---------> CLICK HERE IF YOU SUPPORTED THE IRAQ WAR RESOLUTION <----------

[Wonk]

Say hi to Ali Abbas. Maybe you've seen him before.




Now say hi to Ali Hussein. You probably haven't seen him before.




Amazingly, he survived.




Some new toys make it all better?



A Tale Of Two Alis 148 M vp3 video

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyemonday/feature_150304.html

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/




Now tell me again how you rationalize the 10,000 some Iraqi civilians killed and countless others wounded like these poor children were.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. One can be against the war resolution and still support a

candidate that begrudgingly gave it his vote.

While I mourn all loss of life, these appeals to emotion are beyond the pale.

Please prove the war would not have happened were the resolution shot down.

Please prove the resolution would not have passed but for ONE vote.

Given that you KNOW the war was planned PRIOR to 9/11 please tell me you really think that NO vote would have made a rat's ass bit of difference...then I will agree that we should tear down the one guy that stands a snowball's chance in hell of beating Bush...and I too will commit mutiny in the name of BEING RIGHT.

[sangha]

9. Appeals to emotion

pure and shameless propoganda.

[Q]

15. Yeah...reality sucks, doesn't it?

- What's 'shameless' is not being able to admit that many Democrats signed on to the SLAUGHTER in Iraq...and now won't face the consequences of their decision.

[sangha]

22. Lies suck

and people who lie about death and exploit death suck

[RichM]

11. Re: "Please prove the war would not have happened were the resolution

shot down", etc -

- You are attempting to rationalize the indefensible. It is true that perhaps nothing would have stopped the war. But we can say with confidence that having leading Democratic senators voting 'Aye,' having these same senators go along with the charade that the basic conflict was about getting Saddam to "disarm" (ie, that it had nothing whatever to do with the unmentionable word "OIL") -- we can safely say that this was a sure-fire way to make certain the war would not be stopped.

Try to imagine Kerry, Edwards, Hillary Clinton, and all the other Democratic Senators rising proudly to tell the truths that Dennis Kucinich did, that Robert Byrd did... Try to imagine all 50 of them doing that. THAT would have been a party one could be proud of.

To attempt to use the excuse - as you are doing - that it was hopeless anyway, so Kerry can't really be blamed for just going along with it; to forgive him for not even trying to get the truth out and do his honest best to stop this atrocity -- this is simply averting your eyes from something you'd rather not see.

[G_j]

20. I remember

when DUers got together and arranged to have flowers sent to Senator Byrd which were delivered to him on the Senate floor. What a proud moment that was!
People were calling and writing Congress, visiting their offices asking them to oppose the resolution.

What a different place this is today.
lots of excuses.

To add insult to injury a year after the invasion, the media still acts like the peace movement never existed.
Now here we are at DU getting a similar treatment, because a Senator who we begged and pleaded with to give peace a chance is the "electable" nominee.

How things change..

[sangha]

24. What a selective memory you two have

I guess you forgot about how shortly after announcing that he would have Congress vote on a resolution, 49 Repuke Senators, Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman announced that they would vote in favor of the resolution SIGHT UNSEEN, giving it the 51 votes it needed to pass. This was the version of IWR that would have authorized an invasion of the ENTIRE Mideast. Would you two have preferred that version?

IOW, there was no possibility of shutting it down. The idea is just abother example of how some people's politics are based on flights of fancy and emotional appeals.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. There were other people running against him and people chose

not to vote for them...how would you then reconcile the hand you are left with.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. It's what is so

whether we rationalize it or complain about it or shoot ourselves in the foot over it, it is what is so. The war would have happened regardless.

I forgive the vote..you don't...that's the only difference.

I'm not apologizing for a war that would have happened regardless.

And cool it with the sanctimonious bullshit about what I would and would not rather see....I am not happy we got into this war..I accept that a mistake was made and I'd like to get the crazy lying individual out of the WHitehouse that made it imminent that we go to war...
my apologies if that desire is not pure enough for you.

[Wonk]

16. Well, thanks for explaining how you rationalize it now.

I remember you being opposed to it in the past. It's interesting how opinions can change over time.

Note that I didn't mention Kerry in my post, and that this thread is in GD, not GD 2004, but that's ok.

My thread was aimed more at folks posting on DU who supported the IWR. There seem to be more of those lately than there used to be.

[Pobeka]

25. Kerry gave a good reason for voting for the resolution.

That reason was that he knew Bush would go to war regardless of congress. The reason to vote for the resolution was to try to force Bush to go through the U.N., i.e. give the inspection process a fair chance, and get international support *before* going to war. I think Kerry did as much as a senator could do in order to avert this horrible mess.

That makes sense to me.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. It did to me too but be preapared to be called a war apologist

by those that disagree.

[The Traveler]

2. I didn't support the war resolution

'cause I've seen it before, smelled it before, and it should absolutely be the last option we consider. Diplomacy was working. Sanctions were working. Containment was working. No-fly zones were working. And it was obvious these measures were working. We did not have to fight this war.

I wonder ... is Shrub's heart that cold and empty? Or is it filled with that much hate?

[Sulldogg]

4. Sanctions killed more than that

UN Sanctions killed a lot more than 10,000 people in the decade they were 'working'

[woodstockjimi]

10. and you...how would you have responded

if you "HAD THE POWER?"

[Sulldogg]

13. All I was saying

Was the sanctions robg said were 'working', were in fact killing thousands of people. As for the other things he talked about, he's all wet as well.

No Fly Zones - American lives were on the line everyday, and Iraqi's were dying.

Containment - I think it is fairly obvious we (being the entire international community, including the UN) had no idea what was going on in Iraq (or Iran, Libya or a lot of other places for that matter). He may have been contained, or he could have been maintaining large stockpiles of weapons. No one knew, so saying he was contained is revisionist history at best, lies at worst.

[The Traveler]

26. Quit probably ... sanctions sure did hurt 'em

Such are the dilemmas when you help to create a monster. There are no good solutions, sometimes, and one must choose from those which are least harmful. In my opinion, tho others are certainly at liberty to disagree with me, there was no honor in the war with Iraq. It was fought under false pretenses. It further amuses me that a vastly superior attacker (us) has spent so much time mentally masturbating over their great victory, having defeated a weak and ineffective opponent (them).

In the meantime we have spent $160 billion, killed and maimed an as yet undisclosed number of civilians, and achieved conditions likely to produce the next Lebannon.

Kerry and others voted in order to give the President LEVERAGE, and it was appropriate for them to do so. Their only mistake was presuming that Bush was acting from an honorable place. They trusted him to do the right thing. They were, in that, quite wrong.

[Sulldogg]

30. Quit probably?

What does that mean?

[Tennessee_tarheel]

31. no Saddam did -

How did a "saction" kill anyone? It takes people. Mean evil ones in this case.

Man, maybe I AM a conservative like some of my friends tell me I am, sheesh.

[woodstockjimi]

8. how would you have responded to September 11th?

Be honest with me and yourself.

[Wonk]

12. Stick to the topic, please, unless you have evidence that Iraq was

involved in that.

[woodstockjimi]

18. I have no more evidence than you, but

here you go...www.washingtonpost.com

[The Traveler]

21. Special ops

Precision attacks against specific targets. Mean nasty guys dressed in black armed to the teeth. Omar, Bin Laden, a few others. Offed in a spooky and spectacular fashion. Its been done before, successfully, against those who were better prepared to defend themselves against it.

[Gman]

3. Sure I supported the IWR

it required Bush to get permission from the UN. And the sooner war in Iraq came off the table, the sooner we would be able to get back to trying to elect Democrats in November 2002. Bush never got the required permission. He went to war anyway.

Quit playing games with the Democratic nominee and place the blame where it belongs, on Bush. That is, of course, assuming you truly want to place the blame where it belongs.

[robcon]

5. The IWR was morally right and politically right.

Kerry was right to vote for it.

[Cleita]

6. I never supported the war resolution but I had to open this.

I knew whatever you did, it would be very real. The troll people who are in charge of this burn and slash slaughter don't care. We have to make them care. I just don't know how, unless there is a way to make them feel really threatened. How will we do this? No, we don't need to be bloody. What we need to do is destroy their fortunes. This threatens them. Where do we start?

[WillyT]

7. I Know I Marched Against It Then... I March Against It Still !!!

With others...

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1228893

And... After saying that...

I weep...

...

[IronLionZion]

14. IWR does not equal war

I don't blame Kerry for supporting the resolution. I blame Bush for fucking it up. I was against the sanctions for a long time because they punish the people of Iraq not Saddam.

[usregimechange]

17. Reality check reality check

The war resolution isn't the same as the war. Here is the difference. Many believed that the preception of solid US force would be enough to produce change. Indeed, it was the right thing to do to vote for the resolution if someone rational was our President. Many simply did not fathom the depth of Bush's faith based foreign policy. They are guilty of being naive, not guilty of the results that are a pruduct of the Bush Administration. Lets get some perspective on who are true opposition is. W

[Tennessee_tarheel]

23. pulease -for those who think they were "naive" - or the "threat"

Kerry (and others) didn't understand the resolution? They were naive? C'mon! They voted for what was then a politically opportunistic postion. These aren't a bunch of country mice who just fell off the turnip truck. You think bush & co. "tricked" them? They are freakin' politicians who voted the way they did either becuase they belived in the action (like Joe) or because it was the politically expedient thing to do (kerry, edwards, etc.) at that time. Kerry's been running from his vote ever since Dean made it a liability. He has no "principles" and proves it each day. At least Dean & J.L. were true to their beliefs.

[Tennessee_tarheel]

19. cheap shot

1- your numbers are overblown AND
2- how many died from Saddam's brutal reign? ]
3- How many will now live who wouldn't otherwise?
4- Pitting the loss of some innocent lives against others is useless and an intellectually dishonest way to make your point.

[Moderator]

32. locking this

Please feel free to repost with a
warning above the pictures .

:hi: