theaters of operation during World War II, only a few, such as James William Gibson's The Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam, analyze the full extent of such bombing. Not only were thousands of villages in Vietnam totally destroyed, but massive civilian deaths, numbering close to 3 million, resulted in large part from such indiscriminate bombing. Integral to the bombing strategy was the use of weapons that violated international law, such as napalm and anti-personnel fragmentation bombs. As a result of establishing free-fire zones where anything and everything could be attacked, including hospitals, US military operations led to the deliberate murder of mostly civilians.

While Rumsfeld and the Pentagon have touted the "clean" weapons used in Iraq, the fact is that aerial cluster bombs and free-fire zones have continued to be part of present day military operations. Villages throughout Iraq, from Hilla to Fallujah, have borne and are bearing US attacks that take a heavy civilian toll. Occasionally, criticisms of the type of ordnance used in Iraq found its way into the mainstream press, especially when left-over cluster bomblets looking like yellow food packages blow up in children's hands or depleted uranium weapons are dropped inadvertently on British soldiers. However, questions about the immorality of "shock and awe" bombing strategy have been buried deeper than any of the cluster bomblets.

In Vietnam, a primary ground war tactic was the "search and destroy" mission with its over-inflated body counts. As Christian Appy forcefully demonstrated in Working Class War: American Combat Soldiers and Vietnam, such tactics were guaranteed to produce atrocities. Any revealing personal account of the war in Vietnam, such as Ron Kovic's Born on the Fourth of July, underscores how those atrocities took their toll on civilians and US soldiers, like Kovic. Of course, certain high-profile atrocities, such as My Lai, achieved prominent media coverage (almost, however, a year after the incident.) Nonetheless, My Lai was seen either as an aberration and not part of murderous campaigns such as the Phoenix program with its thousands of assassinations or a result of a few bad apples, like a Lt. Calley, who nonetheless received minor punishment for his command of the massacre of hundreds of women and children. Moreover, as reported in Tom Engelhardt's The End of Victory Culture, "65% of Americans claimed not to be upset by the massacre" (224). Is it, therefore, not surprising that Noam Chomsky asserted during this period that the US had to undergo some sort of de- nazification in order to regain some moral sensitivity to what US war policy had produced in Vietnam


..more..
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well written
...and made some good points.

I find the use of the denazification term paradoxical. The media and our armed forces make every effort to hide what they are doing from the public back home when it comes to killing and death. So I prefer to think that the majority of Americans are not nazified but would react appropriately if presented with the atrocities occurring daily to civilians, women, and children in Iraq.

"As of now, the US attacks only from the air in Fallujah" Peter Jennings 6:30
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. atrocities
in my opinion the most courageous act of kerry's life was exposing the war when he came back. he surely jumped into the hearts of all who protested and enlightened many outsiders. there was a pentagon investigation completed in 75 but burried because it was deemed no longer relevant (politically, i assume) tonight cbs showed a dead baby killed in our latest attack. information is power. cbs seems to be shifting.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I keep hoping that if these idiots keep
making a stink about Kerry's statements back then, that some people may take enough interest to find out for themselves what really happened.
The truth speaks for itself. Those three million dead were certainly not mostly Viet Cong.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Whether they do or not
Americans need to be EDUCATED. The Public's airwaves simply MUST be retrieved from the looters and put to better use.

How anyone can dispute the horror and waste of Viet Nam is beyond my comprehension... Iraq is well on its way to being much, much worse.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I hear ya
there are few things more dangerous than rewriting history. Especially when that history includes crimes against humanity.
Suddenly we are hearing the Vietnam war discussed as if it were a grand and noble cause. It may not be on the same scale, but this is no better than saying the holocaust never happened.
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Soliton Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Viet Nam
America had no business in Viet Nam, but common place attrocities as defined by the Geneva Accords did not take place.

If you think differently, offer proof.

Proof is what separates fact from fiction.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I don't know what kind of hairs you are splitting
Edited on Wed Sep-15-04 09:17 PM by G_j
or if you read the original article, but here is some more reading material:

http://www.accuracy.org/press_releases/PR082404.htm

Did the U.S. Commit War Crimes in Vietnam?



DAVID MacMICHAEL, dmacm@adelphia.net
A disabled veteran of ten years active Marine Corps service in Korea, MacMichael was a Defense Department consultant from 1965 to 1969 in Southeast Asia. During most of that period he was attached to the office of the Special Assistant for Counter-Insurgency at the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok. In that capacity he reviewed classified reports from the U.S. mission in Vietnam. MacMichael said today: "Some Vietnam veterans are outraged that presidential candidate Kerry in his 1971 Senate testimony spoke of atrocities reportedly committed by U.S. military forces in Vietnam. There is more than a little substance to the charge. The Toledo Blade won the 2004 Pulitzer Prize by revealing that in 1967 the 101st Airborne Division created a 'Tiger Force' ordered to kill all Vietnamese males in Quang Ngi Province. According to official U.S. Army records unearthed by the Blade reporters, Tiger Force killed many hundreds of Vietnamese and, yes, soldiers of that force did proudly ware necklaces of the ears they cut from their victims. The Army did investigate and identified the perpetrators of the crimes but chose not to prosecute them."

MacMichael added: "In 1968, Colonel George S. Patton III -- son of the World War II general -- then commanding a brigade in Vietnam, sent out Christmas cards showing dead Vietnamese stacked up Abu Ghraib-fashion with the message 'Peace on Earth' and signed by him and his wife.... And then, of course, there was My Lai. There, C Company of the 11th Brigade of the Americal Division in 1967 entered that village and methodically executed between 347 and 504 of its unarmed inhabitants, men, women and children. At least 100 of them were lined up in an irrigation ditch by Lt. William Calley and shot to death by his GIs. The slaughter only ended when the shocked crew of an Army helicopter gunship landed and forced C Company at gunpoint to cease and desist. My Lai was far from an exceptional case. In fact, it might never have come to light had not a troubled Americal Division mortarman, Tom Glen, who had not been present, heard about it and, after rotating out of Vietnam to the U.S., wrote to the U.S. commander in Vietnam, General Westmoreland. His letter only mentioned My Lai as 'part of the abusive pattern that had become routine in the Americal Division.'"


DAVID CLINE, daoudc@aol.com, www.veteransforpeace.org, www.vvaw.org, www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html
Currently national president of Veterans for Peace and a longtime coordinator of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Cline is a disabled combat veteran. He said today: "After 30 years, some people are trying to whitewash what happened in Vietnam."


S. BRIAN WILLSON, bw@brianwillson.com, www.brianwillson.com
Willson is a former Air Force captain who served in Vietnam. He said today: "As head of a 40-man USAF combat security unit in Vietnam, I was separately tasked to assess 'success' of targeted bombings. I discovered egregious war crimes -- daylight terror bombings of undefended fishing and rice farming villages resulting in mass murders and maimings of hundreds of residents. Subsequently, in conversations with members of the 9th Infantry Division, I heard bravado about slaughter of 11,000 'enemy' from ground operations, though the vast majority proved to be unarmed civilians."

....more....


------------------------------------------------------

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Tiger_force_120803.htm

Tiger Force (Vietnam) Uncovered and Exposed

Talk of the Town - COMMENT: UNCOVERED
Witness to Vietnam atrocities never knew about investigation

THE NEW YORKER, NOVEMBER 10, 2003
Talk of the Town, p.41

<snip>
At the height of the rampage, the Tiger Force platoon was operating a few dozen miles from a Quang Ngai hamlet that the Army called My Lai 4, and where, in March, 1968, more than five hundred Vietnamese civilians were massacred by a task force whose platoon leaders included William L. Calley, Jr. The Blade quoted a law professor as stating that My Lai might have been avoided if the senior officer corps had acted on complaints of military brutality in Quang Ngai that had been filed by at least two soldiers. The Blade further reported that in the early nineteen-seventies, after Calley's conviction for the murder of twenty-two Vietnamese civilians, in March, 1971, and while the Army was publicly insisting that My Lai was an isolated incident, senior officials in the White House and the Pentagon were provided with periodic reports on the Tiger Force inquiry.

In fact, while the Army was conducting its internal investigation of My Lai, it discovered that a second large massacre had taken place on the same day in the same area, in a hamlet known as My Khe 4, but Lieutenant General William R. Peers, who had served for more than two years in Vietnam and who led the investigation, publicly denied that there were any other incidents. "It was not brought out to me in the evidence," Peers told reporters at the close of the inquiry, and he was not challenged on that assertion, even though two Army officers who had been present at My Khe had already been charged with war crimes. Twenty years later, the Army declassified an April, 1970, memorandum to the General responding to an article I had written about My Lai. It noted that I did not appear to "possess any substantive information concerning the suppression or cover-up aspects of the incident," but that I was being aided in my reporting by someone with access to the official records. It concluded, "The need to terminate such assistance to Mr. Hersh becomes increasingly important when consideration is given to the use Mr. Hersh would make of any information he obtained concerning command reaction and efforts of suppression."

John Dean, the former White House counsel to President Nixon, acknowledged that he had received a series of reports from the Army on the status of pending war-crimes investigations, including My Lai, but that they gave no hint of the extent of the crimes. "It doesn't get to the top unless there's a problem," he told me last month. "I had no knowledge of My Lai"-that is, its full horror--"until it hit the press."

In war-crimes investigations, the disparity between the facts and the military's official versions of them has repeatedly been exposed, often with bruising consequences, by an independent press. The Blade's extraordinary investigation of Tiger Force, however, remains all but invisible. None of the four major television networks have picked it up (although CBS and NBC have been in touch with the Blade), and most major newspapers have either ignored the story or limited themselves to publishing an Associated Press summary. In a column published on the first day of the series, Ron Royhab, the Blade’s executive editor, pointedly wrote that the decision to run the Vietnam stories now had "nothing to do" with the current military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. As he told me, "We can't have this kind of information and sit on it, because then we'd be a party to a coverup." There is, of course, a hesitancy in time of war--and, in particular, during an increasingly unpopular war against an entrenched guerrilla enemy, to publish stories that could be interpreted as undermining military morale. And news organizations instinctively debunk scoops nom their competitors, especially those in smaller markets. It may be that others in the media are planning to do their own Tiger Force investigations. Let's hope so. Terrible things always happen in war, and the responsibility of the press is to do exactly what the Blade has done-to find, verify, and publish the truth.

-Seymour M Hersh
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Debs Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. I think the point
... of the right wing denying to the point of delusion that any attrocities were ever committed is to keep the tactic viable. Vietnam like Iraq was not the type of war that say WW2 was. It was a colonial war, where the object is to make the occupied people understand that they must accept our boot on their neck. They must accept control. In that sort of situation attrocities are not an inevitable byproduct, they are a crucial part of the overall plan. This has been true since at least the Assyrians. Terror must be sown. The object populace must be in complete fear or the colonization has no chance. Imperialism will not be viable without such colonialization, not that we want the territory but that we want the markets, resources or to stop an ideology there we cannot abide whatever we must control certain populations and it simply cannot be done without attrocities. The American people dont have the stomach for this and the right knows that very well so no discussion about attrocities that might bring this to light can be allowed. Therefore all attrocities in war MUST be denied to the end, its nessasary for propaganda purposes and the next war therefore its true for that reason that there never are any attrocities, if they happen only low level expendables can ever be even accused it must never be seen as policy at the same time it must be policy. Bringing all such attrocities to light is crucial until the truth becomes self evident, its the only slim chance of stopping them
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I think this proves John Kerry's testimony in the senate was accurate
even though this story occurs 30 years later. We have to admit that soldiers are under tremendous pressure and they do things as a group that they would not do as individuals. I agree with John Kerry in that its the system not the soldier that creates this problem:

"The cold-blooded slaughter of civilians in Haifa Street in central Baghdad on Sunday underscores the completely criminal character of the US occupation of Iraq. Day after day, scores of Iraqi civilians are being massacred in concerted offensive aimed at terrorising the population and stamping American control over the country in the leadup to next year’s elections."

That is how the rest of the world views this "Liberation" (Zell Miler's word, not mine) of Iraq.

For the entire article see: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/iraq-s14.shtml

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WEagle Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. "cold-blooded"
that is accurate. That is what people are afraid to face, that Americans could act this way. War brings out the very worst in people, especially when (such as in Vietnam and Iraq) there is really no legitimate reason the war.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I totally agree that people are in denial about the capacity
for cruelness that is in all of us. That is why people are so anxious to believe Kerry was lying during his testimony. It flies in the face of what they want to believe.

However, too many studies have shown people behave in groups in ways they never would as individuals. And, once you dehumanize the enemy (which is what, I think, normal people have to do in order to kill), anything becomes possible. Add piss-poor leadership to the mix and a policy of torture and what we have in Iraq today is what one can expect...
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I've read
that the war against the Nazis was not known for marked cruelty and hatred against the German people, but I really don't know.
At least the troops knew WHY they were fighting.


**The bombing of Dresden was wrong though, in that it also targeted civilians.
Hiroshima a Nagasaki fall into this category also.
I don't think these type of actions should ever be rationalized.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Germany also had a real front and soldiers in uniform
once you introduce the paranoia of not knowing who the enemy is, I think you've introduced a whole new psychological element not seen in WWI or WWII. It's just a thought.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. very good point
Vietnam was basically a civil war and Iraq seems to be verging on it.
In both cases soldiers believed the initial reasons given for war but after being on the ground many became/have become disillusioned on realizing they were/are brutalizing the very people who they thought they were 'saving'.


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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Actually, the Vietnamese fought French colonialism first and then
the US entered. The Vietnamese thought the US was the next wave of foreign imperialism. Like Iraqis, the Vietnamese are highly nationalistic. So I think the Vietnamese saw the war as a fight against imperialism and the US saw it as a war against the ideology of Communism.
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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. yeah, but the point is the same (guerrilla warfare v. uniformed
combat. BTW: has anyone ever pointed out to Bill O'Reilly the fact that the cheese eating surrender monkeys warned us not to get involved in Vietnam?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. true
though Vietnam was so entrenched as a French "colony" that the Vietnamese were also fighting against other Vietnamese in the "class" war/war against "imperialism".


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Soliton Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Cally
Lt. Cally wasn't charged with killing "hundreds" of civillians. He was convicted of murdering 22. He received life in prison with hard labor. The military did their job prosecuting the scum. Nixon pardoned him.
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yelladawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. War is hell and hell is full of heros
People, from the beginning of time to now. Nothing has changed in war. It has always been brutal. I don't care how technical it can get, it ain't over till someone with a rifle is standing on the real estate he controls.

War is hell and hell is full of heros. Don't questions the actions of combat warriors until you have lived through your first fire fight.

3/17 Air Cav
Nam 70-71-72
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. It ain't over till the door hits the conquistadors in the ass
...on the way out.
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lthuedk Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. The indiscriminate nature of war
Thank you for sharing. May I add:

http://www.light-to-dark.com/neocon.html

http://www.light-to-dark.com/mininuke.html

Best regards,

Stephen Pitt

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-15-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. truly awesome Stephen!
:yourock:
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lthuedk Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-16-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thank you very much!...
...Working with pictures has helped me integrate the nasty stuff better than writing it out-especially during these times. -sp
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. welcome to DU ! ..and.......
I've posted one of your 'cartoons' here. Great stuff, I hope you stick around!

"Bushcroft"
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
25. kick
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