Strange business in a cave in Mexico

[donsu]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3566691.stm

UK cavers prompt diplomatic row

The presence of six British men trapped in a flooded Mexican cave for the past week has provoked a diplomatic row.

Mexican President Vicente Fox wants to know why the cavers - five of whom are military staff - are on tourist visas.

The team, safe in a dry part of the cave, has rejected offers of help from Mexican rescue teams and are awaiting the arrival of UK military divers.

-snip-

"We are asking the British government to tell us whether these people are military personnel, and if they are, what they are doing there."

The Foreign Office confirmed the Mexican ambassador to the UK would lodge a protest, but said: "This is strictly a caving expedition, has no other purpose and any suggestions to the contrary are completely unfounded."
-snip-
------------------------------

the article ends by saying this was just an "adventurous training expedition" and "not on exercise."


tell me, who sits in a flooded cave and turns down immediate help?

what were UK soldiers doing in Mex?

[ewagner]

1. Strange

Very strange indeed..........

[gWbush is Mabus]

2. yes strange

[Nlighten1]

3. If it was just an "adventurous training expedition"

why refuse help and wait for UK military divers? If I was trapped in a cave I wouldn't refuse help from anyone who could rescue me...unless I had something to hide.

[barbaraann]

4. Scouting for a base for overthrow operations to establish

the New World Order? :shrug:

And if, by some wild chance this were true, I would guess it would happen before the middle of next year when elections were originally scheduled for Britain. It sure looks to me like the Anglo/American BFEE is playing some sort of end game to end all end games, but we peons can only speculate...

[DennisReveni]

8. Remember

Remember those Israeli's who attacked the Mexican congress a few years ago?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/mex.html
"Los Angeles, Alta California - October 15, 2001- (ACN) In a mind-blowing development, La Voz de Aztlan has learned that Mexican Army General Rafael Marcial Macedo de la Concha who heads the Procuraduría General de la República (Mexican Department of Justice) has released the retired Israeli Defense Forces colonel and presumed MOSSAD agent Salvador Guersson Smecke and Israeli illegal immigrant Saur Ben Zvi after both had penetrated the security of the Mexican Congress and where in possession of guns, hand grenades and explosives.

This morning La Voz de Aztlan had a personal telephone interview with the Mexican Congressional Press Secretary, Lic. Adriana Lopez, and verified the arrest of the two Israelis after they had entered through the highly secured front entrance of the Palacio Legislativo de San Lázaro. She stated to La Voz de Aztlan that the two terrorists had taken advantage of a situation that occurred around 1700 hours of Wednesday October 10 when a large contingent of Sugar Industry Unionists were entering through the metal detectors. The two Israelis followed about 50 of the unionists to the office of the President of the Mexican Congress Beatriz Paredes. The two Israelis were first pretending to be press photographers but called the attention of the sugar unionists because of their nervous and out of the ordinary behavior. About ten of the unionists confronted them and observed that they were carrying guns and and what looked to them to be explosives. They held the two Israelis until Official Congressional Security personnel took them into custody. The head of Congressional Security Salvador Alarcón verified that the Israelis had in their possession nine hand grenades, sticks of dynamite, detonators, wiring and two 9mm "Glock" automatics. "

[barbaraann]

17. Oh, no, actually I didn't remember that.

Yikes... yikes.... yikes.

[mikey_1962]

5. I lived in Mexico and understand their lack of faith but.......

this is really weird. What could they possibly be doing? Why demand UK rescue team and not USA? This doesn't pass the smell test...

[adriennel]

37. I agree

I don't understand how they could refuse assistance from Mexico (I would pass on Mexican health care, but if it's a life and death situation, I'd want to be rescued from that damn cave ASAP.)Somethin' here ain't right.

[sweetheart]

48. its not really life or death

THey're dry, have water and are in communication with the outside
world. Military people tend to get in a group-think menatlity
that says their only friends in the world are other folks from
their military. Methinks thats all it is... military minds thinking
small.

There are lotsa caves in britain and lotsa folks like to do the
speelunking thing. I wonder how many brits know that america has
caves or caver's. Likely this lack of trust in unknowns plays
a part as well.

[redqueen]

6. Funny business, again

"tell me, who sits in a flooded cave and turns down immediate help?"

Someone with something to hide from the help.

"what were UK soldiers doing in Mex?"

Don't even want to start thinking about it. :tinfoilhat:

[Zero Gravitas]

16. According to the link

they have plenty of food and supplies and were waiting for people with experience in that particular cave to arrive. Either that or they are exploring the Illuminati's global Secret Tunnel Network.

[redqueen]

18. Make fun if you wish

Only time will tell, right?

[Zero Gravitas]

19. Oh please

6 guys in a cave were going to overthrow the Mexican Government? Or just the Ministry of Spelunking?

[redqueen]

21. Did I say they were?

Why are you continuing this, if it's so far outside reality to you?

[Zero Gravitas]

22. why not?

What do you think they're doing?

[redqueen]

25. Any number of things, none of which I'll go into

because I'm sick and tired of being mocked, thanks.

:hi:

[Zero Gravitas]

does that list include

exploring a large cave system?

[redqueen]

29. No

Soldiers don't explore caves. They train in them. Why the tourist visas if they were on a military training expedition?

Scientists and spelunkers explore caves. Not soldiers.

[Zero Gravitas]

30. Army Caving Association

British Soldiers have been exploring the caves for at least 10 years. Maybe its their idea of relaxing fun?

History of Cuetzalan caves exploration.
http://www.vale.org.uk/caves/cuetzalan/history.html#top

Combined Services Caving Association:
http://www.cs-caving-association.com/page_home.html

[Minstrel Boy]

31. why refuse assistance and await a UK military team?

It could all be innocent, spelunking fun, but that raises some red flags.

[Zero Gravitas]

34. according to the link

"Two divers from the Cave Rescue Organisation - one of whom has extensive experience of the Cuetzalan cave system - flew to Mexico from London on Tuesday morning. "

Maybe, since they were in no immediate danger, they prefered to wait for people they knew they could trust and who wouldn't endanger themselves? :shrug:

[redqueen]

33. Did you miss this part?

(Thanks Concerned Canuck)

In London, the British Ministry of Defence insisted the group was part of a proper mission.

"It was official, it was an official military adventure training expedition, they were officially there as military cavers on a training expedition," a spokesman told AFP.

"All military adventure training exercises have a clearance procedure which is completed before approval, and inter-governmental contacts will have been made before the team left the UK," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040326/wl_uk_afp/mexico_britain_caves_040326102738

[Zero Gravitas]

36. So whats the mystery?

Soldiers do explore caves and the Brit Army thinks its good enough training for them to officially sponsor it, so maybe the explanation is that they were there exploring the caves just like they said all along?

[redqueen]

42. Vicente Fox thinks it's something to do

with them using TOURIST visas.

I guess he expected that if they were on an official mission, requiring clearnance, that they'd have it.

[Zero Gravitas]

47. so

the Mexicans are upset that they have the wrong visas. So what?

[redqueen]

49. Well apparently

it doesn't matter to you that they've circumvented formal protocols.

Apparently others think it's more than a 'so what' issue, especially considering that now that they're in trouble, they're forgoing help from experienced locals, giving people the impression there's something to hide.

[Bridget Burke]

41. Yes, but they didn't follow through.

From that article: "Mexico complained that it had not been informed of the presence of the British military personnel, who entered the country on tourist visas."

So the clearance procedure was never actually completed.

[Bridget Burke]

28. No, they're waiting for "UK military divers"

If you check the message section, you'll see a note from a native of Puebla. He explored the caves as a Boy Scout.

So there are plenty of locals familiar with the caves.

[liberalitch]

7. Eh, Greengo...

whaat cho doin' in that cave mahn?

[Beam Me Up]

9. Damn

Little things like this surface, giving us some tiny glimpse of covert operations (or SOMETHING) and then watch, it will disappear without further mention.

"These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Nothing to see here, move along.

[redqueen]

10. "These aren't the droids you're looking for"

Thanks! QOTSA starting up in mental jukebox now. :)

[John BigBootay]

11. That is odd- but maybe the rescue is more complicated

than we know. Maybe their lives would be imperiled by a faulty rescue and they trust the UK cavers more than the Mexican cavers.

Not sure I support any ideas regarding ulterior motives- what the hell would the UK guv want from a Mexican cave???

[RichardRay]

12. Have any of you ever been in a cave?

I don't mean Carlsbad or some tame cave in rural New York, I mean a real cave. I was an active caver for many years, sometimes spending days underground. I've been in caves in Mexico, they are some of the best vertical caves in the world. The British army is well known for having some of the most adventurous cavers (and long distance kayakers) in the world - they're quite eccentric in that way.

I think you can take your tin foil hats off on this one....

[el_gato]

14. offhanded dismissal, maybe you can come up with something better

Who knows what they were up to but it certainly needs to be investigated.

[RichardRay]

43. Occam Rules

Since I don't see a need for anything more complicated in this case I'll just hold'em. If you can come up with something that really suggests there is something that needs an investigation I'll be glad to see the results. Until then, I've got other things to think about, a British invasion of Mexico via underground secret passages just doesn't do it for me.

[Minstrel Boy]

46. please:

"a British invasion of Mexico via underground secret passages just doesn't do it for me."

strawman much?

Imagine this: A team of Russian military personnel are trapped in a US cave. They had entered the country on tourist visas. They are refusing American help, and are awaiting a Russian military team.

You wouldn't think they were invading the US via secret underground passages, but I think you'd have some questions for them.

[RichardRay]

51. OK, how about this

A post earlier in this thread suggests that they were scouting for locations for a military outpost - believe me, a vertical Mexican cave is not a lkely location for anything but useless science and adventure travel.

Another earlier post wonders why anyone would sit in a flooded cave and refuse help. Cavers regularly refuse help from people they don't know. It's part of the culture, and there have been all too many cases in which unqualified efforts to assist cavers have resulted in simply creating more victims. The presence of locals who claim to be familiar with the cave is meaningless. Every teenager who's ever crawled 50' into the dark with a flashlight will make that claim. If I were actually in trouble in a cave you can damn betcha I'd wait for somebody I was confident could help me if I had that option.

There was a question as to why soldiers of the British Army would be in a cave if it wasn't a military expedition. I pointed out that the British Army is famous for eccentric adventure activities and that caving is one of them.

There was a suggestion that they were in the cave system exploring for oil. Any geologists around? Anybody want to comment on the liklihood of locating oil reserves by descending into a water filled cave?

So, yes, there are some quesitons to be asked, and it is not currently my belief that there is enough evidence to get very concerned about.


If you've got a different feeling then go ahead, knock yourself out.

[Bridget Burke]

52. You shouldn't be concerned about it.

It doesn't involve you.

I can understand why the Mexican government is concerned. There are rules about foreign military training in their country. There are also regulations involving scientific expeditions. None of these were observed; "tourist visas" may not have been the best choice.

But it's not your problem.

[donsu]

13. Notice: the article never says were the cave is in Mex.

not even a hint like n. or s.

plunking for oil?

people are going to be fighting over the oil under the Gulf of Mex.

Mex. gov. recently purchased some fast, military type speed boats that could if needed carry nuke fire.

[Zero Gravitas]

20. Cuetzalan Cave System

in Eastern Mexico according the article. It's huge and they've been mapping it for years.

HEre's a link: http://cuetzalan.simplemente.net/en/about/ It even mentions previous British mapping expeditions.

[Trajan]

15. Was Maximilian British ?? ..

Hmmmmm ... recovering the Mexican throne ???

[nickinSTL]

24. Maximilian

:D

Ha!

Actually, Maximilian was Austrian.

[Ysabel]

26. he was austrian...n/t...oops - sorry - somebody already said that...

[Bridget Burke]

27. No, Maximilian was Austrian.

British imperialism in Latin America has been focused farther south. For example, why are Las Islas Malvinas also called The Falklands?

From the article, "Stephen Whitlock, one of the team above ground, said that although it was an official military expedition to support 'adventurous training', the team was there to map the cavern system. He added: 'You've got to disassociate the fact that we're here as military'.

"Views differ about the need for visas, with a spokesman for Mexico's National Migration Institute saying scientific or exploration teams required special visas in Mexico and laws forbade training exercises by foreign military forces."

So, it's an official military training expedition, but it isn't, really, although they're awaiting "UK military divers." I can understand the Mexicans requesting special visas for expeditions; they lost much archeological treasure in the past.

The message board includes this from Rogelio Perez, Puebla (location of the caves), Mexico: "I am familiar with the area and I explored some caverns with my Boy Scouts troop when I was a teenager. Fortunately for these men, there no rainy season until July. But there is too much confusion regarding the real objectives of these cavers. The media is mentioning that the military were surveying the area for radon and uranium."

(Do I detect a bit of scorn for the military machos trapped in a cave frequented by Boy Scouts?)

[ConcernedCanuk]

23. "they were officially there as military cavers on a training expedition,"

.
.
.

In London, the British Ministry of Defence insisted the group was part of a proper mission.

"It was official, it was an official military adventure training expedition, they were officially there as military cavers on a training expedition," a spokesman told AFP.

"All military adventure training exercises have a clearance procedure which is completed before approval, and inter-governmental contacts will have been made before the team left the UK," he said.

LINK

aahhh

GeeDubya wouldn't still be usin' the poodle now would he ?

UK says that Mexico "was informed" , but Mexico says no

who do we believe?

. . :shrug: . .

[wrate]

32. Where's the Uranium

According the the Mexican news radio, the English were looking for Uranium. This caves are west of Mexico City about 200 Kms. About 80 Kms away from Puebla.

A long time ago, I can't remember how long but it must be about 20 years ago or so, the strangest thing happened in that area. People selling Tequila in "home made" barro (mud) containers found out that the barro (mud) was radio active! That is what started all this.

This days (according to the radio news) radio active gases are coming out of those caves and Uranium is suspected to be there.

How about that?

John

[donsu]

35. how very interesting

nt

[havocmom]

38. will the Brits be coming to the Radon mines in Montana next?

I would love to see them "exploring" amongst the geezers and visitors who sitin old recliners in caves to breath in the radon gases many insist are great for their health. I know of some funny hot springs in the mountains near there too. Wonder how that water gets hot, it is sorta far from the Yellowstone magma pool.

Is that your Geiger counter I hear or are you just happy to see me?

[Zero Gravitas]

40. Uranium in Karst formations

The caves are Karst formations & karsts have been associated with Radon gas. Karsts are limestone formations & as such sometimes have a relatively high concentration of radio-isotopes due to their association with biological processes (radio-isotopes can be concentrated in living tissue) hence we see radio active coals and shales. Due to the weathering and cave formation processes in karst formations the radon produced by the radio active decay of uranium is more easily released than otherwise.

The concentrations of Uranium in limestone or other sedimentary rock is nowhere near enough to be useful for any purpose however.

[dave29]

39. The British are coming, the British are coming!!!

n/t

[LeftCoast]

44. Didn't I see this on an episode of Stargate SG1?

:)

[Triple H]

45. What were British soldiers doing in a cave in Mexico???

Were they there as simply tourists? If they were, then why would they reject the help of Mexican rescue teams?

It's strange indeed...

[AngryAmish]

50. Has anyone read "Bravo Two Zero"?

It was written by an ex-SAS sergeant (Andy McNab is his pen-name).

Bravo was about a British SAS patrol in Gulf War I that got compromised and some of the soldiers were captured. IN the book the SAS guys were very careful not to be filmed by the press when released from Iraqi custody because of the covert nature of their work.

It may be that SAS types were in the cave and wanted to make sure that they did not get filmed coming out of the cave. So they wait for British rescue.

This is my silly guess, since this is very strange.

BTW, "Bravo Two Zero" and Mr. McNab's fiction books are excellent.

[ConcernedCanuk]

53. Update and some questions

.
.
.

Of course there's the original question

What the heck were they doing there, but that seems to be getting to the lesser of the concerns . .

Why has the UK changed it's position on what they were doing there?

And they were mapping, - for what?

OK - sorry - the "Update"

Mexico Rejects British Explanation on Cavers

Fri, Mar 26, 2004
MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - A diplomatic rift between Britain and Mexico widened on Friday when President Vicente Fox (news - web sites) refused to accept London's explanations for the presence of a British military group found stuck in a Mexican cave.

/snip/

Mexican Foreign Minister Luis Ernesto Derbez spoke in strong terms.

"We are not going to tolerate on this occasion that no one explains to us exactly what their citizens were doing here," he said in comments published in the Mexican press.

/snip/ . . .

The British Embassy had originally described the cavers as being on a scientific mission and later clarified this to say they were mapping out the cave complex, one of the most extensive in the world.
_______________________________________________________________________

I just get a WEE bit curious when people change their stories