Not asking for a flame war but does anyone find "chosen people" offensive?

[absyntheNsugar]

First off I'll start by saying that I am part Jewish, and love the Jewish tradions and culture.

However, my Jewish relatives often cite that they are the "Chosen People" because it says so in the Bible. To me this seems no different than saying you're the Master Race. It's implying that my people are better than your people. I find it offensive and racist.

I also know I'm not the only person of Jewish ancestry who feels this way. Discuss?

[Endangered Specie]

1. I have never liked the idea of saying one is inherently better...

than others because of race or religion, its just like the Germans said the same thing, its too much like "manifest destiny"

[bearfartinthewoods]

71. i try really hard not to let other people's religious beliefs offend me

seems sort of silly imho. if i did, i think i'd be really pissed off by many religions views on women before the 'chosen' thing which seems to be a pretty universally held tenet in most of the majors.

[stopthegop]

2. chosen (to work with) doesn't necessarily mean better

just chosen...any religion that is exclusive in some way (most of them) could be accused of this...

[TN al]

3. I remember a theology professor

telling me that God chooses a people for the sake of those not chosen. So no I don't equate it with master race. It is like God chose for these people to have all of the bad things happen to.

[stopthegop]

4. yeah....good point...

the Jews have had some hard times in the last 4000 years

[absyntheNsugar]

6. Agreed...and that in mind

I'm not sure if being chosen is a good thing.

But often when its spoken about, it is said in a reverent tone as if to say "...all other races were bad but us, for we are chosen by God." I've never liked that as I've never liked the exclusiveness of any religion.

[sangh0]

9. Many dont understand what they were chosen for

It was to carry a burden. God wasn't running a lottery

[The Stranger]

5. Yes.

For everyone involved.

[Skidmore]

7. It was a useful myth to preserve when exodusing into

the Promised Land to confiscate the lands there the first time, and it serves as a useful myth to repeat the same sort of land grab now. Christians are glad to accommodate the myth because they are certain that THEY are indeed the chosen ones. As soon as the Jews have their land, then the Christians will inherit the earth, making possible the biggest land grab of all.

One of these days, hopefully before it's too late, mankind just might figure out that there's no such thing as better or chosen, only different. Lord, hasten the day.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Ah more flame words like "myth"

How unexpected in an anti-Jewish thread.

[absyntheNsugar]

14. I don't think this is an anti-Jewish thread

anymore than saying "I don't like how Germans refer to themselves as a 'Master Race'" is anti-German. I just don't like any group, be they Catholic, White, Jewish or anyone referring to themselves as better solely on race. That is the clearest-cut form of racism.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Sure

A thread about the Jewish people knocking them for being called the "Chosen People" isn't anti-Semitic. Just like a thread about African-Americans that said we aren't truly African anymore wouldn't be anti-black.

It's flamebait pure and simple.

[absyntheNsugar]

18. Excuse me? That's faulty logic

1st error: Jewish people didn't get called the chosen people, we called ouselves the chosen people. According to the Old Testament, God annoints the Jews as the chosen people. This is common in most cultures creation myths, but usually dies away when a culture opens itself up to the rest of the world. The ancient Greeks had their creation myths which Zeus annointed them as the "chosen", and the Romans had theirs with Romulus and Remus. Damn, even the Aztecs have theirs. These have all died away when the respective cultures cross-matriculated.

2nd error: comparing this to African Americans is also faulty. African-American does not imply any superiority or preference by God, it merely describes a group of people based on geographical origin, and their eventual location. African American is preferred by many because of it's neutral connotations. "Chosen People" is much like "Master Race," it implies one group is better than another because they were chosen by the almighty to perform a task.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Nothing faulty about it

After thousands of years, Jewish people both call themselves the Chosen People and are called it by others.

Those groups did indeed die away. Despite the best attempts of Nazis and terrorists, the Jewish people still exist.

As for the second, it is a term we call ourselves and now others call us. The comparison is valid.

And the comparison of Chosen People to Master Race makes me want to fucking vomit.

[absyntheNsugar]

41. Counter:

"Those groups did indeed die away. Despite the best attempts of Nazis and terrorists, the Jewish people still exist."

Actually, they didn't. Romans still exist, as do Greeks and Aztecs. They have just changed cultrually and (dare I say) racially. As a result, they needed to change their stories out of respect for the new cultures that matriculated into the cities.

The Jews were forcibly removed from their homeland and have been a wandering people since 90 AD, and as a result they had to form tight- knit communitities in order to survive. This is thy the 'chosen people' identification persevered.

And I think the comparison of the two terms is valid, as both imply that preferred status, one by genetics the other by divine appointment.

And please don't vomit - it's bad for your teeth and leaves you with bad breath.

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. They have morphed

The Jewish people have held true to their beliefs.

No, the comparison of the two terms is like comparing the murdering Nazi bastards with those they killed. It is a comparison designed to inflame and antagonize.

It is fucking bullshit.

[LeahMira]

17. Quit it!

How unexpected in an anti-Jewish thread.

Oh, baloney! We had a course in Jewish Studies last semester titled Jewish Mythology. If we're not afraid of the word applied to us, why should anyone else be afraid of it applied to us? Indeed, the Jewish people did "borrow" ideas from the surrounding cultures as they created their own identity. We think we took what was best and left the rest.

:-)

BTW, the Jewish people were chosen to preserve absolute ethical monotheism in the world. That chosen-ness has resulted in our being chosen for a lot of tsouris from those for whom absolute ethical monotheism has been too difficult to maintain and practice. We are proud of being chosen for such a difficult but important mission. Deal with it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Wow, you had a class

I guess that makes the offensive words OK?

Not hardly.

[Djinn]

66. No muddle

and you don't need to patronise people - many jewish people both religious and secular aren't that fond of the term either - feel free to vomit all you like - call me an anti-semite if you like - I'll just laugh, as will my dead grandparents

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. There is a difference

Between disliking the term and comparing it to Nazism.

I have no problem with a fair-minded discussion of the first. I am ever-willing to battle the second.

[Djinn]

73. Beleive me so am I

And I'll use the term anti-semite (although what we really mean is anti-jewish as there are many non Jewish semites) when I think it's appropriate even though it's a term that has been warped and twisted by successive Israeli governments to mean criticism of Israel or criticism of religious bigotry. There is no "jewish" perspective on this I'm afraid - get ten jews in a room together and you'll get more flamage than in this thread. There is no consensus on what constitutes anti-semitism amongst Jewish people. No-one can claim to speak for all Jewish people.

BTW - MOST religions assert that they are the choosen people, they are ALL supremacists, most of the time it's quite benign, sometimes it causes HUGE problems, some people use the choosen people myth (I'll keep calling it a myth in relation to Jews, Christians, Muslims and anyone else that uses it) to justify oppresion of others THAT is a problem, if you just think it quietly to yourself and leave everyone else to thweir business I don't care.

[Skidmore]

20. Many groups tend to think of themselves as being superior

to all others and usually develop some rationale to explain that sense of superiority. I thought my post reflected that this proclivity of groups is not solely limited to the Jewish people. Christians and Moslems believe similarly, and their beliefs are also couched in the language of a covenant with a diety. Many groups which don't embrace monotheistic belief systems also believe that they serve a special role in the scheme of the known universe.

As I said before, perhaps one day we will learn there is not better or best, only different.

[absyntheNsugar]

22. yes...and to quote a sappy but apropos quote

"The only race that matters is the human race..."

It's about time we started living that....

[Misinformed01]

25. "Myth" is not a "flame word"

in this thread.

I am a Religion major with plans for Divinity School (I am an Episcopalian)...and both the Profs and students use the word "myth" to refer to stories in the Bible.

May I suggest that if you have free time, you might want to read "The Power of Myth," by Joseph Campbell.

Stephanie

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. When applied to religion, it is ALWAYS a flame word

We don't think of our beliefs as myth. Just as the atheist crowd doesn't think of theirs as myth.

Here the word is used as an attack word to mock the religious folks. You might be OK with it. I am not.

[Misinformed01]

32. No, it's not

I am sorry you take it that way; however, that is your CHOICE to be offended by the word.

Perhaps you should consider the Joseph Campbell book I suggested. When you fully understand how very powerful myths can be, when you have a grasp of the nature of the and origin of some of these stories in the Bible, it might just help you deepen your faith in God.

Seriously, try it-

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Perhaps you should understand context

That means you have to take everything into account.

After months of DU religious wars, you would think some would learn. Clearly, they do not.

[Misinformed01]

40. I understand context pretty well

and I have been on DU since almost the beginning. My other name is Thtwudbeme.

[Skidmore]

33. Here the word was used not to mock but to point out that

our cultural traditions serve a purpose in explaining why we think of ourselves the way we do to those who do not believe similarly. Like it or not, we don't all share the same beliefs about the greater group we are members of. I was raised Christian and, while I believe in a greater power, I don't share the beliefs of all those of the greater group identifying themselves as such. These cultural conventions are made by men and perpetuated by them, and as we should well know by now, men are not perfect nor do they have perfect knowledge. We are what we believe.

[thingfish]

38. That's YOUR opinion. And it happens to be wrong.

This is the truth, because I am the ultimate arbiter of such things. SO THERE!!!

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. LOL

:)

[Skidmore]

48. Boy, am I relieved that there is actually

someone in the universe who has a definitive answer to all things.

:evilgrin:

[thingfish]

59. I live to serve!

:-P

[Djinn]

70. Bad Luck

you can believe whatever ever you like - WE can beleive whatever we like - if YOU beleive that a carpenter 2000 years ago was the son of God and died for your sins (from memory you're Christian? I apologise if I have that wrong, despite your insistence I have no desire for flamage) THAT'S your right. However it is MY right to beleive that all the monothesitic religions and their practices are based on ancient pagan and other beliefs and are NOT historical fact. How is it that YOUR beliefs are OK but mine are OFFENSIVE?

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. Calling them beliefs is fine

And you don't have to agree with them whatsoever.

However, you should respect them and I should respect yours. But using words that are designed to do just the opposite is destined to start a flame war.

[Djinn]

76. No it isn't

I'm sorry but I beleive they are MYTHS I can not find a better word. I'm not insisting that I'm correct - how could I be any more SURE there is no God than anyone else is SURE that there is one. You may be right, I may be right? But clearly YOU would think MY beliefs are in error? or that when I die I'll go to purgatory if not hell? why is THAT not offensive? but me saying MYTH is offensive? you can think my beleifs are myths surely? doesn't worry me.

[iverglas]

79. will *somebody* buy that man a dictionary?

From the Oxford Concise:

myth
1 a traditional narrative usu. involving supernatural
or imaginary persons and often embodying popular ideas on
natural or social phenomena, etc.
2 such narratives collectively
3 a widely held but false notion
4 a fictitious person, thing or idea
5 an allegory

Many words have more than one meaning. I would direct our attention to meanings 1, 2 and 5.

And NOBODY gets to tell someone else what s/he meant when s/he used a word that has more than one meaning -- particularly when the person using the word is so plainly familiar with the meanings, and the intended meaning being ascribed to that person is so plainly the WRONG meaning in the context of what s/he said.

There is absolutely NO foundation for any allegation that the word was being used in the #3 sense, or even the #4 sense, which are the only senses in which it could be "flame-bait".

Anyone with reason to doubt his/her familiarity with, and ability to understand, the words and concepts used in a discussion would do well to ASK what was meant by a particular word, if s/he understands it in a way that appears pejorative and s/he has no basis for assuming malicious intent on the part of the person who used it.


And, à propos of nothing and no one in particular ...

Sometimes I think that those of us who actually don't make a practice of imputing evil motivation to other posters, and of putting unspoken nasty words in their mouths and thoughts in their heads, should just stop being so damned reasonable and polite. These malevolent/ignorant accusations always seem to come from the same sources, and for some reason have never been regarded as being the incivil and illiberal things they are, so a taste of someone's own medicine occasionally might be just what's needed.

Unfortunately, I don't think I could even make a realistic pretense of such malice or ignorance.

;)

.

[Don Claybrook]

54. Campbell is one of my favorite people

I've seen this ridiculous tripe in several threads where one or two heart-on-their-sleeve people take umbrage at the word "myth" when it's applied to their religion. It becomes instantly clear that they've never read any Campbell (or seen the Moyers or Sarandon-hosted documentaries).

And the worst part, in my opinion, is that no one is regarding Campbell's call to find a new mythology to fit a new age. When you try to force a stale mythology to fit a modern world, people get blown up or otherwise killed. I refer you to the front page of any national daily as Exhibit A.

Lastly, my repeated rant (and this goes a little far afield, but I think it sort of fits here): the Bible, the Koran, all sacred texts that I know of, should be filed in the POETRY section, not in PROSE. However, just because something is a work of poetry doesn't mean it's "true" or "not true" (is "Ode to a Nightengale" true?). It's not measured on that scale. The question should be, "is it relevant"? I think that the Bible and other sacred texts can be relevant, so long as they're ready to be considered dynamic, with their meaning and mythology changing with the times.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Stephanie.

[Mountainman]

8. Well I was raised Catholic and we were the one true religion

All that does is lesson tolerance and understanding. I really think that man has made God in his image and likeness. No one who is truly honest can say that he/she knows what God thinks. I would like to think that God as religions think of him doesn't exist so therefore he can't choose people to be special. Of course I could be wrong, who really knows?

[Skidmore]

11. Yeah, when I consider that, it occurs to me that God

must not be all that--particularly, since we then must be in the image of pettiness, bigotry, hatefulness, greed, gluttony, etc.--to name of few of our less desirable angels. Makes you wonder what heaven is then. Much more of the same--only bigger and better?

[eissa]

10. Never really believed it

I had a hard time accepting the belief that God plays favorites.

[Cat Atomic]

13. I've always found it insulting. n/t

[Roaming]

16. Not offensive IMHO

Substitute "chosen" for the words "set apart" -- I do not think that God's chosing a line of people through which the Messiah would come is racist. The Bible makes it clear that God loves all people. He simply used Abraham's line through which He would complete his plan of salvation for all mankind.

[LoZoccolo]

19. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it also says in there...

...that it wasn't because of anything they did that they were chosen, so it's not supposed to be self-righteous thing - same thing with Calvinism.

[absyntheNsugar]

21. Understood but keep in mind...

When one claims they are of the "master race" they didn't do anything in order to gain that distinction. Kind of like "Proud to be an American" - proud of what? Did they overcome some great hardship to be born here?

[JohnLocke]

23. As a Jew, I must say you misunderstand the concept.

To me this seems no different than saying you're the Master Race. It's implying that my people are better than your people. I find it offensive and racist.

It's not. The whole idea of "the chosen people" isn't centered on the superiority of the Jews, but on their special responsibility and burden to God.

[absyntheNsugar]

31. I understand this argument

And it was fairly well explained in terms of Jacob who was chosen by God over Essau, although he was not the more moral of the two, he was not the stronger of the two and he wasn't all that much smarter (he wasn't the best at negotiating marriages.) He just happened to be chosen by God for his reasons.

But let me counter that it still implies a special relationship that other cultures are not privy to. Having studied anthropology I know every culture, when segregated, holds the belief that they are superior. Protectionism can fuel this - and a good case in point is Argentina. Argentina became extremely isolationist in the 1940's under Peron, beleiving they were the "luz de America" (the light of America.)

This is unhealthy, even if it is to beleive you carry a burden. As it was summed up earlier - we are in this together.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Djinn]

77. And again

You don't speak for all Jews JohnLocke

[Snow]

24. You have _got_ to read this...

great satire on this very topic.
http://satirewire.com/news/march02/chosen.shtml

[terisel]

28. All I can say is that Life and Culture are Strange Inventions

I guess the "Chosen People" concept had a group-binding purpose that helped ensure physical survival for the group.It is like the tribes which use their word for "People" to describe themselves and no other people.

I sometimes think of culture as an entity that desperately seeks to propagate itself-a cultural urge which is the equivalent of the biological urge to propagate.

We reproduce in service to genetic material and we religionize, philosophize, and shape our lives in service to a culture or what we mistakenly think of as race.

When does one get the opportunity to be oneself ?-just an individual finding oneself alive for a few years on a small planet in an immense universe-not knowing where one came from prior to the union of egg and sperm, or whether one is ever going anywhere else.

For some reason your question makes me think that worship of a deity is a cultural invention to help us escape the biological invention of alpha maleness or dominance. The physically meek could gain ascendancy by claiming the need to worship an even stronger invisible force. Outsmarting biology.

[PCIntern]

30. Not asking for a flame war but...

are you intending to start a riot? Do you feed off the angst which comes from decent people being asked whether they have stopped beating their spouses yet?

I too am Jewish, and I've been Jewish for over 50 years and I would like to know which 'part' of you is Jewish. In my experience, people who truly are 'part' Jewish usually say that they're half Jewish or that their mother was a Yid, or their maternal grandmother was thought to have been Jewish, or their father came from a Jewish background but allowed the children to be raised etc.

Your argument is equivalent to saying that someone who drives 29 MPH in a 25 MPH zone is like a mass murderer because both are breaking the law.

Why don't you just ask as simple question like: "Why are the Jews termed 'The Chosen People'"?

[absyntheNsugar]

34. Mother Jewish, Father Anglo

So perhaps I don't score as high as you do - but will you at least agree that the term "chosen" implies at least a small ounce of separation?

BTW...why should it matter how much of me is Jewish - if I turned out to be full Jewish or 1/17th Jewish would that make me less of a person in your eyes?

As for the answer to why I didn't ask "Why are the Jews termed 'The Chosen People'" - it's because I know why. The Bible says so - I read it, studied it and understand it for what it is: the chronicle of one culture in their eyes.

Tell me, if the dominant religion of the world stemmed from the Aeneid would the term 'Chosen People' still be used?

[PCIntern]

44. This is what is important to you?

I didn't state anything about scoring, high or low. What I said was that your attempt to inflame people here is clear and that as most who take a 'moral high ground', you show little compassion or understanding of others, thus your allusion to fascism in the comparison which you made, comparing Jews to Nazis. It is a fallacy and an illogic born of contempt and hatred for, ostensibly in your case, yourself, and certainly for others.

To answer your rhetorical question, no, you are less of a person in my eyes for other reasons, none having to do with your ethnicity(ies).

[absyntheNsugar]

50. You've Misunderstood Completely

"I didn't state anything about scoring, high or low. What I said was that your attempt to inflame people here is clear and that as most who take a 'moral high ground', you show little compassion or understanding of others, thus your allusion to fascism in the comparison which you made, comparing Jews to Nazis."

I'm sorry but one group saying they are better than another IS fascism, whether it's Il Duce suppressing leftists, Nazis murdering Jews or a Jewish state supressing co-inhabitants (that is as far as I am going in that direction.)

It should stand as a warning where this kind of thinking leads. If one group holds that they are above others, then come push to shove what's to keep them from anhiliating a group which is not of theirs because they are not part of their group.

I can cite numerous examples in history where this has happened, and ANY time one group thinks they are superior this is bound to happen.


"It is a fallacy and an illogic born of contempt and hatred for, ostensibly in your case, yourself, and certainly for others."

No, sorry, no self hating Jew here.

"To answer your rhetorical question, no, you are less of a person in my eyes for other reasons, none having to do with your ethnicity(ies)."

Ahhh but because of my beleifs I am less of a person. There was this guy way back in Italy who felt that way...what was his name?

FWIW, You've made some very good points on this issue, and I completely respect that. Perhaps you'd have more luck convincing me if you stuck with those valid points.

Honestly, I would hope that people don't so quickly jump to passion on this issue. Stick with reason and reason only. Keep the insults down - this is not the place for it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Passion

Yeah, it's funny when people take offense when someone compares the Chosen People with the Master Race. Yeah, people are funny when you compare the victims of the Holocaust to the Nazi scumbags who killed 6 million Jews.

[absyntheNsugar]

52. I hate repeating myself

But when one group says they're better than another, this leads to this kind of behavior.

It's an apt comparison.

If I were of Palestinian descent, should I be offended when I hear 'chosen people'?

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. I've never met a group that didn't think it was better than others

So what?

They are suddenly Nazis for having pride? That is warped.

[absyntheNsugar]

55. You keep missing my point

So I'll spell it out in black and white:

Groups thinking they are better than others: BAD

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Comparing religious people and Nazis

= BAD.

It is so offensive in the extreme to compare Jews and Nazis. Most grade school kids would understand that.

[absyntheNsugar]

60. Disagree - divisionist thinking leads one to become like a Nazi

Saying one is better than another will invariably lead one down the road of ethnic cleansing-like activities.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Not hardly

Just because you don't like the thinking doesn't make it inherently wrong.

Take 10 people. Tell them you are going to divide them into groups based on abilities. Now, divide them into two groups randomly.

Both will still think they are the "better" group. It doesn't make either evil.

[Djinn]

78. The Nazi's WERE religious people

I'm not giong to make a "chosen people"/Nazi compairson - it's a sensitive subject - but I do not think that is what absyntheNsugar was doing (although the Nazi's/Aryans also beleive they were the "chosen people" I beleive the point that was being made is that unfortunately some people take the "chosen" epithet as meaning that others are lesser - this leads to all sorts of problems

[PCIntern]

56. OK, let's do that...

You DELIBERATELY stated, with malice aforethought that the phrase "chosen people" was to be equated with "Master Race".

Strike 1.

People always 'misunderstand and misinterpret' your logical progressions. Could it be because they are deliberately anatgonistic and incendiary?

Strike 2.


You advance the notion of righteous belief and then negate anyone who disagrees with you by stating that they are passionate and therefore mistaken, and worse, you act as though you believe that someone is intent upon convincing you as though they have absolutely nothing better to do with their lives and that you, in fact, could be convinced if just the right argument was offerred. We both know that this is utter nonsense. You approached this thread with intent to maim and damage. And you know it - at least have the intellectual honesty to admit it - otherwise, perhaps the Freeper Board would be more to your liking.

Strike 3.

No one else said you were 'less of a person',rather, you did. You invite a mixture of pity and loathing. That's my 'logical' take on your little extravaganza here. The only reason I'm replying to you is not to convince you of anything at all whatsoever, but to show others that those of us who are equated with Nazis will NEVER EVER take that lying down, just as I will NEVER EVER forget Florida 2000.

[absyntheNsugar]

65. My turn

"You DELIBERATELY stated, with malice aforethought that the phrase "chosen people" was to be equated with "Master Race". "

Yes I did, and I still make that comparison. Look, as I argued earlier, if I were to say (because of my Cuban heritage) that I was Chosen by God to type 100 words a minute, besides looking at me strangely you'd feel as if I were making an "I'm-better-than-you" superiority statement.

"You advance the notion of righteous belief and then negate anyone who disagrees with you by stating that they are passionate and therefore mistaken, and worse"

Nope - I'm arguing my point without the use of name calling, calling one 'less of a person' or any of those measures. In debate (and any other sport), you always show a respect for the opponent. I think if anything, you and I do agree this is an issue that needs to be discussed and debated.

I refuse to give into name calling or making this personal. You and I agree on many things - just not this issue. I understand this invokes great passion in you, and the holocaust cannot be forgotten - especially now that schools in America are reducing the victims numbers in history books as we speak.

But my argument is that the thinking of the Nazis (Master Race) is VERY similar to that of a Chosen People. And this kind of superiority absolutely, 100% leads to the actions of the Nazis.

"No one else said you were 'less of a person',rather, you did."

Well, here's your exact quote "you are less of a person in my eyes for other reasons."

[Djinn]

82. interpretation is everything

"Could it be because they are deliberately anatgonistic and incendiary? "

or could YOUR interpretation of it as antagonistic and incendiary be YOUR interpretation.

I didn't find it anything of the sort

[GabysPoppy]

35. Of course you wanted a flame war

First, you have no idea what the term is intended to mean. Then you couch your comments by using words (Master Race) which you knew would bring out the worst in everybody. You may or may not have some Jewish ancestry in your family but it is overwhelmed by a total ignorance of the subject.

Your post is offensive and insulting to Jew and non-Jew equally as much.

[absyntheNsugar]

47. I'm sorry you are offended but I stand by my argument

Chosen people refers to a divine appointment. Perhaps it is bad luck, but it still implies that one group is different and chosen by God to either (Christian Belief - 1) deliver the Messiah to the world or (Jewish Belief - 2) carry a burden. In any case, it does imply a sense of superiority. Now I'm not saying all Jews feel they are superior - any more than all Catholics beleive that they are superior because their church claims they are the one true church. However, when people use these terms, how can they not expect others to not be turned off by them?

I am also part Cuban - If I were to claim that I was chosen by God to type 100 words a minute based on my being Cuban alone, would that imply some sense of superiority?

[NorthernSpy]

57. and you have a right to your reaction

Your post is offensive and insulting to Jew and non-Jew equally as much.


GabysPoppy, you have a right to your feelings, and I'd never deny that. But you really must speak for yourself here. I wasn't offended by Absinthe's post. These are legitimate questions, and I'm confident that they can be discussed rationally and with decency by all parties.

Am I wrong about that?


Mary

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. He can speak for me as well

Comparing the Jewish people to Nazis is about as low as I've ever seen anyone go on DU.

[absyntheNsugar]

81. You must not have ever been to GD2004 Primary then...

and once again, you twist my words like a pretzel in Crawford.

I said "Chosen People" is tantamount to "Master Race." YOU made the Nazi connotation, not me. The British considered themselves the Master Race in the Boer war, as did the Greeks in ancient times.

[GabysPoppy]

67. Except - the poster's premise is totally wrong

It has also been a cause of anti-semitism for years. If you take his version of "chosen people" for fact, the discussion will start off on a negative tone.

I would hope you would be a little more suspect of a statement thrown out for nothing but it's shock value. There is no evidence of any scholarship with this topic by the poster. In fact you will usually find this explanation on the more well know anti-semitic sites.

[absyntheNsugar]

80. GabysPoppy: Please Explain Your Point then, rather than name call

"It has also been a cause of anti-semitism for years. If you take his version of "chosen people" for fact, the discussion will start off on a negative tone."

I had no ulterior motive of being a self-hating Jew here - but analyze the term "Chosen People." You can't honestly tell me it has no connotations of superiority...

"I would hope you would be a little more suspect of a statement thrown out for nothing but it's shock value. There is no evidence of any scholarship with this topic by the poster."

Gabys, I'm sorry you feel that way but I have studied the bible extensively (and you can go through my posts for examples), and my relatives would try to explain it to me - but the defense of the term never held much weight.

Your argument falls flat in that it's saying 'We say we're the chosen, but we're really not' or 'It doesn't mean we're special.'

Please explain to me how "chosen people" is not implying any kind of superiority. I am taking everyone's argument seriously, and with the utmost respect, even when that same respect is not given in kind.

[Terran]

74. Hi GB

If you don't mind, what does "Chosen People" refer to, specifically, if not the generally assumed and "obvious" grammatical meaning? Forgive my ignorance. I have always thought that it referred to the idea that the ancient Jews were favored by the god Yahweh over all others (and as part of that belief, the land where Israel stands was promised to them by Yahweh). Is there more to it than that? Now I'm thinking about the "covenant with God", a concept I definitely need help on...

Dirk

[redqueen]

36. Yes. n/t

[Deja Q]

39. Who said the term is exclusive to the Jewish?

Macintosh users could be 'the chosen people'.

Men could be 'the chosen people'.

Members of the Green party could be 'the chosen people'.

Victims of oppression could be 'the chosen people' - meaning entire "race" groups or even a group of employees in a company.

Chosen for WHAT? You've assumed once with "'chosen people' must = Jewish" line. You're assuming AGAIN that "chosen must = Master Race(tm)".

Context.

[absyntheNsugar]

43. That's just it - it's NOT exclusive

And I take issue with any group who self-identifies themselves as better in any way.

I understand where you're going - but in this case the Chosen People refers to God choosing one people over another, at least if you're using the Old Testament as your basis.

[sangh0]

75. "the Chosen People refers to God choosing one people over another"

God chose them "for what"??? You just seem to assume they were chosen because they are "better".

It's not true.

Also, God did not choose Jews "over another". You really should read more about this. The Jews were "chosen" to enter a covenant with GOd. This covenant requires a commitment from any and all Jews who agree to be bound by this convenant. IOW, Jews weren't chosen to be better, they were chosen to be eligible to enter a convenant (another word for "contract") which places a burden on them.

[Darranar]

46. There are Jews who agree with you...

and have wiped all references to "chosen people" from the prayers.

Personally, I think all religions have some element of this in them. Most people like to think of themselves as more important and better than others, and giving the justification of some all-powerful, all-knowing being granting them this is a handy excuse.

There are plenty of ways to interpret the phrase, so I prefer to look at one's actions rather than one's beliefs.

[gottaB]

61. just watched Deconstructing Harry again

You know the scene where Harry (Allen) argues with his sister Doris, and he's like "They're all your people." That scene has it all. Is Harry's disgust with Zionism an expression of his humanism, as he argues, or is it a case of the self-hating jew syndrome, the internalization of systematic persecution by gentiles? Harry says his self-loathing is generic, but his fiction tells a different story.

I think it's a mature view of identity Allen points to. It's not possible to have absolutely no identity. The tabula rasa is purely theoretical, or rather it's not known as a matter of direct experience, and whatever it's validity for understanding the formation of consciousness or psychic structuration, by the time we reach the level of consciosness capable of reflexivity, we have already been concstructed. Our fundamental ways of relating to the world seem to have been heavily determined, and it requires an extraordinary effort and energy to genuinely transcend these. And in the end it may after all be futile, or, we have to recognize finitude is essential to our being.

So your question, aNs, about being offensive, I don't think it's necessarily offensive to have an identity or to insist upon the acknowledgement of one's identity as a non-negotiable condition for being--many have died for less worthy causes. The potential for abuse resides in the notion that one's identity is superior to or more primary than another's. Of course identity is primary to one's self, but if you extrapolate from your own process of self-understanding, you risk misunderstanding how others define themselves, or confusing your generic non-self with the self of the other, i.e., just because you see yourself as belonging to the chosen people does not mean that others have not been chosen, capiche?

This of course represents a heterodox viewpoint, which, paradoxically, frequently harmonizes with a genre of alienation that orthodox inculcations of identity engender in the empathic soul--How horrible the world seems when even the basest empathies are regarded as acts of treason.

Ach, don't despair. It is not the claim to be chosen which is vile, but its misapplication.

[MAlibdem]

64. i feel good about it

a little arrogant, sure, but it's not racist...unless jews suddenly became a race...

[Nikia]

68. Well the Jews were and are an oppressed people

It reminds me of my Jewish grandmother saying "If people make fun of you and give you a hard time, it is because they are jealous of you." I think of it that way. Jewish religion and culture is different from the cultures that they are surrounded by, in some cases much different, but this is important to Jews. The difference is noticed both by the Jews and the other culture and usually Jews were discriminated against becasue of it. It is a way to say that "Yes, we are different and it is a good difference." I don't know if I explained myself well enough for the point that I was trying to make. Bascially, it is a positive way to handle oppression.

[Moderator]

83. Locking

a comparison between Jews and Nazis is NOT appropriate.