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Do you feel a sense of dread, like me?

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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:14 AM
Original message
Do you feel a sense of dread, like me?
Sorry for being dramatic, but I just can't shake it. This crew, their recent actions, their implosion, and their exposure as desperate criminals, in my mind they are very dangerous right now.

And now that they have a real opponent who they could actually lose an election to, they are preparing something very nasty I'm afraid.
I can't see these men just handing over all this power and wealth without a struggle.

They've invested too much, gone so far they can't turn back. They play brinkmanship, they like to win, and they like to stack the deck. To them, it's all a big chess game, and we all know what pieces we are on the big board.

And so, I have an awful sense of dread, hanging like fog in the air.
Wish it would go away. Ever since 9-11 I've felt it, so have many of you, waiting for that other shoe to drop. Almost as if that were the whole point of 9-11, a feeling of dread, etched into your subconscious.

While the rest of the party is drinking and laughing it up, I sit in the back of the room, quietly assessing the landscape. Not enjoying the party anymore, just want to go home.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. You are not alone.
I see a very un-civil war coming to this country.
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Bronco69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Me too!
I've been feeling it for a very long time.
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shockingelk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Doesn't seem Bush likes his job enough risk being "dangerous"
He's in Washington so little. And has created enough danger in the time he HAS been there to last for FOUR terms ... nation going broke, pornographers jobs in peril ... the last thing he needs is something else to be blamed for.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. I am pretty up-beat but I do hate to see what is going on.
What is most scary is the church/state thing as a church state has always been bad for the people. That we are going so far in debt and may have more wars is really scary. That so many think it is OK is also scary. I will say this, it will most likely not get to me as I am so old but I pity my children and grand children if we stay in this war like way and the churches take over any more.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. I feel the same way
I've been praying about it and trying to find out if there is some way to mitigate what will happen-but I fear something bad is going to happen.
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King_Crimson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. I've had that feeling of dread since 12/12/2000...
MoPaul...when the Constitution was sent packing! I had that feeling of dread when they sent that spy plane too close to the Chinese mainland...trying to provoke a fight with the Chinese. I had that feeling of dread when they refused to be part of the Kyoto treaty...refused to participate in the World Court...treated our allies and the rest of the world with total dis-respect with they said hands off Iraq!
And yessir...I have the awful, gut wrenching feeling that they are planning something very sinister to lay on us! It just may be that taking to the streets may be the only way to bring these weasels down! :mad:
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ablbodyed Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Me too....
But they are so ruthless that they will do anything. Unfortunately there are enough fools to support them that they will succeed. I am convinced that there are already goon squads in place all over the country to intimidate those of us who oppose these thugs. Certainly here in WNY, I know many who would just love to impose a conservative 'Christian' police state. We're doomed.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. I so much do not want to walk this road, and yet more by the day I
feel I am being forced down it. I will not surrender my freedom, or what our democracy was "supposed" to be easily. I am really scared to death you guys. I know I am not supposed to be, but I am. I can't believe we have to start to fight the same fights that were being fought 100 years ago.

Why have we not made it any further than this?
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. I agree, as well, I knew this was going to be bad on 12/12/2000
The Day the Old American Republic Died (may it be restored in the future).

The ONLY question that was EVER important was "How bad?"

The only other relevant question is "Can Free America stop Imperial Orwellian Totalitarian Tyranny from incubating within?"

And I am not certain of the answers to either of these questions.

I just know that I WILL NOT STAND FOR IT!
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moof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
7. The feeling of dread comes from the
unshakable logic that says with almost complete control of the media & the voting machines what makes anyone think they won't win again when this time they can make it appear they really won the election?

But, yes, it is depressing to the point of total devastation.

More & more the line "give me Liberty or give me death" takes
on more of a real way out than just a patriotic slogan.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Welcome to Fallujah.
See you there, only American style.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
8. Dark View, but welcome to our world. Sorry to hear you are in
the same place.

Wish we could wish it all away. Cheers, MoPaul, thanks for coming back. And we will see you on the other side. (Camps and all).
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La Resistance Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. I've brought this up to my friends
all of whom are well-educated, informed, political people. I have warned them to be prepared for the possibility that, when they lose, the Bushies will not turn power over to the rightfully elected President. They will use the Supreme Court, the military, anything to stay where they are, even if it means resorting to violence against the American people. Hell, they may just let something blow up again and decide that it is in the best interest of the country to cancel the elections and declare martial law. My friends think I'm part of some lunatic fringe. I've been right about everything thus far. I declared the 2000 election the last gasp of conservatism, an election they would do anything to win, and an administration/congress bent on doing anything it can to damage the interests of the American people in favor of personal gain. That happened. I said they'd declare a war within a couple of years to settle Daddy's score and profiteer from the spoils of war. That is happening. Thank god for DU where there are other people here thinking like me and inspiring new ideas and keeping me ahead of the game. I fear that the other 99% have fallen too far behind to help us stop this before it's too late, or they may be in denial. As I said after the 2000 Election: Perhaps we have to lose everything, perhaps it all has to burn, perhaps we have to go through times worse than we've ever faced before in order for things to progress toward a better future.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
11. This may give you some comfort, but not much: my perspective:
Edited on Tue Apr-13-04 06:37 AM by seventhson
As most folks here know I fought tooth and nail to keep J. Forbes Kerry from being the nominee.

Like Bill Clinton's ties to the Bushes via the Arkansas banking mafia (Stephens Group/Mena et al), Kerry too is intextricably socipolitically bound to the Bushes in my opinion.

He will NOT upset THEIR social order (send them to jail or dismantle their international crime networks) any more than Clinton did.

If a REAL threat had been nominated (Dean, Edwards, Gore, for example) then I would share your dread.

My dread is really about ten years from now or twenty.

Because Kerry, if elected, will NOT dismantle the BFEE they will continue global fascist corporate enterprises only slightly hobbled by a Democratic President. So the prognois for the long term survival of humanity under Kerry is not MUCH MUCH better than under the Bushes. However - no matter how you cut it - it will be better because, while Kerry may not dismantle the BFEE crime network, at least he will not blindly endorse it and totally let it run wild. His election may mean a few additional decades of human survival as I see it or maybe even a century or two as dangerous as the BFEE cartel is on the environment and glon\bal security.

So I do not fear the apocalyptic doom that you do in the same sense.

I think Nader is a rethug planty to keep Bush in power, but I agree with his assessment publicly: that the Dems are ALMOST as corporate (and even corporo-fascist) as the rethugs.

But Kerry is not a real threat to their power so they have no need to freak.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. Maybe we have a sense of impending doom greater that yours just
Edited on Tue Apr-13-04 08:02 AM by anarchy1999
for knowing there are those with beliefs such as yours.

Nice to know we are going to get Kerry. Four more years, the pain just will not be quite so intense. Thanks, seventhson. I'm definitely in the Kerry camp now. NOT. Your argument makes me believe why bother, what is the use....etc...... Thank god, I've got Kerry to vote for


"My dread is really about ten years from now or twenty.

Because Kerry, if elected, will NOT dismantle the BFEE they will continue global fascist corporate enterprises only slightly hobbled by a Democratic President. So the prognois for the long term survival of humanity under Kerry is not MUCH MUCH better than under the Bushes. However - no matter how you cut it - it will be better because, while Kerry may not dismantle the BFEE crime network, at least he will not blindly endorse it and totally let it run wild. His election may mean a few additional decades of human survival as I see it or maybe even a century or two as dangerous as the BFEE cartel is on the environment and glon\bal security."

Nice picture- let us just shift it out 20 years, okay?

To tell the truth seventhson, I'm shocked at what you have to say. I'm putting tin foil on and believe you have been taken. You are suggesting just let them have it. All we need is another couple of years.......for what?
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. No - You misunderstand my position. All's I'm sayin'...
is that the Bushes do NOT need to pull out all the stops to maintain their global hegemony if they lose the President's seat to Kerry == so there is no need for the same sense of dread which I would be consumed by if Dean, for example, was the candidate.

Dean was an outsider (at least in Washington)

Kerry is the consummate insider.

But that is NOT to say that Kerry is the same as Bush or even Bush lite.

Kerry, like Bush had, will have every opportunity to reconcile his spiritual and humanitarian philosophies with the realities of the office of President. But he is, in my opinion, unlikely - on his own - to unravel the Bush crime family and the war criminal network and the genocidalists . We will not see the Bushes or Rumsfeld in the Dock at the Hague, in other words.

But we MAY see things like peace in the missle east, a gradual and practical withdrawal from Iraq (with UN participation), environmental protection, reduction of greenhouse gasses etc.

Political activism requires that we support the one who will lead us best of the alternatives we have AS A MEANS OF SURVIVAL!!!

Once Kerry is elected we need to lobby for MORE changes (including the prosecution of the current criminals for their crimes). Maybe we can get a Democratic Congress. maybe we can get some progressive Justices on the Supreme Court.

I worry about ten or twenty years from now but I will keep fighting (and support Kewrry in the process) and pray that we progressives can MAKE our country a new frontier for peace and global harmony.

I beleieve Kerry will lead us there if we support him )or at leasst in that direction). It is up to us to take the next step politically once Kerry gets in to push the date of annihilation back another 100 or 1000 or 10000 years -- or as long as the earth can survive. We have the means to do it. The question is -do we have the will as citizens of the world to save future generations.

I have hope -- and I do not believe the Bushes fear Kerry (sine I do not think he will "hurt" them much).

Once they are out of the executive, however, like Al Qaeda, we can roll back their influence and dry up their resources - even if we can't capture and imprison them all for treason, which would be my preference.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
31. Kerry might do a lot better than that
I'm not denying that he's the candidate of the Establishment -- but so was FDR. FDR came in with strong business support, and at first he tried to address the Depression with fairly conventional monetary policies. It was only when those didn't work that he moved leftward and started borrowing ideas from the socialists.

At that point, the business community generally turned against him and decided that he was a "traitor to his class." In fact, much of the rabid anti-New Dealism of the right today can be traced back to that sense of betrayal they felt in 1934-35.

So my best hope for Kerry is that, like Roosevelt, he will discover that conventional methods don't work and that he has to become a traitor to his class in order to save the country.

Kerry does have a conscience, after all, which is more than you can say for any of the Bushies. I like to imagine a little Kerry(1971) sitting on the shoulder of Kerry(2004), prodding him to do the right thing.

But only time will tell.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. Consider: Public fear must not preclude driving around buying shit.
While a minimum fear floor is desired by the fascist neocons, their corporateer backers get the money that fuels the war against democracy from American's main lifestyle:

Driving Around Buying Shit.

Another severe 'action' could disrupt this important economic flow.

So they probably won't do anything drastic domestically, only overseas.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. You are most definitely not alone.
I have the feeling the "sun has set on the American 'empire.' My sadness and fear is losing our moral integrity (bec of this moron) and I really wonder whether we will ever be respected again.

The actions in Iraq have said it all. I think the rest of the world senses our vulnerability. No one likes a bully and that's what we have become.

I know what you mean, from a different standpoint. I am 56 and told my best friend the other day that I am glad I will be "checking out" in the 20-30 years because I don't want to be around when this great country "take the tubes."
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BostonTeaParty04 Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
15. me too. me too. me too. n/t
ugh
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yep...for quite some time. We are on the slippery slope...
...and the angle of the slope keeps increasing with each passing day.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
17. entirely,
when the plane hit the second tower I was watching it a a co workers home and all I could say was, "Our country is now going to change dramatically". I fear for my kids and grandkids, they won't know what it's like to live with out war and fear.
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Striker Davies Donating Member (88 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
18. I got that chill...
Back in October, 2001 when I saw the Junta's reaction to 9/11, and I booked my ticket home to Australia early in January, 2002.

These people have gone too far to permit power to pass to anyone else. They must know that any real investigation of their activities will lead to jail time, possibly the death sentence for treason and War Crimes. They cannot give up the White House under any circumstances.

The "election" is a farce. The result is already programmed by Diebold, but the gap between what the polls will say on election eve and with whatever exit polling is still permitted, and what the machines say will be so huge as to be unacceptable and civil uprising is a strong possibility.

Either that, or some blow-up will occur and the Junta will cancel the elections on the grounds of "national security."

The great mass of Americans have too much decency and love of their country to live with the theocratic military dictatorship that President Appalling Snafu will implement.

One day, they will decide to take back the country, but a lot of blood will flow before they succeed.
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laruemtt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
19. up until lately it was just me here
being the "histrionic" one, but now even "stable" dh says ready the passports - it's about to hit the fan. now i'm concerned.........
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lindashaw Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
20. I keep asking myself why Bush would keep doing such irresponsible
things that affect our lives.

In everything, from the war to the environment, Bush seems to not care how bad the future is going to be. As crazy as it sounds, I wonder if the reason he doesn't feel any alarm is because he thinks that the Zionists are right and the world is going to be blown up and he'll be raptured to heaven. All the infidels who don't believe are just so much fuel for the fire, anyway, according to this belief, so it won't matter how bad it gets. There simply is no logic to his going deeper and deeper and deeper into hopeless policy.

So, yes, you feel powerless. Ordinary people can't battle such senseless policy. I have very bad feelings. And sad.
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. I feel the same.
A devastating "terra" attack, massive diebold vote fraud, or some other outrage is imminent I'm afraid. They won't go quietly.
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yellowdawgdem Donating Member (972 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
22. so many kinds of worries
I am hesitant to say that I have a sense of dread, because it doesn't fully describe the feeling that I have, which is more just stirred up. Well, I guess I alternate between feeling super worried about a police state, etc etc. and the hope that somebody will come up with the goods- whether that is the cia, or 911 commission, or the International community. It feels like more and more people are trying to do something- I don't know if we will do it quickly enough, but.. I was surprised to see that moveon.org is having bake sales all over the country this weekend. And when I checked the 707 area (where I live), I was just amazed that every single town along the north bay is organizing something. I mean, that might not be the same as getting out in the streets and creating a full blown revolution, but it does show a great deal of awareness. I can see the reality in the worry that the admin. will tighten its grip, as people organize and fight. However, I really think it could also be the opposite, since bullies often back down when confronted.
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
24. The basic worry is the Nov. election
It can be stolen electronically. Elections are supposed to be a check on the wanton excercise of power. If this is gone, I think we're headed to some awful state of perpetual war and totalitarianism. Considering the interference of BMI in exit polling last election by the media consortium, I believe that election results were bogus in some races in 2002.
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
25. We all feel afraid, I think.
Whatever your views on 9/11, it is not a comfort to hear the National Security Adviser say "There was no way to stop it." Our own government is telling us they had no control and no ability to protect us. That single fact should scare hell outta anybody that is awake.

The bottom line for me is that we live in a time where it is possible to accept the idea that our government allowed something like 9/11 to happen (let alone, maybe MADE it happen!) or even screwed up so badly that it DID happen. No wonder we all feel fear--especially on here where we have access to info that 99.9% of the US population probably never reads or hears.

Even the folks who voted for the chimp last time are coming to the point where they realize he's not what they thought he was. I see it daily in the number of folks who tell me, "I voted for him last time but not this time because..." I see it in the number of folks on here who report that same news. I see it in the media in unlikely places--like Pat Buchanan being critical of what is happening.

There is a "knee level wind" right now (that wind is created by guys who are so afraid their knees are knocking together) and it is coming from BOTH sides. They are afraid they are gonna be exposed as either lying sacks of crap or else bumbling idjits. We are afraid they won't be exposed in time to prevent four more years of this.

People do irrational things when they are that afraid. If you AREN'T worried right now about our nation's future you aren't paying attention.


Laura
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sleepystudent Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
26. Please...
There seems to literally be a thread with nearly the same exact wording and content every single day on here-someone saying "Is it me? Are you scared like me? We. Get. It. Everyone is frightened of what could happen in November. All this sense of dread conspires to do is to keep people from being proactive about getting this man out of office and persist in posting redundant threads like these to people who agree with them whole hog. So some people need to just get over themselves and their feelings of dread and go do something. If you want something to fear, do nothing, and let that monster win, and then you will see true dread.
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. What Sleepy said
.
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ellie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
27. I did until I realized that
they are too stupid to do anything. I get the feeling that the public's impression of them is king, but the real power behind the throne is their campaign contributors. Martial law? I doubt it if it is going to prevent people from shopping. Buscho's corporate masters won't like that at all.
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. buck up duers
this is not the time to feel afraid, it's a great opportunity to slay the beast, we must keep getting the truth out and not roll over in a morose daze
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
29. I used to feel this "dread" -- I don't any more.
They've already told us there is going to be another so called "terrorist attack" and they've already told us that it is going to be a hundred times more deadly than 9/11.

They've already told us that when this happens, martial law will be declared in this country.

And we already know that when this happens, the terrorist aspects of it, the psychological consequences of it, will be BROADCAST through the media as shock and awe through every strata of our society. Not only ours, through every society around the world.

This is their game plan. WE KNOW IT. And this is our one advantage. We KNOW what they are intending to do. We SEE that they have already put in place an INFRASTRUCTURE that will allow them to aggregate and centralize their power. Soon--when, not one of us can say--they will play their hand. Will it be this summer--or perhaps during the conventions? Will they wait? Will they put a Democrat in the White House to lull us back to sleep before they hit us with the big one?

I do not "dread". I grit my teeth and I seethe with rage. I sharpen my pen and my mind! These narrow minded, week kneed, greedy bastards want to TEST themselves against the deepest resolves and highest asparations of humankind?

BRING IT ON!

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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
30. Almost posted same idea this morning -- thread on simulated urban warfare
Edited on Tue Apr-13-04 11:03 AM by lostnfound
prompted me to want to write about it. Like dr Strangelove (Cheney) is out of the country; and dr do-little (bush) is on vacation; we have simulated urban warfare happening in our cities.. I have a sense of foreboding about it all, too.

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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
32. Ominous warnings
The “war on terror” and American democracy—some ominous warnings
By Patrick Martin
27 November 2003

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/warn-n27.shtml
excerpt:
“It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event somewhere in the Western world—it may be in the United States of America—that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass, casualty-producing event. Which in fact, then begins to unravel the fabric of our Constitution. Two steps, very, very important.”

Frank remains a fervent supporter of the Bush administration, describing Bush as “a very thoughtful man,” and declaring, “Probably we’ll think of him in years to come as an American hero.”

But according to Franks, it may be under the administration of this “hero” that “the Western world, the free world, loses what it cherishes most, and that is freedom and liberty we’ve seen for a couple of hundred years in this grand experiment that we call democracy.”

The retired general placed the responsibility for this possible turn to dictatorship on “our population,” and was silent on what role the military leadership or the Bush administration would play in its establishment. The American media has apparently failed to ask him anything about it since.

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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
33. The one thing in me
that prevents me from thinking this way is the belief that Kerry does not cause the real power brokers in this country to lose any sleep. Would the neocons try a move in desparation to save themselves? Oh hell yes.
The bankers and industrialists who run the good 'ol USA aren't stupid. They can see that this little experiment of elevating the village idot to the highest office in the land has not worked. Sure they've enriched themselves with tax breaks and the gutting of regulations, but cooler heads among them can see that chimpy threatens the stability of the planet.

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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Only problem: The bankers and industrialists who funded Hitler
thought the same thing.

Things don't always work out the way we think, even for Bankers and Industrialists.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
35. Dread is the new realism. The next shoe is getting ready to drop, and
when it does, it'll be a doozy.

This isn't politics as usual. The Cheney/Bush junta represent something Wholly Other, yet something which, at the same time, is the natural fruition of the past 50 years of "politics as usual." It's the apotheoisis of the National Security State, the shadow government out of the shadows. And it is not going to be defeated by something as quaint as the toothless fallacy of American democracy.

Hang on, and hold on. We're all in for a shit storm, wherever we are. But those who know it's coming will, at least, see it coming.
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Justpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
36. Same here.
I have been feeling this way for a very long time. I do not
have much to add to the previous excellent posts except to say
that I'm glad others share the same thoughts.

I too believe there will be a civil war in this country soon.
The thought of participating in Bush's world vision where all of
the universe is remade into the neocons image and likeness and
the rest of us work to support them is unacceptable. Having been
born a free person, I'll be damned if the likes of a smirking,
arrogant, ignorant thug like Bush will take away my rights to
free speech and thought.

I have been re-reading "Lincoln on Democracy", edited by Mario
Cuomo all week. In a speech he made Sept. 11, 1858 he offers these
thoughts to his fellow citizens who were intent on legislating
slavery into the new colonies. Speaking of the spirit of liberty
he says: "Destroy this spirit, and you have planted the seeds of
despotism around your own doors. Familiarize yourselves with the
chains of bondage, and you are preparing your own limbs to wear
them. Accustomed to trample on the rights of those around you,
you have lost the genius of your own independence, and become fit
subjects for the first cunning tyrant who arises. And let me tell
you, all these things are prepared for you with the logic of history,
if elections shall promise that the next Dred Scott and all future
decisions will be quietly acquiesced in by the people."

When he refers to "all future decisions', he must have had something
like the 2000 election in mind, where the Supreme Court installed
a leader into our country against the will of the people. And we
quietly acquiesced to it. There are times when I feel that we are
a nation of cowards unworthy of our own heritage.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
37. What election?
Edited on Tue Apr-13-04 11:52 AM by BevHarris
My gut feel is that your gut feel is right, MoPaul. And -- though the attempts to open doors to cheat are getting more and more brazen -- some people surely know by now that they might not even be able to cheat their way out.

I'm worried about the election, but I'm also worried there won't be one.

Bev
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
38. I worry too, but you know what
I try to remind myself that there is still hope. There are an awful lot of people who are concerned about the direction our country is going in. They may not be the majority, but there are still a lot of them and they have the intelligence, the willpower, and the staying power to see that our country is set to rights again.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
39. Dread rising from a no-win situation.
I use the phrase no-win situation because Bush will be in power for at least another nine months. Nine months of more fuck-ups in Iraq, more restrictions on civil liberties, destruction of the environment etc. ad nauseum. Bush's numbers will continue to go down through the summer as gas prices go through the roof while troops continue to die for Halliburton. The Democratic Convention should give Kerry a commanding lead, then the Republican Convention will narrow the gap. Nothing unusual so far.

But October will be no Surprise for anyone paying attention. The whole month should be one big Orange Alert, occasionally slipping into Red when Bush feels public support waning. Rove will have his eyes and ears all over the polls. If Bush gains a significant lead, then there will be no attack and Bush will be portrayed in the corporate media as having vanquished the threat. If the race is too close to call, they may order an attack to stop the election, or they may just let Diebold install the Thief. If, like Spain, the public reacts adversely and swings in a large majority over to Kerry, then there will be an attack to shut down the election and perpetuate martial law. Say all you want about both candidates being Skull and Bones, Kerry has no ties to the PNAC and THEY cannot allow Kerry to take their base of power away.

When I try to imagine the miracle, that somehow Kerry can overcome the Diebold/BFEE conspiracy and take the election, the only reason I could see that happening is if Bush fucks things up so bad in the Middle East that they want the situation given to Kerry so that his hands are tied. If Iraq is so chaotic that, despite Kerry's begging, the U.N. refuses to send troops, Kerry may end up playing Nixon to Bush's LBJ, using the Vietnam analogy. Perhaps the BFEE is hoping that Kerry will not create his 10 million jobs and that they can paint his foreign policy as ineffectual, like Carter, and put Jeb Bush in position to take back the White House in 2008. I like to hope that a Kerry Administration would be like Clinton's Administration and create hope and prosperity for America.

But maybe that's just wishful thinking.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-13-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. Spot on MoPaul-
"I can't see these men just handing over all this power and wealth without a struggle.
They've invested too much, gone so far they can't turn back."

This is the crux of the matter, as the saying goes.
They are NOT going to turn back- no how, no way.
Any one who does not dread the implications of that
fact is BRAIN DEAD. DELUSIONAL.
The protests, the investigations, the letters and calls-
they are gnats of minor annoyance to the powers that
be. WE, the people, mean NOTHING to them. They will not
hestitate to swat us dead for they can do so with complete
immunity from all consequence, as we have seen
repeatedly. The Rule of Law is OVER. The Rule of Chaos
has been firmly established in its place.
The ONLY thing that will turn this train around is in the
hands of the military families. When the deaths of
their loved ones surpass that of Vietnam, perhaps then,
the people of this country will refuse to send their children
to die for the Empire. No soldiers, no empire.
Question is, how long will it take for them to say
enough? I still see them on television saying how
proud they are that their son or daughter died serving
our country- THEY STILL THINK WE HAVE A COUNTRY!
They are completely unconscious of the fact that we
are being governed by global corporations who make
NO distinction in "countries" or citizens. At the moment,
the US has the most available and "willing" supply of
cannon fodder due to the fact that the people in this
country do not begin to comprehend what is actually
happening. They are DELUDED, self righteous and ignorant.
Perfect qualities for empire building. It will get MUCH
worse before it gets better, and I do NOT expect it
to get "better" in my life time. I am full of dread because
I understand COMPLETELY what is intended from here out.
WE are all Rachel Corrie, and those ARE tanks heading
our way. We WILL be crushed and there is not a DAMNED
thing we can do about it. It is not a question of
stopping those tanks, it is a question of how to survive
their advance.
Dread doesn't even beging to describe the way I feel
most days. More like HORRORIFIED and HOPELESS.

I am EXTREMELY grateful for you and all the DUers though.
It is helpful to know I am not alone in this terrible thing
that is happening to the world.

BHN
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-14-04 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
45. I'm more concerned tonight . . .
. . . now that shrub blew his performance. The WH has to be on spin cycle. I sense a very big wag-the-dog on the horizon. :scared:

TYY
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