Are "Deanites" a threat to the Democratic party ?

[SGrande]

Found this on the internet re-posted on a UFCW messageboard in California who were discussing this site:


Thanks,. It can get really bad over there. I have a few friends who have
been on Democratic Underground who have told me that they actuallt have
personal message groups and when tey se somone post an article, like trhe
recent one I saw here (and reposted there) "Will the real Howard Dena Please
Stand up?" they get together to personally attack the person who posted it.

Some of the youner women have personal messages me or my girlfriend stating
they were virtaully in tears over the personal attacks. Among the most
recent, they accused all of the people who posted what they consider "Dean
Bashing, which can be as simple as bringing up Deans record of cutting
programs to the poor, blind, disabled and elderly and questioning it. They
do not brook ANY questioning of Deans record as governor and get very
viscious in their attacks, I was accused of being a Rovian plant, and others
who do as I do, post the odd article from the Argus iImes or Burlington Free
press about Dean threateneing to veto legislative increases to the budget to
restore programs for the very elderly poor that he cut, have al been accused
of being supporters of Rove who hold secret meetings to attack Dean on DU.

These people are not joking, but rather serious. They use some of the
foulest and most abusive language towards women, and I as a gentleman will
not repeat it, even in an email.

Everyone else initially starts posting, what they feel are legitimate and
contradictions between the Doctors career as governor, and the statments he
has been making as governor, and initially, everyone is very stunned, by the
very vehement and nasty attacks. My girlfriend was expoosed to it for the
forst time today, in a post that had nothing to do with candidates, but a
thread on behaving more courteouly, and she was attacked for not being
activist enough, and was so upset and stunned that she could not beleive
it.

I first started looking into Deans record when I saw that so many of his
supporters on DU were so remarkably abusive, that I dedicded to look into
his past, as governor, rather than simply listen to his speeches as a
candidate, and began to rationally state my concerns and opinions. AS a
disabled person, some of my concerns were directed towards his many cuts to
services to the disabled, but the attacks were targetted, and I had dozends
of people atacking and insulting me in a period of minutes after posting.
THey get VERY, VERY abusive and Very personally insulting.

ANyway, anything you can do, and anytime you can get over there would be a
great help. The Dean supporters are getting a bit upset, as a great number
of very new supporters of Kerry have been joining the site and they sort of
roam from thread to thread attacking Kerry, Kucinich, anyone who is not
Dean. It gets a bit rough, and a lot of people have to take breaks from the
abuse, as they start to take it very personally when they are called
A***Holes, and Ann Coulters Evil Twin and such.

I have reposted a number of articles that you have posted here from various
news services and they have been of great assistance, so thanks

[Northwind]

1. There are two or three

People here who support Dean and go into attack mode if anyone criticizes him in any way, this is true. But frankly, there are two or three people who do that for any candidate in the field. Even Lieberman has defenders!

What this post says is a gross exaggeration anbd ignores the fact that the same could be said for some supporters of any of the candidates.

[SGrande]

2. I was just wondering, im very new here

[Rose Siding]

31. See the "alert" feature on the lower left side of each post?

Any of this: "They use some of the foulest and most abusive language towards women...", should be and most probably would have been "alerted" about and removed from the board.

[whirlygigspin]

81. "I feel your pain"

can't we just all get along?

[searchingforlight]

9. I agree. I have seen this happen on all sides.

I am curious though. Am I the only one that has seen people take offense if you say something good about your candidate even if it doesn't attack the other persons?

[Northwind]

43. No

I have seen that as well, on all sides.

[JohnKleeb]

60. Yeah you are right

Grande dont worry about it, I dont know your misgivings with Dean, and I got to admit I have some. Yeah even Lieberman has defenders.

[Dagaz]

3. Not at all

The Dean forces are no more a threat to the Democratic party then the Buchanonites are a threat to the Republicans. In the end practicality wins out.

[PurityOfEssence]

4. No

If nothing else, this is supposed to be the party of open debate.

He can win, too.

(He's just not my favorite at the moment.)

[Bombtrack]

16. he can win the primary

he can't come close to winning the general without a second recession and some tet offensive-like event in Iraq

[Ediacara]

91. um, no

Do you have any reasons for this?

[unfrigginreal]

5. Everytime you trash him, I get more determined to support him!

You support a guy who plays politics to the hilt and want to criticize a guy that tells it like it is. That's your choice but I'm not buying it.

[SGrande]

11. me?

Watch it, your getting personal!

[w4rma]

6. ABC's The Note: RNC's/Rove's strategy for interfering in the Dem primary

Circle of Blue
A Political Week More Fun Than an Archie Comic!
...
At some point, somebody should take all the e-mailed press releases from the crackerjack research team at the Republican National Committee attacking the Democratic presidential candidates, print them out, and publish them in a bound, leatherette hard copy edition.

Like a fine Julie Teer quote LINK, or a "Breck Girl" anonymous missile from a "Bush adviser," these releases are intended to make mischief in the Democratic nomination fight — destabilize things as much as they can, dragging the process out as long as possible, trying to produce as weak a Democratic nominee as they can in the end, and basically playing bad cop, so the president can stay above the fray until the last possible moment.

These releases, read in their totality, are brilliant, but they can also cause some cognitive dissonance, because they do hit on some contradictory themes (sometimes, for example, attacking a candidate for being too liberal, but, sometimes, attacking someone for being to conservative).

The main themes are that one or more of the Democratic candidates are:

1. missing too many votes
2. changing their positions
3. itching to raise your taxes
4. inconsistent
5. attacking each other
6. too negative about President Bush (Note the irony!)
7. wimpy, effeminate, and crass
8. obstructionist
9. unconcerned with homeland security
10. borderline communist (ok: we are — pretty much — kidding about that one)

The RNC attacking the Democratic candidates is dog-bites-man, except, pace Karl Rove, this is arguably the most organized operation of this type in the modern era (You should see their tape library!!!).
...
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/TheNote/TheNote_July14.html

Also, personal attacks are against the rules on DU, so if someone "personally attack(ed) the person who posted" an article, they'd be banned.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

[T Roosevelt]

7. Part of the problem is the level of Dean-bashing on DU

There are more Dean threads (both for and against) than for ANY of the other candidates. It's incredible, and really very tiring. It's also very understandable that a few here (and a few in any group regardless) are going to step up the rhetoric...but that goes both ways, and is often in response to flame baiting.

Overall the Dean defenders (of which I am one) are no worse than defenders of any other issue. The post mentioned is an excerpt of an ongoing battle...

[tedoll78]

8. You ask a fair question.

And as a Dean supporter, I'm not completely proud of his record in Vermont. On the whole, it's very promising, but there are a few ugly spots.

The overall package, his policy proposals for The Future.. this matters more to me. He's exciting, the media really seem to like him (I despise 'The Gore Treatment' of 2000), and he might actually be bringing a bunch of new people into the voting booth.

I like Kerry, genuinely. But image of the overall package is something that affects electability. To me - and others might find differently - he doesn't seem like he would fight as vociferously to defend himself and Democratic ideals.

Being honest, I get tired of the flamebait and the pissiness, and sometimes I jump in when it seems like someone has gone too far or kept nagging with thread after thread after thread about how bad Dean is. I'm really looking forward to this nomination process being over, no matter who the nominee turns-out to be.

To answer your question, no, we aren't a threat to the party. We might actually we expanding our party. A few bad apples support each contender.. it would be a mistake to transfer that aura over to the candidate him/herself.

[searchingforlight]

19. The problem I have with some of the objections stated about Dean

i.e. programs he cut, is that they are taken out of context. I don't like the cuts in those programs either but given the whole picture and the necessity of creating a better budget picture in Vermont - WHICH IS SOMETHNG ALL VERMONTERS WANTED - some programs have to be cut. It sucks but it happens.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fixated]

12. ...

The DLC is just nervous. In my opinion this election seems unwinnable, considering the sway of the public, so we might as well try a liberal.

[SGrande]

15. I was asking a simple question "dude"

Stop attacking the messanger

[cherryperry]

22. Get used to it,

you're proving the point of what you originally posted.

Try not being a self-hating Jew here - even more "fun"! :puke:

Don't let them drive you away from DU, however, there are lots of interesting places to post...honest! :toast:

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Northwind]

18. To be honest

I have seen threads in which a couple of Dean supporters go way over the top in response to what they think is bashing. I have not seen profanity or anything like threats.

I myself have become very frustrated at times with some of the Dean detractors. Not because I think they are bashing him (although some do fit that description) or becasue they do not agree with me, but because they just seem so myopic to me. I see a LOT of poepl on this board who seem to be one-issue voters, and that irritates the hell out of me no matter who they are trashing. I have been suspicious of that since I was a boy and watched all the years that my Catholic parents vote stricly on the anti-abortion candidate, not matter what his stance on anything else. That inability to compromise frankly scares me, because to me it spells serious defeat and the utter destruction of the liberal ideal.

Despite this, I have tried very hard to maintain and even keel and not go off on any of them. Sometiems it is hard, but I keep trying.

[Ediacara]

13. no, but Kerrycrats are

What is this bullshit you're posting?

[SGrande]

17. see, what I mean, i alerted the DU admin

and I PROMISE you he won't be banned or have his post removed

I am a simple Democrat who just wants Bush out and I was a Dean supporter...until I met this Messageboard and honestly I think i just might not vote in this election JUST BECAUSE of the manner in which Deanites treat me here.

[Northwind]

23. I am sorry

But I have a lot of trouble taking you seriously when you let the actions of some people you do not really know on a message board affect how you feel about a candidate.

Do you think Dean pays these people to act like this or something? There are always people, in any issue, who get hostile when they feel their posotion is being attacked. hell, go to a rock music message board sometime, people threaten each other's lives over a stupid comment on this or that band "sucking". Do not let those sort of people get to you. Ignore them and pay attention to the issues.

[SGrande]

26. I think I will .... start hitting the ignore button that is

thx

[cherryperry]

30. unfortunately, I've felt forced and

actually have hit the ignore button on the worst anti-Semites around here - so far, much more pleasant for me! G'head :thumbsup: :hi:

[sfecap]

41. There you go again...

Anti semites...

[SGrande]

48. wee, im adding this one to my ignore list

your right, this is fun :)

and easier!

[Jim Sagle]

24. Yeah.

Right.

[TSIAS]

28. You encounter a few people you feel disrespect you

On an internet message board, and now you decide that this election doesn't matter? The give and take between Dean and Kerry supporters is intense. However, I cannot fathom the discourse being so hurtful that you choose to allow another 4 years of Bush.

[SGrande]

33. Letme count the insults

Ive been called

"a pathetic little Kerry prick"

"bush-lite traitorous scumbag"

and a

"Rove lackey"

Their messages are deleted, but they are never banned and live on another day to insult more people.

C'mon, you are not warned when you just read this page. Children can easily read this message board and read some of the worst profanity on the internet aside from a Freeper site.

We are no better than they are if we act like this AND accept this kind of language.

THIS is why i am considering becoming un-active and not voting in 2004 presidential elections...ill vote for Congress but the level this message board is at makes me sick.

[Northwind]

37. ...

What does "the level this message board is at" have to do with Dean or any other candidate?

[SGrande]

42. I love Howard Dean

He is my #2 pick.

Dean's NRA rating and the insults and pure hatred of Kerry on this Forum are why Im in the Kerry camp...for now.

My argument is given what ive seen done to me and my friends here and this post Ive found on the union messageboard makes me wonder if its all worth it.

If the world we are "building" with all this grassroots support is meanspirited, devoid of original thought and reactionary, then why am i to support anyone in the primary and in the general?

As a Catholic: The END never justifies the MEANS.

And if the kind of debate going on leads to Dean, the means in which they got there, attacking their fellow democrats personally and pure hatred...its not worth it.

Id rather go back to my nice world, raise my 1 yr old and never vote again, other than local schoolboard and Assembly races and of course US Congress and Senate...but NEVER again for President if this is how people treat eachother

[Northwind]

51. I think I see what you are saying

But in all honesty, I think you are allowing a few bad apples to color your view of how a Dean supporter behaves.

I am a Dean supporter, have I behaved in that fashion? Perhaps you should judge Dean supporters by my example instead of theirs. :)

[SGrande]

55. I will try, and Ill "ignore button" the others

:)

thx , you are renewing my hope

[sfecap]

44. So why do you come here?

If the message board makes you sick?

YOU asked the question, and it got responses.

Noone attacked you.

Geez...

[SGrande]

49. ignored...

buh BYE

[Ediacara]

53. HAHAHA

You're going to ignore every Dean supporter sinly because they support Dean? You're not going to see very many posts...

[SGrande]

56. No, because they attack me and my views

rather than having a civil discussion with me.

Ill fight Republicans thank you very much, I won't fight my own kin; democrats.

[Ediacara]

72. if you want the discussion to be civil

You need to start a civil discussion. The thing you posted, whether or not you took it from some other site, is flamebait. If you post flame bait, expect some flames. They're not necisarily attacking YOU, they're attacking your style of "civil discussion."

Although I expect I'm already on your ignore list, so I am not sure why I am bothering.

[SGrande]

74. No you're not

You disagree with me, but you do it civillay and ILl take your advice to heart.

[Gringo]

61. Now it's getting hard to restrain MY hostility.

"Children can easily read this message board and read some of the worst profanity on the internet aside from a Freeper site."

Huh? children can easily visit any site. I doubt they'd visit here of all places. And if my kids were old enough to have an interest in politics, I'd have no problem with them looking at this site, and I'd explain what the words mean and their context. My kids have the sense not to use profanity in mixed company.

"We are no better than they are if we act like this AND accept this kind of language."

We're better than they are BECAUSE we accept this language, IMO. Personally, I think they're often a bit premature in deleting and banning, but that's not my call. I'm glad that there is some freedom of expression here, and a vigorous exchange of opinions. This thread, however has turned into a pointless flame war, and this will be my last contribution. Listen, NachoS BellGrande, you're the one coming in here inciting a riot smearing Dean supporters, and DUers in general with a broad, and dishonest brush.

"THIS is why i am considering becoming un-active and not voting in 2004 presidential elections...ill vote for Congress but the level this message board is at makes me sick."

The candidates do not determine the discourse here. We do, and a lot of us like it just fine, thank you. You are free to not vote. If your support for Kerry is that lackluster that a few posters at DU could cause you to not vote altogether, you must have never really supported him at all IMO. Thanks for the nasty flame war. I'm done with it.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

63. wasn't it you...

...who said all Deanies need to shave their armpits? I might be wrong...

[jbou]

68. come on

DU is a sad little place at times, but that's what comes with internet discussion boards, people can say whatever they want. I come here every once in a while to check in on the lefty viewpoint, and add my 2 cents.

As for not voting, that would just be silly, and I think you know that. Politics is an ugly game, it's never been pretty, and it never will be pretty, but it's all we've got so you make the best of it.

Message me if you're interested in a discussion site that is smarter, and a bit more pleasent then DU, sorry folks, but i'm not sharing with just anyone.

[AmyStrange]

130. Why do you hang around here than?

I don't get it?






Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[Rose Siding]

32. Disenfranchise yourself.

That'll show 'em :eyes:

[SGrande]

35. accept hated on DU

That'll drive more away than youll gain through deanite tactics

[Ediacara]

39. Look buster

Your post was an attack and flamebait, and my reply was obviously sarcasm. Do you have something constructive to post about Kerry? Or perhaps a criticism of Dean that isn't exagerated (destroying the party)?

If you post flamebait bullshit like this, EXPECT people to reply with "knock it the fuck off!"

[SGrande]

50. I POSTED a damn message on found

on my UCFW messageboard from someone who posts here and got me to join DU!

DON'T ATTACK THE MESSANGER!

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!

[Ediacara]

58. I'm not attacking you

I made a joke, you claimed I attacked you, then I responded with WHY I made the joke. If you can't understand sarcasm, then I suggest you take a second before posting.

I really dislike the mindless exagerating and tearing down of candidates without any support of alternatives. If there's something the dems need more than ANYTHING else come spring of next year it's UNITY.

[SGrande]

62. Its a little hard to undersand sarcasim over the internet ...

So my apologies

[Ediacara]

79. understood

I will try harder in the future to label sarcasm, if that'll help others.

[JustJoe]

59. I'm shifting my support to Kerry

after reading your measured and persuasive posts.

[SGrande]

65. ignored

[JustJoe]

67. Well!

Just for that I'm going back to Dean.

[TLM]

150. LOL!!!

:beer:

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gringo]

40. That makes NO sense at all!

You supported Dean, but blew him off because his supporters hurt your feelings? So you pick your candidate by his supporters? That is "stinkin thinkin'" as Al Franken would say.

A lot of Reagan voters were as nice as can be (if a bit lazy mentally), does that mean we all should have voted for the doddering fascist fool just because many of his rank-and-file boosters was nice?

[SGrande]

57. "show me who your supporters are and ill show what type of person you are"

[Forkboy]

64. You're not going to vote because of some other people?

The term WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH comes to mind.

[SGrande]

66. ignored...for hateful speech

[Forkboy]

73. LMAO

:crazy:

[Ediacara]

83. HOW is that hateful?

[SGrande]

90. I don't rememeber, he's ignored =)

[Ediacara]

94. and yet

you say you want a civil discussion?

[SGrande]

95. Im taking your advice ...

Or at least I think it was you :)

If someone is getting rude and obnoxious, like the two I put on ignore, I ignore them and are done with them.

If they cannot be civil, to hell with them

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SGrande]

114. No, see that was civil

That wasn't personal.

I don't agree with you, but that was civil :)

And No, i said I wasnt going to vote because if this is the Democratic Party that was going to be on that ballot: mean, ugly and slanderous, then I want no part of it.

And to be honest, those 2 are only in post so far, so they are peons in a big pool, of nice, caring, civil people: aka "REAL" Democrats.

The End NEVER justifies the Means.

[Gringo]

124. Yeah, thanks a lot grande

for setting a "civil tone". We'll all be curtseying soon.

[SGrande]

127. hehe

:loveya:

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SGrande]

93. not one day...4 or 5 days

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TSIAS]

34. How is what he suggested different

than claiming that Dean supporters are a threat to the Democratic Party. I think the Kerry supporters will want the Dean supporters when Election 2004 comes around, and vice versa.

[Ediacara]

45. Look

it was a joke, and OBVIOUSLY sarcastic. I am a little turned off by people who a) don't support their candidate and b) post all sorts of doom and gloom exagerated nonsense about other candidates (destroying the party). If someone posts flame bait, expect others to be anoyed.

[Pepperbelly]

14. I will pass on this thread and all threads I see bashing candidates...

Additional posts of this nature will cause me to put the originator on ignore.

:D

[SGrande]

20. attacking WHO?

I was ASKING A QUESTION for gods sake off a message found on a message board and Im attacking someone!?

:wtf:

[Northwind]

27. Um...

I did not see anyone say you were attacking anyone...

Unles you are referring to the post about getting more determined to supprt him, which I think may have been incorrent use of the word "you", as in when "one" should be used instead. In other words, I do not think the poister was talking about you persoanlly.

[XanaDUer]

29. Get used to it....

n/t.

[Gringo]

21. I'm not so sure that it's a plant, but it is total BS

I haven't seen any evidence that Dean supporters are especially hositle at all. And the spelling in that post is atrocious to the point of being very distracting. Please be considerate enough to clean it up a bit before you post it.

It seems that there is very little to attack Dean on, so these people just grasp at anything "He left Vermont a mess" or, "He's constantly attacking the other candidates/Kerry" , "He's stiff", "He loves the Patriot Act." He must be a pretty good candidate if this is the best they can come up with!

As to Deanites being a threat: to the contrary. The democratic party was starting to look like a sinking ship last fall and they have injected new life into it. Thank god for Dean. If he wasn't in the race, I can guarantee you that the media wouldn't be paying attention to it at all.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

77. This is the best paragraph I've read in a long time

"As to Deanites being a threat: to the contrary. The democratic party was starting to look like a sinking ship last fall and they have injected new life into it. Thank god for Dean. If he wasn't in the race, I can guarantee you that the media wouldn't be paying attention to it at all."

That, in a nutshell, is why I love Dean. They all have something good to say. Dean lights a fire.

[AmyStrange]

137. hmmmmmmmm...

"And the spelling in that post is atrocious to the point of being very distracting."


interesting thought. I know someone else who is an atrocious speller... almost to distraction. I wonder... ?





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[Gman]

36. Dean supporters are really amusing

Dean supporters see theirselves as the "real" Democratic Party (whatever the hell that is). I get a kick out of watching them because I've seen it all before. They're just the latest in a very long line over some 35 years now. But don't tell them that because the world just began a couple of years ago. And, that too is funny because every other incarnation of "Dean"-type supporters over the years thought the world began when they got interested.

Dean has little if any chance of winning in November 04, but don't tell them that. Dean supporters will fade away just like all the others. In the meantime, I'm amused by them.

[JustJoe]

52. Who are you supporting,

Gman? Thanx.

[Gman]

111. I'm supporting Graham

unless Gore gets back into it, then I'm supporting Gore.

[caledesi]

70. Oh really?

Well I am an Independent and don't really give a shit about the REAL Democratic Party. All I care about is Howard Dean getting the nomination. You will eat those words "Dean has little if any chance of winning in November 04, but don't tell them that." Trust me.

[Gman]

115. Gee, what can I say? Dean has no chance of winning in November 04

He just doesn't. Sorry if you can't handle that but if you're going to get involved in politics, you need to understand some realities. Dean being a loser is one.

[indigo32]

108. Excuse me

"Dean supporters see theirselves as the "real" Democratic Party "
What are you trying to say here? That we think we are the only supporters of the Dem party? Well I can only speak for myself, but for myself that is absulutely NOT TRUE. I DO DEFINITELY consider myself a democrat however... and it's the DLC that has been saying how NOT DEMOCRAT activists and Dean supporters are... not me saying the opposite. Thx.
I get SOOOOO tired of these broad brushes being painted for groups. Dean supporters, like many other candidates don't fall into one mindset at all. There is another post already in response to your post that proves that. An independant.
Lets just quit with the stereotyping can we please?

[Nicholas_J]

47. Dean supporters

In the last few days alone, one thread a Dean supporter attacked someone who dared questioned Dean's record of cutting programs to the poor as being an Ann Coulter relative!

I myself have had similar descriptions thrown at me on a regular basis, and I have been attacked personally (swear words) applied to me. They have only been Dean supporters do this. I have had personal differences with DUers about other candidates, and none of them have ever sank to the level of resorting to personal invective. This ,as far as I can tell, is the sole reserve of a good number of Dean supporters.

I am going to ask this question:what is it about Dean that draws some of the nastiest people to his campaign? There is an old Spanish saying: tell me who you're with, and I'll tell you who you are.

If these types of people are with Dean, then it has a lot to say about Dean himself. Dean attacked other candidates, many of whom supported Dean after his signing of the civil unions act led to a large-scale Republican attack on Dean himself. This behavior towards those who have defended him, is amazing.

[SGrande]

54. exactly, If the measure of Dean is his supporters

I say the hell with him and the Democratic Party.

A Democratic activist came to my house and got me to get active again and got me to join my local union.

Her argument was about my 2 week yr old (at that time) and the kind of world I wanted her growing up in.

And if the world she grows up in is measured by the way Deanites have treated me and my friends here, then to hell with them and howard dean

[sfecap]

69. Have you considered the fact that...

No one is attacking you!!!???

[Nicholas_J]

87. Deans campaign methods

And his supporters behavior remind me of the kinds of things that happened during the first half of the twentieth century. But since they cannot isolate one person who disagrees with Dean in a dark alley and beat them bloody, the abuse at beat on them in Internet threads.

The DLC is not afraid of Dean, but that Deans unethical campaigning and his cult-like method of getting support by attacking his own party for not being able to do what Dean himself could not do as governor of Vermont. Dean runs an attack campaign, makes baseless claims for his performance as governor. He is neither a centrist, nor was he sucessful at ANYTHING in Vermont. He was at best a mediocre governor who won by gaining the same kind of supporters who supported George Bush as Governor. It says a great deal about Dean that the same people who finacially backed Bush's presidential campaign in Vermont in 2000, backed Howard Dean as governor that same year. The same kind of people who wanted Dean to be governor in Vermont, wanted Bush to be president in Washington the same year.

What the DLC is afraid of is that Dean's political chicanery will fool many people into supporting him, and the DLC knows, as well as the Republicans, that Dean is unlikely to win.

Every poll that compares Democratic candidates and their ability to beat Bush places Dean as one of the top candidates with the least ability to beat Bush in '04. This is why Karl Rove said 'this is the guy we want' at the infamous July 4th meeting.

In NH, in the latest Boston Globe polls in New Hampshire, Dean is running three points ahead of Kerry, placing them at a statistical deadheat. The same people being asked , 'who has the best chance of beating Bush', give Kerry 44% and Dean 17%. The DLC does not want Bush to have any chance of winning (of course!), and see Dean as giving Dean the *best* chance of giving Bush another four years' in the WH. The DLC heeds the old adage, 'history repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce.'

The DLC does not want to see Bush swept into power as Nixon was in '72, with a massive landslide in the Republicans' favor. A Dean nomination assures this happening.

[SGrande]

97. wow, beautful post!

simply amazing!

[Ediacara]

104. Nicholas_J has a knack of

exagerating and fabricating concerning Dean, but I am sure he didn't mention that...

[Nazgul35]

117. Considering who you are in agreement with here...

you should spend a little more time examining other candidate's supporters. Your friend has supplied some of the more flame enabling threads out there and is a known bomb thrower when it comes to Governor Dean...

He is responsible for many posts that selectively edit what was said ny the governor and after his editing has been exposed, he waits a few days and brings these threads back again....I would suggest that you wander over to the political thread and see how many threads have his name attached and what the tenor and tone of the discussion is....

ALL SIDES HAVE IDIOTS INVOLVED!!! I myself have taken another Dean supporter to task for making disparraging remarks towards another democratic candidate based on their looks....stupid stuff....

Much of what is going on is frustration by many Dean supporters to see the same old nonsense purpetrated by the "I hate Dean cause I want my name to stay up on threads for many day" posters...and since you said you were new, you have stumbled upon an old argument....

My advice is that you stop starting threads that cause such reactions, purhaps post what's so special about your candidate...and take the high road...if you are so willing to determine who your choice of candidate is based upon what is said in a thread (which should be pointed out...has no method of eleminating repukes who want to stir up trouble by pretending to be dems...), perhaps you should not open these threads or post threads that are likely to expose you to this type of behavior...

I would suggest that you instead go to a Dean/Kerry meetup and see what the people there are all about and then make up your mind...i'm sure you'll see that not many are even talking about the other dem candidates....sorry guys...but it's true....rather everyone there is simply focused on getting rid of the little princeling....

[SGrande]

122. Ill take your advice

and thx for being so nice about it

[TLM]

152. Was that your message quoted in the first post Nic?

Sounds like the same brand of rant.

"In the last few days alone, one thread a Dean supporter attacked someone who dared questioned Dean's record of cutting programs to the poor as being an Ann Coulter relative!"


OH MY GOD?!?!?!?! AND ON A MESSAGE BOARD YOU SAY?!?!?

WELL CLEARLY DEAN IS HILTER INCARNATE!!!

[w4rma]

160. That is excactly what I was thinking when I scanned the post, TLM (n/t)

[dsc]

71. Here is Mr. Manners himself from another thread

Hrm ...
Is this a blue moon?
Deanites arn't following people from thread to thread, slandering every word and post a person makes? Making racial and mean spirited slurs?
HRM
this is a great day, the Deanites must be shaving their armpit hair for once!
woooooooooooooo


Gee not an insulting post. Not sexist. No not at all. This post can be found in the Politics forum on the second page. Link will be supplied shortly. Truth is a very good defense against slander. The truth is that Mr. Grande is a hypocrite.

Oh and here is that link:

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=11224&mesg_id=11274&page=

If this only goes to the thread you want post 9. If it goes to the post happy reading.

[Forkboy]

75. ooops...you're bound for the ignore list!

Don't you know he only wants sycophants to post with?

[sfecap]

76. Whoops...Mr. Manners is busted?

:crazy:

[SGrande]

78. hehe, two ignored replied to your post

BIG Surprise!

[Ediacara]

86. I'm shocked

that he's not ignored yet

[Egnever]

126. Well that was an easy guess from

The begining of this thread. This thread was nothing but flamebait from the start anyone could see it. That he cries wolf while posting tripe like that all on his own doesnt suprise me for a second.

Please add me to ignore now :puke:

[SGrande]

151. ignored

[Dover]

85. Depends on how you define "Democratic Party".

If you are referring to the DLC/DNC...then YES, Dean poses a threat.

But if you consider the Democratic Party progressive and grassroots, holding to core Dem values and goals rather than being waterboys for the corporations then NO....Dean, Kucinich, and all those who stand outside that inner circle are the lifeblood and hope of the people in this country and the Party.

[SGrande]

89. No i mean people with manners and are civil to eachother

People that can have a discussion without resorting to attacks and slander in EVERY post.

That is the kind of Democratic party Im talking about , and there are a few Deanites out there making a bad name for the Good Governor and his supporters and we, as a community should do our best to remove them from this board.

[Gringo]

98. But I thought...

"That is the kind of Democratic party Im talking about , and there are a few Deanites out there making a bad name for the Good Governor and his supporters and we, as a community should do our best to remove them from this board."

I thought you said we could judge the candidate by his supporters!

Anyway, If I were to judge Mr. Kerry by you, I'd think he was... well, I don't want to get my ass banned.

I'm a Dean supporter, and have NEVER had a problem with Kerry orr his supporters. A lot of Kerry supporters have told me that they have no problem with Dean.

It seems to me that the only one with a problem is you, and you've stirred it up all by yourself.

[SGrande]

107. See now that was a nice litte post

That didnt go over the edge!

As i stated, in this thread, Ive met some very nice Dean supporters who have been very nice to me and they changed my opinion of his supporters.

I now view the people i ignored as fringe, but until i posted this thread, I had not met anyone nice in the Dean camp.

And if you actually read this thread, you'd see I was a Dean supporter and changed because of this board plus his NRA stance that I learned from this site.

And the problem is not me, Im no one its the lack of civility amongst the fringe Dean supporters, 2 of them, i ignored

[dsc]

100. Would that be before or after

you are removed for the slanderous attack post I quoted above? Or don't little things like manners apply to you?

[SGrande]

110. slanderous attack?

have you ever been to a Dean rally?

I protested in those war protests and I was once a temp teacher and know MANY, MANY hippies. I still infact take my little girl to the drum circles on friday nights. Some of the best liberals don't shave their armpits silly! :)

It was a statement describing Dean supporters.

You took it to me slanderous, I took it to be humor, but I attacked no one personally.

[dsc]

112. No instead you smeared a whole group of people

that is vastly better. And it should be noted one of the things you complained about in your original post.

[SGrande]

116. smeared how?

Go back to the post

Did you not notice the humor and irony?
I had it pointed out to me, and rightly, that I should watch for Irony and Humor when thinking someone was attacking me and I think you should take that advice too or are you just on a fishing expedition to defend a few lunatic fringe dean supporters?

[dsc]

121. Unlike you I actually provided a citation

you posted your rant about Dean supporters with not one supporting quote. You made no mention of it being humor when I responded to it. You made no mention of it being humor when I quoted it here. Now, when you realize it makes you look like an utter hypocrite when you call for banning uncivil posters, you finally decide it is humor. Funny but I find that a little hard to swallow.

My posts here are defending Dean supporters as a whole since you made no effort in your post to differentiate. You did finally around 50 posts or so it but that is a little late IMO. Especially given that you HAVE STILL SITED not one post, person, or PM to back you up.

[SGrande]

125. Do you even read my posts?

I took that post off a UCFW Board by the guy who got me to join this forum.
I did not write that post and sorry Im not about to go back 6 or 7 pages in the Campaigns and elections to find threads I posted in and got attacked in... I dont have time for such silliness, silly :)

I know I got attacked and how I was treated. Im not asking for smpathy here, im trying to get fellow Dean supporters like yourself to start reining in your loony tunes from driving people from Howard Dean; like they did with me.

[dsc]

129. Gee its the Bush defense

I only said it but I didn't write or research it. I am not responsible for what is in it. Blame Condi, blame the CIA director, but don't blame me. With you it's blame the other forum, blame the people who posted, but don't blame me for posting it here without even bothering to find out if it is true or not. Sheesh.

[SGrande]

132. You do realize this is the "general discussion" thread?

[dsc]

146. You are vouching for these people

You are vouching for their claim to have posted here and all the rest. If post stuff like this then you should do some research to be sure it is true. I would imagine if I posted a Newsmax article about Kerry you would be the first to complain. This isn't the gossip club it is supposed to be a forum for political discussion.

[SGrande]

153. I asked a question, remember , not a charge

Are Deanites a threat to the Democratic Party?

I conclude, no.

I think there are a radical few Deanites making a bad name for the Gov and his supporters. I feel bad for my previous remarks and thoughts, but they are not without gounding in my experiences with dean supporters.

My opinion was changed by some very kind and respectful and decent supporters of Howard Dean.

so..

www.deanforamerica.com
www.johnkerry.com

[Gringo]

120. It's slanderous if you say it to

those who will are most freaked out by those people - Repukes. Describing Deanies that way is not slander. It's just unfunny, and completely inaccurate. In all the meetups I've been to, I've seen mostly a white yuppie crowd. No hippies at all.

[Dover]

106. I think Reed and others in DLC set that tone in their attacks .....

of course there IS a struggle within the Dem party for leadership and direction. And I have rarely known power struggles like that to be "nice". However, I also know that attacking one another won't change any minds. I think folks here at DU have different perspectives about just what this "election" is about, and what kinds of changes need to take place. Many have lost patience and have become disillusioned with the Dem leadership and are, imo, legitimately suspicious of just who pulls the strings of the DLC/DNC. The problems with the current corruption in government extend beyond what might be called "business as usual" and the stakes are very high for this country.

I think it will get less and less "nice", if our traditional avenues for contesting, having our voices heard and votes counted, are cut off or strangled by a corporate culture within our government that is hardly a model for democracy.

[SGrande]

113. Well, if they are mad at the DNC

They should join their State Parties and State Committees because those chose the DNC membership.

The DNC consists of the Chair man, NOW, Planned Parenthood, LCV, Young Democrats, College Democrats, the chairperson of each state party and an elected DNC member from each state.

The DNC has changed directions several times in the past 30 years and can again, but it takes LESS slanderous, all out meanness and ugliness against your fellow Democrats and more of working the Democratic party system to our favor, that means become an elected Precinct Committeeperson and voting for the DNC Representative.

[poskonig]

88. SGrande: Kerrycrats are a threat to the Democratic Party.

Psyche! I don't believe that; Kerry is my #2 choice at the moment.

But see how offensive it sounds? Do you understand why Kerry supporters would be angry at the statement?

[SGrande]

101. yes, and I was, which is why i ignored that person

And you show humor in your posts and would move me that much closer to supporting Dean again, thought I dont think I can do much with 2 1\2 jobs, and little money... but i just hate when people have nothing positive to say about a candidate and instead spend their time bashing the oppositions supporters...like me.

Respond civillay, with humor , whatever but getting personal will drive me from a candidate faster than being wrong on an issue or two .

Thank you for your civility.

[unfrigginreal]

118. HAHAHAHAHA!!! YOU DON't WANT TO BE ATTACKED?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a joke, you've been all over this forum attacking Dean, and poor little you doesn't want to get attacked. Well you're pretty damned lucky because Dean folks won't attack YOU but we will attack the Political Hack, John Kerry, that you're supporting. Get a grip Shirley!

[SGrande]

123. all over this forum?

funny, Ive never posted in general discussion to the best of my knowledge.

Ive posted in the campagigns and late breaking news

[indigo32]

96. Question back to you

is there any way that we could refrain from painting all supporters of ANY candidate as all being "this way" or "that way"?

I am sorry if this person had a negative experience. I'm sorry if your experience has been negative. You haven't been here particularly long...but I can't imagine how you expect to get much that is constructive out of posts like this, and I've seen more than your share for having registered less than a week ago. I am a Dean supporter... and I have never used language like that, I take offense at you labeling all of us in one group. I also think you need to take a look around and ask yourself if there aren't a few trouble makers on all sides and maybe realize thats how it's gonna be on the internet. As one poster stated look at any message board about almost any subject, thats the truth.

[SGrande]

103. You're right, I was wrong in that

But its just that literally every Dean support I met until this post was really insulting and acting quite ugly, perhaps it was cause I was posting mostly in late breaking news and Campaigns and Elections; perhaps its the posters there, but seriously I took off 2 days from posting because it got so vicious

[acerbic]

99. Fabricating claims about what other people are saying but not showing

any actual quotes, no sources, no proof whatsoever, but only excuses for not showing any:

These people are not joking, but rather serious. They use some of the foulest and most abusive language towards women, and I as a gentleman will not repeat it, even in an email.

More points for Dean in the "whose supporters lie and slander less" category...

[SGrande]

105. I didn't write that post and have no idea who attacked them

I just found that post, by a fellow UCFW union member who got me to come here in the first place; because while the little girl is asleep I have some time on the internet late night and early morning.

[Ediacara]

109. you're not getting the point though

You should have known the primary post was flame bait, and poorly written and researched flame bait.

[SGrande]

119. How can I know?

Ive posted in the Campaigns and Elections part of the DU and in Latest Breaking news and its always on new stuff like polls or something come up about a candidate. I got forwarded a post about Dean and something he said after 9-11 and I got flammed then for just asking a question about Howard Dean. I was then followed from post to post and attacked left and right just because I had posted that topic. I quit for 2 days and decided I wasn't going to be pushed around by most likly some snot nossed 16 yr olds (who knows after all) and then I get slandered again in this thread.

BUT, i finally met some good Dean supporters, 3 of them have e-mailed me, expressing me to come back to Dean and not to leave the DU.

I decided that the 2 I banned are the looney tune fringe and I wont judge ALL dean supporters based on those that flame everyone in campaigns and elections part of the DU

If asking a question based off a post on a message board is "flamebait" well then now I know, but I did not know that before. I thought I could ask a question, but I guess people lose all respect and decency when they can hide behind their computer screens?

[Egnever]

128. Complete waste of bandwidth

And you know it!

[SGrande]

131. please stop bringing this post back to life

I think we finished our discussion here, you are only going to bring back the fringe Dean supporters who bring a good man, like Howard Dean, a bad name.

[AmyStrange]

133. Putting people on ignore...

which you have the right to do,

But, don't forget that you don't "see" the threads those people start.
Alot of the people you put on ignore, post a lot of other interesting articles that have nothing to do with Dean. I maybe wrong, but even their Latest Breaking News post are invisible to you, so you might miss a lot of late breaking news discussions.

You shouldn't be so quick to put people on ignore willy nilly like you are doing. You might come in here someday and only see one thread an hour started, and no Latest Breaking News at all...

Or something like that,





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[SGrande]

134. The people I put on ignore are hateful , mean people

who to be honest I would suspect anything they post as tainted in someway towards whatever agenda they are pushing.

Worse came to worse, I can read the replies and guess what they are posting or ask someone to repost.

[Ediacara]

138. this is completely insane!

[AmyStrange]

141. You can't even see the thread...

so how can you see the replies? Maybe I'm misquoting the ignore policy? Maybe you can see other post? I don't know. This whole ignore policy just doesn't make any sense to me anyway, and I'm too lazy to check the rules.

That's me, a lazy Deanie... oooooo cool news item on the local news, would you buy a house if you knew it was haunted,






Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[SGrande]

142. I cannot see their post, just "ignored" but i can see all replies

[AmyStrange]

145. Even if they start a thread?

you see the title of the thread but nothing else... that would suck for LBN, because the subject is the title of the news item, but you wouldn't be able to read the news item or see the link and since you can't double post a LBN item... that would suck,





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[SGrande]

149. Well, as i said most of them, a total of 4 are really annoyances

One woman, with a earth image or "Avatar" picture was probably going to far, and ill probably unban her tomorrow...but the others are outrageous, so I doubt theyll be posting anything worthwhile for civilized people to discuss in an open forum.

[AmyStrange]

156. One of them you put on ignore...

was merely questioning the veracity of the person whom you were quoting and wasn't refering to you at all. That person (if I remember correctly) said that poster (and not you) was a repug plant, but you thought they meant you and they explained it quite clearly after you put them on ignore.

You should atleast reinstate that person long enough to read their messages again.

I think you jumped the gun there and should please reconsider.

And since all the others have their reasons also, I would be honored to represent them to explain their case. Someone has to represent them, because now you can't hear them any more. Everyone deserves atleast a second chance in my opinion. You have that power... to be nice.





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[acerbic]

135. I wouldn't be worried...

SGrande seems to be one of that select elite who never fail to announce and comment on those he/she is "ignoring". See e.g. post #78. :eyes:

[SGrande]

136. I just put them on ignore silly

:loveya:

[AmyStrange]

139. Listen SGrande...

I belong to a half a dozen anti-Dean yahoogroups (just because I can take it and I like checking out the opposition) and trust me my friend, the post you made to start this thread is nothing. Some of the anti-Dean people are beyond description and you should read the DU mailbag sometimes and you would not believe the virus e-mail I get because of my DU slang Dictionary.

It's brutal out there and that's real life,





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[SGrande]

140. wow, there are actually anti-dean groups?

:wtf:


Thats just as bad.

[AmyStrange]

143. But it's only fair if you think about it...

if you can have pro-Dean, it only seems fair to have an anti-Dean. Makes sense to me anyway. One of them was started by someone who was banned here...





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[SGrande]

144. wow

thats sick

really, really sick

I mean where do these people find the time?

[AmyStrange]

147. Find the time?

if I could figure out a way to stay away from this place more, I could probably get a lot more other stuff done.

I guess people find the time, because it'a addicting... I have no good answer really,






Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[SGrande]

148. hehe, true reply

I somehow find time with working from 5 am till 8pm and raising a 2yr old!

Thank god for relatives!

[AmyStrange]

157. Terrible twos...

my heart goes out to you. I don't have kids myself, but I helped my sister take care of my nephew in exchange for rent.

I hate relatives, but I love them too. I hope this makes sense,





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[CWebster]

154. Oh look, another Dean -bashing thread, and what a surprise-

It is posted by one of the usual handful whose sole objective seems to be posting Dean-bashing threads.

[whirlygigspin]

155. a propos

Robert Matsui: "The DLC and even Lieberman would probably be best off by running their own positive campaigns rather than whining about other candidates or whining about unions or whatever," he said.

"People in our party who critique us probably do more damage to us than the Republicans do."

[SGrande]

158. Ignored: for following me from thread to thread and alerted DU

[CWebster]

159. Don't flatter yourself

One need not "follow" you for it too be obvious who the usual offenders are.

[killbotfactory]

161. Dean supporters read Dean threads: SHOCKING!

A sign of psychosis!? PERHAPS!

[AmyStrange]

162. Wait a minute...

that is clearly not fair. I've seen you in a lot of Dean threads. It seems to me the same charge could be laid at your feet. There are basicly ten people whom are always posting positive Dean threads and you ARE ALWAYS posting in them in the negative.

The question is, does the person who follows you around post in all your threads or just the Dean bashing threads?

Suggestion to you SGrande. Before you put someone on ignore, why don't you do a search for their name as author and see where else they post and what else they post. Why don't you find out first where you can agree and work from there? I'm sure there are a lot of folks you put on ignore who have two year olds...





Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762