Bush the 'Deserter'

[rbrussell]

We're barking up the wrong tree with this 'deserter' and 'AWOL' nonsense. A major magazine (I think it was the New Republic, though I'm not sure) chased this down in 2000. Basically they concluded (and I agree) that Bush's service was normal.

He didn't fly in Alabama- and the commander doesn't remember him, but that really doesn't mean that he wasn't there. He was on non-flying duty and, really, he probably showed up and was given some make-work task and left. Not the stuff of John Kerry, but hardly 'deserting'.

Look, folks, we forget the context of all of this. George HW Bush wasn't yet President, Vice President, or CIA Director in 1972- I doubt if anything more than a little over the norm would have been done for him.

Basically, from what I understand, this is how it goes.

1) Bush does flight training and a year of service afterwards.
2) Bush does a partial year in Texas, a tiny bit of time in Alabama, and then a bunch of days at the end of the year in Texas.
3) Bush does a bunch of days in 1973, and ends up getting early because the aircraft that he flew (the F-102) was retired from service early.

Frankly, I think that the 'deserter' thing carries a far greater danger of hurting us than it does of helping us. Most people I know (who aren't already against Bush) regard such attacks as hysterical and unbelievable, much like they thought of 'October Surprise' and other such allegations.

Second, most people either assume that Bush simply avoided Vietnam with academic deferrments or, if they know he served in the National Guard, assume that he did so like Dan Quayle- two years in osome country club unit or something.

In reality- he was a trained fighter pilot, did two years on active duty, and volunteered for a longer-than-required term of service in order to fly a certian type of aircraft.

The entire 'AWOL' thing is nonsense which hurts us by making us sound extreme. Basically no one cared that Clinton dodged the draft- Bush, at best, can be accused of getting behind on his service days a little bit.

[LosinIt]

1. who is this us you are referring to??

you obviously are in the wrong place.

[rbrussell]

3. "Us"=Democrats

I didn't vote for George W. Bush, and I want to see a Democrat in the White House.

But we won't win with hysteria and extremism. We need to develop a real critique of real policies, not to respond with glib hysteria.

[aquart]

86. You're cute.

"Glib hysteria"?

Great meme. Notice the swipe at women in the "hysteria." It isn't manly to question AWOL's heroic service record.

Why do I feel these words were professionally selected?

[Wonk]

9. "us" = people who are ignorant of this

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php
(more links on Mike's site)

[Terwilliger]

15. So whaddya think, Wonk?

What should Clark have said?

[Wonk]

19. "The Boston Globe and Washington Post have both reported that

Bush was AWOL from his National Guard duties in 1972-73. Check out Michael Moore's website (or, if Clark had the links on his own website just say "Check out my website") for documentation. Michael Moore isn't just pulling his accusations out of thin air, and I really appreciate his support for my candidacy."

(my 2¢)

[Wonk]

42. "It's not a reckless charge unsupported by the facts, like you are

insinuating. I've done some research on this and it's well documented. Check out my website for more."




I think Clark's mistake tonight was not being fully prepared for the possibility of this question being asked. Like I said earlier in another thread my take on this is that Jennings tossed Clark a slow pitch right up the middle (as best he could without getting labeled anti-Bush himself) and Clark whiffed.

All the candidates should read up on this and be ready to talk about it in public whenever the opportunity presents itself.

(2 more ¢)

[Wonk]

79. 2 more ¢...

I'm glad the question was asked, and Clark didn't do so bad after all. Look at how many people are talking about it now, in one way or another, and deciding to look into it for themselves :think:

[bpilgrim]

81. i agree - having this 'OUT THERE' is definately a GOOD THING

and i salute jennings for BRINGING IT UP :toast:

the general could of done a dkVSdr jujitsu move on jennings and ask what the media have determined and where are there published conclusions for isn't that kinda of thing THEIR JOB :evilgrin:

and certainly all the canidates need to be up to date on WHY it is certainly REASONABLE to have DOUBT accorrding to the current PUBLIC RECORD and use EVERY OPPROTUNITY to CHALLENGE * and the media to set the RECORD straight.

you KNOW rove wouldn't hesitate and you know what the coach says about he who hesitaes ;->

:hi:

peace

[NNN0LHI]

115. Took you a little while but you came to the correct conclusion

This will eat at people who can only see the Chimp landing on an aircraft carrier like a war hero. This may not make it to the front page of the NYT but it will cause a lot of people to do their own checking. We have not heard the end of this either. And Clark would have only whiffed had he said Moore was wrong to suggest it. He didn't do that.

Don

[Demonaut]

35. lets see, liar, divider, murderer, drunkard, felon.......deserter just

rounds out the resume

[ProudGerman]

2. a certain type of aircraft

Yeah, one that was outdated and would ensure that he was never sent anywhere near combat.

[rbrussell]

12. You Might Think That...

But I couldn't possibly comment.

More seriously- I have no idea what the Texas Air National Guard was flying in 1968, but more likely the fastest aircraft in the TANG service at that time.

After all, no National Guard units were sent to Vietnam. But that's my guess- he wanted to fly a supersonic fighter. The other Air National Guard aircraft in those days probably would have been much older. I don't know- maybe even F-100's or something like that.

In any case, a lot of people would be impressed with his flying supersonic aicraft (and it would make the whole 'flight suit' thing better).

If we attack, he responds and we might have trouble. But the danger of our attacks will keep him from attacking and leave the public free to draw their own conclusions.

[aquart]

87. Gosh, you make a lot of assumptions.

None of them are attached to facts, however.

[RapidCreek]

112. No National Guard Units Served in Vietnam?

Where the hell did you glean that shining example of Glib Ignorance?

http://www.arng.army.mil/news/news_view.asp?nav_link_id=94&news_id=677
http://www.military.state.ky.us/kyngemus/by_armory/carrollton.htm
http://www.ngb.army.mil/gallery/heritage/indianarangers.shtml

While being a vocal supporter of the war in Vietnam Mr. Bush failed to check the box on is National Guard enlistment papers which indicated he would volunteer to SERVE IN OVERSEAS.

I would address you further but your motivations are obvious and your mission rather transparent.

RC

[dennis4868]

117. no National Guard units were sent to Vietnam?

If that is true where the hell is my father in law. He was in the national Gaurd and was sent to vietnam and never came back...please stick with the facts buster!

[bobbieinok]

122. WHY don't you read the info at http://www.awolbush.com??????

before you 'pooh-pooh' this????????

He got in because he was jumped over ca 1000 on the waiting list.

He made the lowest possible score on the test to be a pilot and was jumped over the people with better scores.

He refused to take a physical in 72 'because his dr wasn't available' (private dr for a military physical!!!!!!).

Some think he refused because it was the first time the military started doing random drug testing.

NO ONE has come forward who remembers him showing up at the AL national guard where he was supposed to be for ca 1 year.

DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE YOU TRY TO DOWNPLAY THIS

[madrchsod]

22. 50`s issue trainer

yes it was a early 100 series

[rbrussell]

41. No

It was the F-102. An interceptor, not a trainer. Late 1950's early 1960's.

[KG]

4. having your daddy bump you to the front of the line to get into

a stateside NG unit flying obsolete a/c *is* draft dodging.

[rbrussell]

17. No it isn't

It might not be 'good', but it's not draft dodging. Draft dodging isn't even quite what Bill Clinton did.

If you label getting a family deferrment, an academic deferment, or serving in the National Guard as 'draft dodging', then you're labelling a lot of people as draft dodgers who won't take very kindly to it.

In fact, you're labelling me as a 'draft dodger' then as well, and I don't much appreciate it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. Well, if the shoe fits

I come from a family of veterans who unfortunately did not come from privileged backgrounds. If you are here to defend class-based participation in war, you are going to get flamed. It's more noble to be a conscientous objector than to pull strings to let some poor white, black or latino kid get killed in your place in Vietnam.

[KG]

26. in fact?

did your daddy bump you to the front of the line to get into a stateside NG unit flying obsolete a/c?

no?

then my post does not in fact refer to you.

[rbrussell]

30. Well...

Not to say too much- but I didn't fly. But, you might say, my situation was broadly similar to Bush's. And so were those of many people.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

44. Not many people-WEALTHY people with connections

don't think we're that naive...

[rbrussell]

48. It was more than just 'wealthy' people

It was all sorts of people. With connections? Sure. But then, everyone uses their connections in life.

It wasn't wealth, it was people who knew people. At least, where I was. Sure, some were rich- but a lot of rich people simply got the right doctor to give them a hand. That's what Howard Dean seems to have done.

A lot of the rest of us had relatives who might have known people politically, or knew people within each state guard.

And it's a lot more people than you think. There were a good half-million or so people in the Guard alone during that time.

[aquart]

90. You got in a Dean slur! Damn, I'm impressed.

"Seems to have done."

Call back when you have a fact.

[goddess40]

111. Wrong

If any one who wasn't Bush didn't show up at an assigned base they would have been dishonorably discharged from the National Guard.

[Hailtothechimp]

29. So you avoided service? Bully for you.

But don't get on your high horse about anything.

[put out]

40. President Clinton did not dodge the draft.

He had some academic deferments, and then submitted himself to the draft. And, lucky for him, drew a high number. I would bet my right earlobe that his family was sitting and watching the numbers be called on television, the same as mine was for our brothers.

He didn't use family connections (didn't have any) or family funds (none of that either) to avoid service. Bush did.

[rbrussell]

45. Well

To be exact, he did the following:

1) Had an academic deferment.
2) Pretended to join the ROTC, and held the spot until he drew a high draft number.

It's as much 'draft dodging' as Bush was 'AWOL', at least- if not a bit more.

It was the letter that really bothered me at the time. I can understand wanting to avoid that war- I felt the same. But it was... taunting. I went into the both in 1992 planning on voting for Clinton, but voted for Perot instead because of it.

[pretzel4gore]

77. clinton was anti war!

...for chrissake a nuclear power which had put men on the moon was attacking a poor little 3rd world country which had enough of the west's (france) goddam imperialism....MLK was assasinated in part cuz he began commenting on the stupid war (which henry kissinger, at last count, admitted wasn't 'necessary')
the 56 thousand americans who died in 'Nam did so defending their country....and now the warhawks admit it wasn't 'necessary'
sheees
clinton opposed the unjust war..bush undoubtedly was all for it

[davidinalameda]

55. its pretty close

to draft dodging when your family pulls strings to keep you from going overseas

the Bush family was connected--remember that Grandpa Bush was a Senator

Bush didn't get a student deferral, family deferral--what he did get was special treatment because of who is family is

[RapidCreek]

110. I label someone a draft dodger who "supports a war" and does

everything in his power to avoid fighting in it. If you fall under that heading I don't much care whether you appreciate it or not.

Here is an excerpt from a post I made on this very subject about a year ago....enjoy the read.

I am a veteran, as is almost every male member of my family prior to 1985.
We have fought in every war from the Spanish American War to Vietnam, with the exception of
Korea....perhaps prior wars as well but no history is available.


George W. Bush was a vocal supporter of of the police action in Vietnam. I
won't belabor the point of how he got into the Texas Air National Guard
ahead over 400 already on the waiting list. I won't belabor the point that
he declined the opportunity given on his enlistment papers to serve
overseas. I won't belabor the point that he disobeyed orders and failed to
show up for drug testing and a mandatory physical and as a result was
forbidden to fly. I won't belabor the point that his being forbidden to fly,
effectively wasted the 200,000 to 1,000,000 dollars worth of US taxpayers
money spent to train him. I won't belabor the point that he went AWOL by
UCMJ legal definition and got away with it. What I will belabor is the fact
that George W. Bush stood in front of my countries flag, a flag which my
family has protected for the past hundred years, and SWORE, with one hand on
his heart:

I, George W. Bush
Do solemnly swear
That I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States
Against all enemies, foreign and domestic
That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same
and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States
and the orders of the officers appointed over me
According to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice

SO HELP ME GOD

This was a pledge of commitment. It was a pledge made under the eyes of God
to fellow country men. It is a pledge that George W. Bush failed to fulfill;
a failure borne not of hardship or the fortitude of principle but of
arrogance and privilege.

As a US veteran, I find the man, George W. Bush and anyone who attempts to
defend or excuse his dishonor to our flag, our constitution, God and our
country, contemptible and unpatriotic.

He has no business being our president and certainly no business being
Commander and Chief of the United States Military. He has no business
expecting young men and women to live up to a commitment that he himself
decided was not worth living up to. My head hangs in shame that this man
represents our country to the world.

Sincerely,


RC
USN VET

[MariaS]

5. What do you mean

by Active Duty?

In reality- he was a trained fighter pilot, did two years on active duty, and volunteered for a longer-than-required term of service in order to fly a certian type of aircraft.


Sorry I'm not very up on things military because I thought active duty would mean he went to war? Could you explain for me. Thanks

[Catch22Dem]

23. no

Active Duty referrs to folks who serve in the military full time. I was active duty Air Force. I never served in combat, but the Air Force was my full time job. Most Guard/Reserves are part timers. They serve one weekend a month and have a regular job the rest of the time. Sometimes Guard/Reserves get "activated" like the ones in Iraq right now. They're now doing one year tours there. Very sad actually.

[MariaS]

46. Thanks

for clearing that up for me.

[rbrussell]

49. Exactly

He seems to have been on 'active duty' for two years of: basic, officer training, and flight training.

[Catch22Dem]

70. Dude, you're so far off base it's hard to even argue

Do some ACTUAL research and come back later.

[Bandit]

128. Speaking of Officer training

Maybe you could explain how Bush* received his commission and the time frame for it. I have always wondered what spectacular thing he did to receive a commission faster than any other individual that wasn't awarded a battlefield commission. It should be something pretty spectacular and I'm amazed he isn't bragging about it.

[RapidCreek]

119. George Bush was never active duty....

If he had been active duty during a time of war...his failure to report for duty would have been termed Desertion not Away With Out Leave.

RC

[Jaybird]

6. whats that smell?

smells like bullshit to me......can i get an amen?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

11. Amen brother

it smells like more than bullshit to me...seems someone stumbled upon the wrong website.

[i_am_not_john_galt]

82. Don't you know that democrats here

don't much go for dissent? Fall in line, soldier!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

113. Dissent is patriotic, posting bullshit is not

there is plenty of evidence presented here. If the original poster has reading comprehension issues, that is not dissent but sheer ignorance.

[RapidCreek]

114. No Democrats here don't much go for vapid ignorance.

The only line we expect our members to fall into is one of honest informed debate.

Glaringly transparent attempts to market Bullshit won't go unnoticed or unchallenged. We love dissent....what we have a problem with is provocateurs deliberatly espousing fallacy built upon the arrogant assumption that we are ill-informed.

If some pansy neocon is seeking to cut his or her teeth in the art of deception, disinformation and obfuscation this is not the place to do it. It certainly ain't the place to do it if you plan to cry like a little girl when you get called on it.

RC

[aquart]

91. Right website. Very professional message.

It's the unctuousness that gives it away. That, and the smell.

[Hailtothechimp]

24. Amen brother! And go Cubs!

[madrchsod]

28. yes amen brother

some people should read all the documents and know alittle about what was happening in the 60-70`s and how rich kids got away with shit.
i feel the power of the holy ghost wrestling with the wicked..can i get a witness!!!

[Demonaut]

37. amen

[Kathy in Cambridge]

7. His family has been part of the American Aristocracy

and well-connected for years.

Bush was a deserter-here is a website that provides links to the actual documents:

http://www.awolbush.com/

[Lars39]

8. You're behind in your reading. Here's a thread with lot's of links:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1047177

[Terwilliger]

10. see? this story is already being spun down and Clark didnt want to answer

oh well

[mike1963]

13. There is no way to reply to this farrago of idiocy without egregiously

violating the rules.

[Quixote1818]

14. Two Websites That Say Otherwise

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html
http://www.awolbush.com/

Bush failed to show up for Duty a few times but no one said anything because his Dad was a Big Shot. Michael Moore is basicaly right. I am glad Clark did not give into the FOX Bastards! If he had I would have been pissed.

[rbrussell]

25. No

The first article basically says that Moore is not right.

Frankly, it's unclear because no one ever thought that the guy would be running for President.

You have to understand what the National Guard of that era was like- it wasn't nearly was integrated into the regular force. It was more of a... well, I don't want to say 'club'- but it wasn't taken quite as seriously.

Basically, Bush missed a few days of service and later made them up.

Even the first article gets one basic fact wrong- the reason he was granted an early discharge is that the F-102 was retired.

Like I said, I don't want to really argue the details.

I'm just telling you: this attack won't work. It turns me off, and I'm a registered Democrat who's voted for most of the Democratic Presidential candidates over the last thirty-six years. (I voted for Bush in 1988, Reagan in 1984 and 1980 and Nixon in 1972- but voted for Gore in 2000, Clinton in 1996, Perot in 1992, Carter in 1976, and Humphery in 1968).

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catch22Dem]

33. Me?????

This wasn't meant for me was it?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

32. If you're not here to argue details, why did you start the thread?

You're new to DU so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but so far your assertions have not been backed up with links.

Why do you think you speak for all Democrats? We are living in a time of war where over 500 soldiers have come home in bodybags and thousands more are gravely injured. I think that when an AWOL president and his chickenhawk buddies start a deadly war, most people-including many veterans I know-are angry about Bush's military record.

[KG]

47. dude, you need to be ready to 'argue the details'

DUer's are hyper-informed.

better have your facts straight and be ready to back-up any assertions you make here.

[Terwilliger]

53. that is a serious republican streak

you sure you're in the right place? if so, why?

[rbrussell]

64. Well..

I'm a registered Democrat, gave money to Dean this year- and the last time I voted for a Republican for President was in 1988. That was the last time Wes Clark did the same, IIRC.

[Terwilliger]

66. nice to see you keeping up

why did you vote for Reagan and Bush?

[rbrussell]

73. Well

1) I voted for Reagan in 1980 because, under Carter, the economy was so terrible and the Iranian crisis was badly mishandled.
2) I voted for Reagan in 1984 because I was doing fine (and not that interested in politics).
3) I voted for Bush in 1988 because I supported Al Gore in the primaries and he lost- and I didn't like Mike Dukakis.

[RapidCreek]

123. Interesting....so why are you a registered Democrat now?

RC

[put out]

54. He disappeared for more than a year.

He petitioned to be transferred; his superiors balked because his (incomplete) flight training would not have serviced the Guard in Alabama. He got the transfer anyway. Um, also was disinclined to report for his flight medical. I believe the reason he gave was that when his flight medical came due, his personal physician was in TX and he was, well, he's not quite sure. By the way, Flight Surgeons (the doctors able to clear a pilot to fly) are all over the place, including Alabama. A personal doc probably isn't qualified.

After his going missing for so long, he reappeared in TX and did weekend duty for a while, then got an early out to go to grad school at Harvard.

This post is scattered, but I do not understand why this issue is not important. I know people killed, and many still bearing scars, from a war W. fled.

[atre]

56. How closely did you read the first article?

nm

[DieboldMustDie]

62. 4 Democratic votes in 9 elections is not "most."

;)

[RapidCreek]

121. Guess these guys were in the wrong "club" eh?

http://www.ngb.army.mil/gallery/heritage/indianarangers.shtml

You don't want to argue the details because you obviously don't know what the details are. I love folks like yourself who make blanketly ignorant assertions then fall back on "I don't want to discuss the details".

What attack? Is stating that the sky is blue an attack? Certainly not....it is pointing out a fact. If you were to find that fact unpalatable that doens't make it an attack.

If someone cheats and you point out that they are cheating, is that an attack? If someone lies and you point out that they are lieing, is that an attack?

If I were to call you an Asshole.....that would be an attack.

RC

[Bandit]

130. Wasn't it Harry Truman who said "I don't give Republicans hell ~ I give

them the truth and they think it is hell"

[RapidCreek]

133. Sounds like Harry....

:)

[jonoboy]

16. sounds a bit fishy to me..why not tell it like it is..he's a chicken hawk

must mean the 'deserter' tag strikes home..ramp it up I say.

[Trajan]

18. Bullshit ....

The Apologia of Hypocrisy is unbecoming a True Democrat ....

[Hailtothechimp]

20. sounds like you got the talking points from somebody.

Let's go over this. It's clear there are a few things you are missing. First off, bu$h NEVER got anywhere near Vietnam. Why, you ask? Because someone (I forget the name, but someone here probably knows it) made a phone call and got him in to the TANG. It didn't matter that he scored 25 out of 100 on the pilot's aptitude test. I am quite skeptical that this 25 was legit, but I can't prove that so I'll let it go. It didn't matter that hundreds of men scored higher and were more qualified. All that mattered was his Daddy was in Congress and knew the right people. So some other guy (whose daddy wasn't in Congress) had to go to Vietnam. Some guy's name is up on the Wall, for his friends and family to etch over with charcoal, while this disgrace ruins our country. He better be called out on this, and the media needs to go after this. If they won't, because they are afraid George the Lesser won't like it, Michael Moore will take up the slack. He's the real patriot in all of this.

[mike1963]

27. And he did NOT check the box that asked if he would accept foreign

active duty (i.e. VietNam)
That is just one of the many documents available on the web, most probably at awolbush.com

[rbrussell]

36. He Didn't...

Score '25' he scored in the twenty-fifth percentile. In other words, his score was in the top 25% of all scores. Not exceptional, but not terrible either. By all accounts he was a good enough pilot, so I doubt the tests were fudged.

Second, when you insult him so egreigiously over something that:
1) You all defended in Bill Clinton (and, other than the trickery involved, so did I).
2) A lot of people did.

You turn people off. People like me. I'm all for gay rights, choice, and so much of the Democratic agenda- but I won't vote for Wesley Clark if he launches attacks (or supports attacks) like this.

[markses]

69. That's not what percentile means in any percentile test I've ever seen

If you score in the 25th percentile, that means you did better than 25% of the other test-takers. In other words, you did worse than 75% of the other test takers. At least that's how it works in the SATs, GREs, etc. etc. You want a 99th percentile GRE score (on a given section), not a 1 percentile. Now, maybe these military tests are scored backwards - I have no way of knowing - but if 25 percentile means TOP 25 percent for this test, it is the absolute reverse of the meaning of percentile on any other test I'm aware of.

On edit: Here's a full-bore apologia from the Washington Times which tries to finesse the fact that Bush scored in the LOWER THAN 75% of the other test-takers, proving that my understanding of percentile (that is, the standard understanding), is in fact correct even for this test, while your own claim is just plain old WRONG:

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040114-074349-3947r.htm

Bush's other published scores are from the Air Force officer test he took when he applied to join the Air National Guard. The Dallas Morning News reported on July 4, 1999, that Bush's "score on the pilot aptitude section, one of five on the test, was in the 25th percentile, the lowest allowed for would-be fliers."

Gottfredson pointed out, though, that officer applicants are a relatively elite group, so that's much better than the 25th percentile among the whole population. Further, this subtest focused on spatial questions that don't come up regularly in the Oval Office, such as "identifying the angle of a plane in flight ... and figuring out which way a gear in a machine would turn in response to another gear's being turned."

In contrast, the Morning News recounted, "On the 'officer quality section,' designed to measure intangible traits such as leadership, Mr. Bush scored better than 95 percent of those taking the test."

Gottfredson commented, "What do you want in a president -- spatial ability or leadership?"
------snip----------

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

80. I scored 95 on the Air Force pilot exam

That means that I scored better than 95 percent of the people who took the test at the same time. In our ROTC unit, you had to get at least 40 to be considered for UPT (Undergraduate Pilot Training).

"His score (25) was in the top 25% of all scores" is incorrect. "His score of 25 meant that 75 per cent of all applicants scored higher than Bush* did," would be an accurate statement of the facts.

[Stuckinthebush]

118. Educational Researcher here....

25th percentile means that a score is higher than 24 percent of the test takers. This also means that the score is lower than 75% of the test takers. Also, it means that the score is 25% lower than the average.

In non-Educational Researcher speak - 25th percentile sucks.

To take a phrase from Mr. Bush himself - That's one terrible pilot.

[RapidCreek]

127. Thanks for pointing this out....

the misdirection this person seems intent on pushing forth is incredible. I don't believe anyone could possibly be that illinformed yet speak with such authority.

RC

[RapidCreek]

126. He scored the lowest score possible to qualify for flight training

More on the illustrious military career of GWB

http://www.deal-with-it.org/spades/awol_bush.htm

The difference between Bush and Clinton is that Bush was a vocal supporter of the war in Vietnam and avoided fighting in it. Bill Clinton was a detractor of the war in Vietnam and avoided fighting in it.

What do you mean by "the Democratic agenda". Plenty of Republicans believe in a womans right to decide whether or not she wants to bring joined gametes to term. Further I would suggest that quite a few Republicans are gay and I would suspect they feel they are protected by the same constitutional liberties as any other American.

The Democratic agenda isn't about 'Gay Rights' It is about rights...period. Equal rights for ALL americans, regardless of religion, skin color, national origin, or sexual orientation. That's what America is about.

RC

[aquart]

92. Marty Heldt is the man to thank.

He is an Iowa farmer, and he did the work.

[kentuck]

34. Isn't there a written record of such things ?

Somewhere? Or were they taken to Denver and destroyed?

[rbrussell]

38. This...

Was in the pre-computer age. And, especially in some paper National Guard unit in Alabama, the best of records were probably not kept up.

It would not have been at all out of order for him to, having been placed on temporary duty, show up with nothing to be done. Given some meaningless task, and then go. All in a day or so. And who, after thirty years, would remember that? I can't remember things that happened last year.

[Terwilliger]

57. you're apologizing for what is a serious question

Tell me...do you think the Pukes would question a Democrat with a similar iffy record on whether they showed up for duty during wartime?

[rbrussell]

61. Well...

By the period in question the war itself (except for a few troops) was over, in any case.

Second, I don't think that there are real questions- just ones raised to keep what should be a long-dead issue alive.

Third, it wouldn't stick. Come now- do you remember some of what Al Gore said about his Vietnam record in 1988? I was really for him, in part because of it (strong on defense), but then I learned the truth.

Frankly the majoirty of the people who became politicians on either side avoided the war by one means or another, so neither is quite eager to talk about it.

And I don't think that voters care much, either, frankly. If they did, they'd have made John McCain President in 2000. ALl this does is cater to ultra-partisan Democrats and prevent us from reaching out.

[Terwilliger]

65. This is all hit and run...what about Al Gore? what story are you referring

to?

So, you don't think it's important for anybody to tear Bush a new one over the FACT that he's as military as a slug? Why shouldn't that be important to people who want to vote for him on military bona fides?

[Cat Atomic]

75. Catering to ultra partisan Democrats?

Every person I've talked with about this issue (all blue collar, mostly veteran, only mildly interested of politics), have been shocked and angered by it.

These are people who actually went to Vietnam, or served. People who didn't have the benefit of a well connected family or tons of cash. It matters to us plebeians- believe it.

[aquart]

94. A Gore smear?

Cool. You got Dean and Clinton, now Gore. Can you manage the other candidates? Come on, I have faith in you.

[KG]

63. bush apologists

always an amusing read.

[aquart]

93. The army didn't lose the payslips.

It recorded what and when he was paid.

Yes, some records were cleansed by someone with a nice job in the current adminstration, but Marty put the story together from the most mundane of records.

You REALLY might want to look at them.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

39. Didn't you also say to strengthen the Patriot Act?

Hardly a "Democratic" position. In fact, a lot of libertarians and Republicans are afraid of it too.

This coupled with your defense of Bush's AWOL status doesn't lend you a lot of credibility...

[rbrussell]

50. Well

I consider myself a moderate Democrat in a lot of ways. I'm very liberal in others.

I'd like to see US power gradually fade in support of a new world order and I'm about as socially liberal as you'll find.

But, most of all, I believe in practical politics. I want to win in November, not satisfy myself emotionally.

I've been through all of this before- in 1984, when we went for Mondale (and I voted for Reagan) and in 1988, same deal, same with 1972. It hurt me to vote for Nixon, but I did it because McGovern was out there.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

51. Transparent.

This has become tiresome. I'm off to bed.

'Night.

[Stephanie]

74. Ah yes! Welcome. Join us Comrade -

as we usher in the New World Order. Let's discuss this while we take a short ride in my black helicopter. Ah! There it is now! Ready?

[aquart]

95. Define "new world order."

I've always wondered what the hell that was.

[RapidCreek]

129. Let's see now....

You voted for Nixon, you voted for Reagan, and you voted for Bush....Hmmm Yea you sound like a Democrat to me.

What is a "new world order". Why on earth would you want to see US power fade? These are NOT Democratic positions, my friend....not even close.

You have become tedious....I'll waste no more time on you.

RC

[grytpype]

43. Anyone else find it surprising that Bush learned to fly?

It's so out of character.

[KelleyKramer]

52. Sorry, but it’s a FACT ... Bush was a Deserter

Hate to bust your bubble, but it really is true.

"it's well documented that George W. Bush never showed up for National Guard duty for a period of approximately one year, possibly more, in 1972-1973. "

AWOL----absent for 30 days or less.

Desertion-----absent for more than 30 days with evidence of no intent to return to duty.


Bush not only was AWOL, but after 30 days he was officially a deserter from the military.





After 30 days George Bush was reported missing, after another few months, on Aug 1 1972 George Bush had his flying rights officially suspended ..




I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you, but the facts are what they are, and George W Bush deserted the military.

More info is here: http://www.awolbush.com/


Official military documents regarding George W Bush are here--
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm


And if you STILL don’t believe it, then if you can prove he wasn’t AWOL/Deserter then there are thousand of dollars in CASH rewards waiting for you!

More info on the reward is here: http://www.awolbush.com/

[rbrussell]

58. Right There...

His flying rights were suspended because he missed his flight physical.

But it makes perfect sense that he'd miss his flight physical, since he was in Alabama and assigned to a non-flying unit.

I can't 'prove it' to a lot of you, it seems, for the same reasons I can't prove that there wasn't a conspiracy to kill President Kennedy.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

59. Transparent. Tiresome. Ill-Informed.

:eyes:

[Terwilliger]

67. he's not supposed to miss any physicals

no matter how lax the national guard is, I bet a black kid from the bayou would STILL be in the klink for missing a physical

[KelleyKramer]

68. The physical excuse is another lie

As for his suspension, you ignore the first document showing clearly that he was AWOL from duty.


And the excuse about his doctor being in TX is nothing but a bold face LIE.

"...flight physicals can be administered only by certified Air Force flight surgeons, and some were assigned at the time to Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, where Bush was living."

http://web.archive.org/web/20000816165911/http://www.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/Republican_ticket_lets_a_military_connection_slip+.shtml

[put out]

72. Flight physical. Given by a Flight Surgeon. Even in Alabama.

He was assigned to a non-flying unit. Which, was probably safer since he had requested a non-flying unit which didn't have the one obsolete plane he was not qualified to fly. Fortunate for all of us, except the people who really did their job, and paid beyond measure.

[Bridget Burke]

97. Another correction here.....

You mentioned that his service history included some time for "officer training". That's not true. He didn't go to OCS, but received a "special commission" after finishing Basic. Special commissions are rarely given--usually for surgeons & such. People with special talents.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss all these details again. It's an opportunity to redefine the word "chickenhawk". Many in my generation opposed the war; they didn't want to go but didn't want others to do so, either. The group that thought the war was fine & were of the age to go--but didn't--are the Chickenhawks.

So, this Chickenhawk needed help. He was placed in the TANG ahead of hundreds on the waiting list. Received a "special" commission. Trained in an obsolescent jet NOT used in Southeast Asia. Then, couldn't even finish his cushy hitch.

Now he's sending thousands off to die. Many from National Guard & Reserve units. (Did you know that planes from his old unit helped escort Air Force 1 September 11th, when he was keeping out of "harm's way"?)

AWOL? Deserter? Spoiled rich kid? Chickenhawk? Let's keep the discussion open. (Somebody must be very nervous about all this.)

[bobbieinok]

124. Yes - Yes - Yes Great summary

...

[The Night Owl]

60. So, why has your explanation not been the same one offered by Bush?

If your explanation of Bush's apparent failure to report for duty in 1972 were correct, Bush would have put that same explanation out there by now. So far, Bush and his managers have failed to respond adequately to charges that Bush deserted in 1972. According to Bush and his people, Bush was honorably discharged and that is all there is to it.

By the way, why the hell do people have such a difficult time believing the notion that Bush might have been a deserter? Bush, who admits to having had a serious drinking problem when he was young, might have been deep in the throws of alcoholism in 1972 and thus too out of sorts to finish his military service. Is that really so inconceivable?

When Bush decided to blow off his military duty, the life he saved may have been his own. Obviously, airplanes and drinking problems do not mix well. Of course, Bush's commanders would never have allowed him to get near a plane if he were obviously drunk or strung out, but being drunk or strung out would have gotten Bush in a lot of hot water with his superiors. Dubya getting kicked out of the military for being an alcoholic and/or a drug user would have been unacceptable to his Poppy.

Yes, I am speculating when I charge that Bush was too much of a lush to finish his military service in 1972, but then again, Rbrussel's explanation of Bush's apparent desertion is also nothing more than speculation. At least my speculation is based on known facts.

Bush was a deserter, but what is worse is that he deserted duty that was granted to him as a gift that would keep him out of the Vietnam war.

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=233&row=4

[librechik]

71. Lt. Col Bill Burkett--refused to falsify military records for W

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/what_do_you_say_032203.htm

snip
"In January of 1998 and what seems like a full lifetime ago, I was stricken by a deadly case of meningoencephalitis. I was returning from a short duty trip to Panama as a team chief to inspect the hand over of Ft. Clayton to the Panamanians. I had been 'loaned' from the senior staff and state planning officer of the Texas National Guard to the Department of the Army for a series of these special projects after angering George W. Bush by refusing to falsify readiness information and reports; confronting a fraudulent funding scheme which kept 'ghost' soldiers on the books for additional funding, and refusing to alter official personnel records
snip

Oh, I suppose Lt. Col Burkett is lying to just to smear your buddy Bush too. Poor guy, everybody (and all that mysteriously missing documentary evidence) is out to make Shrubbie look bad, when he's really just a good American. Just because he has every motive to lie and looks like he has something to hide doesn't mean he's guilty.

So why doesn't he step forward to clear all this up?

Because the documents are mysteriously missing, that's why. He can't prove he's innocent, and thanks to his pressure tactics, no one can prove he's guilty. How convenient. It's not like he had access to legal documents in the military...oh, right he did!

This is getting boring. You are obviously just here to boost your post count. That's the difference between DUers and freepers. DUers will actually listen and have open minds. Freepers are head copped little robots who only know the word "no."

[Wapsie B]

76. Oh PULEEZ!

The evidence is there. Don't blame us because the media dropped the ball on this.

[0007]

120. Every issue of junior's life has been scrubbed

Even Laura Bush's auto accident in Midland Texas.

[diamond14]

78. bush* should just release his military records, like other politicians

and public official do....it seems real odd that bush* refuses to release those military records...it would immediately clear up all issues involved....

[i_am_not_john_galt]

83. Look, it's clear that

you are a manchurian voter. You claim to support the liberal agenda but you've revealed that you disagree with the DU orthodoxy in several areas. Therefore you must not belong here, even if you yourself do not know it. Your disturbing tendency to think for yourself and reject some arguements you find on the Internet (just who do you think you ARE?) reveal that you are, in fact, a freeper and neo-con at heart.

Please check in for your deprogramming at your earliest convenience.

[bobbieinok]

125. so you too think W did not go AWOL????????

Why don't you read the documentation??????????????????

"There is none so blind as one who WILL NOT SEE."

[KelleyKramer]

84. THANK YOU for posting this

I want to give my heartfelt personal thanks to you for posting the comments about this issue.

To be honest, there are so many things going on I had almost forgotten about the comments by Peter Jennings about Bush being a Deserter from the military during a time of war.

Obviously I needed motivation, because I had done nothing until seeing your post.

Your comments and responses gave me the motivation (and drive) to go ahead and dig up all the facts. For that, I give you thanks.

Without you I would have probably never dug all the facts up again (this is an old issue for us here on DU) and put them together.

I took all the documents and comments from my responses to you and put them together in an email and sent it to 75,000 friends.

Some would say I'm lazy for not doing that to begin with (I still claim there is too much to do and too little time) but in any case you were the one who provided the motivation.

YOU made it happen, and I thank you.

Please post again!


THANKS

[aquart]

85. Do you have any idea who you're talking to?

Many of us followed this from the beginning, from Marty Heldt's first examination of the FOIA documents.

No, the little shit didn't do normal service. If he had, it wouldn't have been necessary to post his name in the Colorado no show unit.

He failed to take a required physical, the first in which he might have been subjected to a drug test. That's why his flying privileges were revoked. (Really interesting is the other guy who lost his flying privileges at the same time....the dear fellow who brought George that fine business partner, bin Ladin, for his first business, Arbusto.) He never flew again for his country, after all that expensive training.

And then he simply walked out. Two veterans groups have posted rewards in the thousands of dollars for anyone who can swear to having worked with or even seen Bush at his Alabama unit, but the money has gone unclaimed because he never reported for duty.

The records were put online. Anyone can see them. Now, WHO does it hurt to tell the truth?

[Democat]

88. Who are "we" or "us"?

Sounds suspicious.

[JCMach1]

89. Dead Wrong...

http://www.thesyndrome.com/archives/bushfiles1.doc

Feel free to cirulate this pamphlet...

[Piperay]

96. WRONG...

It doesn't hurt us because it is true, it hurts the chickhawk chimp because it is true.

[Q]

98. Yet another 'this is going to hurt US' thread....

- We seem to get several of them a week. 'We' should expect even more as the election draws near.

- This is a poor try at revisionism...especially the part that says 'no one cared that Clinton dodged the draft'. Are you kidding? The GOPers spent eight years harping on the fact that he didn't 'serve'. We even heard rude comments about this from Republican congressmen from the floor. Many Republicans thought Clinton didn't have the 'right' to attend Veteran's functions or act as CIC because of his past.

- WE remember how the Right treated Clinton over the service issue. Why is it that YOU don't seem to remember?

- Bush* offended the whole world...given his poor service record...when he strutted around on the carrier pretending to be some kind of fighter pilot war hero. He once implied that he had seen action in Vietnam...but he has never been anywhere NEAR any kind of action that would put him in harm's way.

[Nlighten1]

99. It is NOT normal to miss an entire year of duty.

Moran

[BiggJawn]

100. Go tell Karl we're not buying today....

"He didn't fly in Alabama- and the commander doesn't remember him, but that really doesn't mean that he wasn't there."

Doesn't really mean he WAS there, either.

I'm surprised you haven't been "stoned" yet, your message is SO contrived....

[JiveTalker]

101. That's crap.

He was hiding is his momma's house suckling on a silver nipple.

[Lost4words]

102. Jennifer Flowers was pre president for Clinton, did pukes drop?

no. I say no freebees for asswipe.

[DoYouEverWonder]

103. Show me Bu$h's military records

Oh you can't do that because Bu$h has refused to release them? If he has nothing to hide and fulfilled his duty then why won't he release them? It sure would put an end to all these questions about his military service if he did. Until then, I will continue to assume that the reports of him going AWOL are true.

[Q]

105. Bush Aides Possibly Altered National Guard Records...

Bush Aides Possibly Altered National Guard Records To Conceal Grounding and Missed Duty

by Bob Fertik
November 4, 2000

Aides to Texas Governor George W. Bush visited the Air National Guard
archives at Camp Mabry in 1997 and possibly altered Bush's military service
records to conceal Bush's grounding from flight in 1972 and subsequent
missed duty, according to a former senior official of the Texas National Guard.

Bill Burkett, a Lt. Colonel who was the State Plans Officer of the Texas
National Guard at the time, said Bush operative Dan Bartlett headed a high-level operation to "scrub" Bush's Air National Guard record, to make sure it was in synch with the biography that the campaign was preparing.

The book, "A Charge to Keep," was authored by Bush and his principal
spokeswoman, Karen Hughes. Hughes was recently exposed during the DUI
sidebar involving reporter Wayne Slater as the person who strictly controls
what Bush is allowed to say.

At the time, Bartlett was Governor Bush's liaison to the Texas National Guard.
Bartlett is now the campaign spokesman who has provided misleading
information to the press on several occasions about Bush's military service.

In "A Charge to Keep," Bush briefly mentioned his National Guard ser

[0007]

104. George W. Bush was arrested for cocaine in 1972

It was said junior was doing community service at Martin Luther King Jr. Community Center in Houston Texas, " the presidential hopeful was arrested for cocaine possession in 1972 and had his record expunged in exchange for community service at Project P.U.L.L, in Houston"

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/10/18/cocaine/

Perhaps junior wasn't indeed in Alabama but was in Hoston Texas

[NewJeffCT]

107. Project Pull?

Sounds like another Republican saved by the government teat...

[0007]

108. I wonder if Project P.U.L.L. receives a big donation

from George Walker Bush & Kenny Lay as does MD Anderson in Houston Texas?

Project P.U.L.L. is the organization that junior allegedly did community service, for his cocaine arrest in 1972.

http://www.projectpull.org/projpull.html

Can this be just smoke and no fire?

[Bridget Burke]

109. Details are unclear....

He definitely did the community service, but the coke bust is not well documented.

However, he's been known to tout volunteerism. It's odd that he never spoke movingly of this episode in his life. He's never mentioned it, to my knowledge.

Of course, it would help if someone could actually ask him a few questions! About his TANG days. About his drug use. About anything at all. His handlers keep him well insulated.

[markus]

106. No. 3 is untrue. The aircraft was not retired from service in the TANG

until after Bush left.

I don't think this is a "silver bullet", but I think Jennings ought to have to fess up that he was flat out wrong in his statement.

The question is: do you want a man who certainly understands how to avoid military service, or one who served two tours in Vietman under fire (presuming Kerry is the nominee)? If it's Dean, we have to take Bush*'s creds down a notch as well.

[Skittles]

116. are you a veteran?

I really, REALLY hope not

[Dees]

131. Here's my take. General Clark might have responded

by saying..."Look Peter, those charges have been around for a long time. You're in the news reporting business. You do an in depth discovery regarding this matter and report it on your evening news broadcast. What I will say is this; I'll match my service record against the service record of (p)resident Bush*".

Personally as a combat veteran I'll say this. MonkeyBalls is a fictitious chickenshit chickenhawk lying phony deserter. When I was in the Army my exact whereabouts was known at all times. The military is very precise about record keeping. The coke head was MIA.

We should not let this lying scum off the hook. What have the Repukes said all along. Character is an issue. Honor and integrity.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

132. I come from a family of vets and they echo your sentiments

My dad-Korean war vet and 12-year Air Force man-says there's no way that he could have slipped through the cracks. His record was fudged, covered up and it's an insult to those who served and died for their country in Vietnam.

[RandomKoolzip]

134. Isn't it funny that....

You'll never see a "fellow" conservative on a RW message board tell other conservatives NOT to talk about "Hitlery," or the govt. wanting to take away guns, or any of their "wacko theories?" Isn't that odd!?

Hmmmmm, seems like what we got there is a liberal who is SO concerned about our cause that he takes it upon himself to come to DU and tell everybody to shut up. Strange, but it seems we've gotten a bunch of those lil' guys lately. Everytime there's an issue or a story in the media that's damaging to repu credibilty, you can bank on some new face at DU telling us all here that "talking about this will only make us look bad." I've seen this quite a few times. Funny, though, isn't it, that this never happens on RW sites.

So, I guess my question is....who's paying you guys to do this? Sullivan? Horowitz? Limbaugh? ROVE? Either you're on somebody's payroll to perform "low level internet damage control" for your repug bosses, or you're really a free agent (provaocateur?) who is just SO worried about "US" winning in November that you have taken it upon yourself to appear like some sort of voice of authority on "how the average American" thinks. In that case, welll....Believe me, pal, the Devil does NOT need another advocate; in fact, he's got all three branches of governmnt and the fifth estate as well.


Either way, it would benefit all parties involved if you'd go away. And tell your friends to keep their mouths shut if they think they can tell us what to do.

[Oilwellian]

135. You speak with a forked tongue

In your original post, you say the following:

"The entire 'AWOL' thing is nonsense which hurts us by making us sound extreme. Basically no one cared that Clinton dodged the draft- Bush, at best, can be accused of getting behind on his service days a little bit."

Then in post 45 you say the following:

"It was the letter that really bothered me at the time. I can understand wanting to avoid that war- I felt the same. But it was... taunting. I went into the both in 1992 planning on voting for Clinton, but voted for Perot instead because of it."

Evidently, Clinton dodging the draft changed your vote to Perot, yet you tell us if we pursue the debate that Bush was a deserter, it will "hurt us" and "make us sound extreme." By your own words pal, you said it DID matter to you in 1992 and that's why you changed your vote. It certainly makes one wonder, being a Democrat as you claim to be and wanting to see a Democrat in the WH, why you're so quick to poo poo Junior's TANG record when it would OBVIOUSLY change some votes. Can you say, busted?

[The Night Owl]

136. Apparently, Rbrussell has deserted this thread...

I always enjoy seeing these Bush defenders skulk away when the facts are presented.

:kick:

[Moderator]

137. Locking

Disruptor thread

DU Moderator