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rogerashton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:26 PM
Original message
So, just what is democracy?
I’m a little late, but this comes from a recent thread on “small-d democracy.” One respondent expressed opposition to “small-d democracy” on the grounds that it means mob rule. That claim has been a right-wing talking point since the time of Pisistratus, so it was a little shocking to read it on this board! But, on the positive side, what does “democracy” mean? Here’s my take.

First (contrary to some recent guff coming out of the establishment) democracy is not about “freedom.” Democracy and liberty are distinct values – yes, interdependent, but distinct.

Democracy is about equality. Democracy is about equal say.

It seems to me that democracy is about everybody having a say in decisions that affect them. In an ideal democracy everybody affected has equal say. Of course, that is an ideal, and ideals are only approximated in reality, but it is helpful all the same, because we can say that one system is more or less democratic than another, and give reasons for saying it. For example, a system in which women have the vote is more democratic than a system in which women are denied the vote, because the vote is one way that a person can have a say, and denying women the vote means that they have even less say than they would have when they cast a vote. I am not saying the female suffrage made the world perfect, or even perfectly democratic – only that it made the world more democratic than it had been, and that’s reason enough for any small-d democrat to support it.

And we can say that a system in which all adult men have the franchise is in turn more democratic than a system in which only rich white men have the franchise. Manhood suffrage is still less democratic than universal suffrage, but more democratic than a franchise limited by property and race.

What about protection of minorities? Notice that “equal say” may or may not be a matter of counting heads. From the viewpoint of equal say, majority voting has some advantages. Those advantages are strongest when everybody is about equally likely to be on the losing side of the next issue. When there is a permanent minority – like Catholics in Northern Ireland, to take just one example of many – they will have little or no say, even if the votes are counted ever so carefully. In a case like that, deviations from majority rule to protect minorities improve the standard of democracy.

Similarly, no-one can have an equal say when she is dominated by a colonial overlord, padron, commissar, gauleiter, or male lord and master. Liberty and democracy reinforce one another.

Probably most small-d democrats will agree with much of that. But now I am going to get a little more controversial.

Class systems are antidemocratic. Concentrations of wealth are antidemocratic. When money talks, democracy is undermined, because the voice of money can never be equal. A society with huge concentrations of wealth (capitalist) can never be as democratic as a society without class distinctions (socialist) can be at its best.

Every decision made by the organization that employs me is of concern to me, but I have little say in any of them. A society in which the workplace is divided between bosses and workers is less democratic than a society in which the employees cooperatively run the business.

Taking the last two together, cooperative socialism is more democratic than “democratic” capitalism.

Unfortunately, I am going out of town and do not expect to be able to respond to comments on this post. If copies are sent to me at mccainra@drexel.edu, I will try to make some responses in a couple of weeks.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. I've been using this defintion for a while
Edited on Wed Jul-09-03 02:29 PM by Jack Rabbit
It serves me well.

Democracy is a state where:
  • Citizenship is universal;
  • Each citizen has an equal opportunity to participate in and influence civic affairs;
  • A set of guaranteed civil liberties is in place to assure full, free and open discourse on civic affairs.
It goes a long way in explaining why the Jim Crow South is an example of majority rule that is not a democracy.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I like your definition but....
it sounds a lot more like a definition of Civil Society, rather than a democracy, as none of those elements by have to exist in a democracy.
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rogerashton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well, I'm not out of town yet.
I don't quite agree with the equation.

These are all institutions that protect a greater degree of equality of say than there would otherwise be. In that sense they are democratic institutions -- maybe not necessary by definition for democracy, but highly correlated with democracy in any real society of this epoch.

A substantial civil society may be one of those things that favors equal say, in any event.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Au contraire
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 08:18 AM by Jack Rabbit
I consider that definition to be part of a Platonic exercise. This is the eidos of democracy by which all concrete occurances that claim to be democracy may be compared. No real world democracy is perfect. Two reasonable people, both using the above definition, may disagree about whether a particular concrete occurance is a democratic state.

Accordingly, in order for a state to be properly democratic, all three of these elements must be met, although a venial violation should not be held to disqualify. Ideally, a democratic state should have neither a state religion nor a crowned head of state. Many European nations have both, yet otherwise could be called democratic using the above criteria. A more critical discussion might be whether America in 2003 is a democracy. I would hold that it is not and has not been for some time. In America, those at the upper rungs of the social ladder have too disproportionate voice in civic affairs for America to be any longer thought democratic.

Historically, this definition would deny the designation democratic to many of those states that previously held it. In ancient Athens, cistizenship was restricted to property-owning males (violating the first criterion) and a citizen could be banished or put to death for dissent (violating the third). Nineteenth century America also refused women the right to vote, enslaved Africans and their descendants and murdered the natives for their land. By contemporaneous standards, we might call these standards, these states could be called democratic, but if a state existed today with those characteristics, its claim to be democratic would be met with alternate expressions of ridicule and horror.

However, sir, if you think you have a better definition, I would be happy to entertain it.

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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-09-03 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Democracy is mob rule
Fortunately this is a democratic republic which has inalienable rights written into its fabric. A pure democracy is mob rule. While it gives everyone a voice the minority will be drowned out by the majority on any issue. In a pure democracy a vote to put you to death could be brought to the floor and voted on. If it passed you would be put to death. There are not rights inherant to a democracy.
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rogerashton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. A typical underhanded tactic of the propagandist
is to define what he wants to denounce in terms that no-one in the defined group concurs with. Thus, the fascist or "optimate" (to use an equivalent term from the Roman Republic) defines democracy as mob rule. But, in fact, when we read history we find that it is the optimates and fascists who unleash the mob and set off bloodbaths. On the other side, no one who advocates democracy, here and now, advocates mob rule. So this post deserves no respect whatever.

It would make more sense to say that Republicanism is mob rule -- not that either claim makes enough sense to justify the energy required to type it in.

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MaryBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Not necessarily.
"So this post deserves no respect whatever."

While a post does not necessarily deserve respect, all posts deserve respectful responses here.

One point not mentioned in the discussion of democracy is the essential role played by a literate, informed populace capable of critical thought.

"Democracy" with a d of either case, is simply a descriptive term regarding how a group of people manages itself. The word can describe the governance of everyone living in a land, or of a family. The ideal of Mr. Rabbit, as I understand his words, is to think of democracy in terms of all adults within a geographical area.

The word and definition are limited for our purposes, and could better be combined with other terms and phrases such as republic, balance of power, etc.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. That's fair to say

The ideal of Mr. Rabbit, as I understand his words, is to think of democracy in terms of all adults within a geographical area.

By "universal citizenship" we should mean that all who are native born of that geographical area as well as those who swear allegiance to that state (become naturalized citizens) will be enfranchized upon reaching a certain age.
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MaryBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Mr. Rabbit, would you place
limitations based on mental ability or social behavior?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. No
Citizenship shall be universal, equal and inalienable.
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MaryBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thank you for that clarification, Jack Rabbit. Would you please
expound upon how you would assure that

"Each citizen has an equal opportunity to participate in and influence civic affairs;"?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. As the specifically afflict America?
I assume that's what you mean. I did say elsewhere on this thread that I would hold that America is no longer a democracy owing to the disproportionate power and influence the wealthy have over civic affairs. This power comes from their control of the media and their footing the bill for political campaigns.

Broadly speaking, I would institute media and campaign finance reform. Let's move towards full public financing of political campaigns. Also, let's restore some of the old ownership rules that allowed for a more diverse media than we now have and reinstate the fairness doctrine.

Specifics would be the subject of other threads.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Perhaps you misunderstand
Are you taking issue with the word mob? A mob is just a collection of people. A pure democracy is simply the largest group of people deciding what to do. That is mob rule.

Are you reacting to the use of the word Republic? Well the US is a Democratic Republic. The Bill of Rights and the Constitution are what make it a Republic. Just because the Republicans have a name that is similar does not mean that support of the Republic is supporting their agenda. In fact you will find that rolls have reversed over the decades. The republicans were once the liberals and defenders of rights. They have shifted. Most modern republicans snear at our Rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

A Democratic Republic recognises that there are certain Rights that cannot be given away. It also recognises that there are matters to which we must turn to the people to decide and that each person should have a voice in the matter. They work together to create a more perfect union.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Democracy is the opposite of "mob rule"...
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 06:03 PM by Dirk39
Hello from Germany,
let me be a bit of a "Kantian". Democrazy is a principle, and this principle implies, that decisions can be wrong, that things have to be reconsidered.
This means that the principle of democracy is to defend the minorities against the majorities. Democracy implies that majorities change, that people make mistakes, that they might be corrected by the people, who are part of the minority now. I would go further and state, that a society that accepts death-penalty can't be democratic. Death penalty destroys the democratic principle, that the decisions of a court can be wrong and additional that people can change.
Your definition is rather etymological, but political philosophy has developped those principles of democracy out of the historic and the etymological meaning.

"In a pure democracy a vote to put you to death could be brought to the floor and voted on"
No, no, no. What if the people are wrong? And you are the one, who would convince them that they were wrong. If they kill you, they kill democracy.

Greetings,
Dirk
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Granted, and yet
A pure democracy is unchecked by any laws or rules. It is majority rule. If the majority say you die, your dead. That is simply the definition of pure democracy. Its not pretty. It is unrefined.

Let us look at some base definitions. From www.m-w.com

Main Entry: United States of America
Variant(s): or United States /yu-'nI-t&d-'stAts, especially Southern 'yü-"/
Usage: geographical name
country N. America bordering on Atlantic, Pacific, & Arctic oceans; a federal republic capital Washington area 3,619,969 square miles (9,375,720 square kilometers), population 249,632,692

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
Pronunciation: di-'mä-kr&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dEmokratia, from dEmos + -kratia -cracy
Date: 1576
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2 : a political unit that has a democratic government
3 capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S.
4 : the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

Main Entry: pure democracy
Function: noun
Date: circa 1910
: democracy in which the power is exercised directly by the people rather than through representatives

Main Entry: re·pub·lic
Pronunciation: ri-'p&-blik
Function: noun
Etymology: French république, from Middle French republique, from Latin respublica, from res thing, wealth + publica, feminine of publicus public -- more at REAL, PUBLIC
Date: 1604
1 a (1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government c : a usually specified republican government of a political unit <the French Fourth Republic>
2 : a body of persons freely engaged in a specified activity <the republic of letters>
3 : a constituent political and territorial unit of the former nations of Czechoslovakia, the U.S.S.R., or Yugoslavia

I don't think anyone here is in disagreement that we favor a system which sets in place certain inalienable rights and provides for a duly elected representation of the people, for the people, and by the people. According to the definitions of the various terms this system is refered to as a Democratic Republic, aka a Federal Republic.
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MaryBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. kick
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Democracy" means "Crony Capitalism"
I don't mean the dictionary definition, I mean the working definition. When Bush or someone like him says they want to bring "democracy" somewhere, that means they want to open markets for their campaign contributors.

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MaryBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Do not let
the misuse of a word determine its meaning.
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TheBigGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
16. We are a Republic, not a Democracy.
this is a favorite line from the right wingers.

But how can a republic not be a democracy? To me a democracy means, ultimately, popular sovereignity.

Which can take many forms. Like the type of democracy we have...a representative Republic, with checks and balances between a legislature, executive, and judiciary.

Then there are direct democracies, like the old "town meetings" of New England.

Perhaps there are other forms too.

But I dont see how we are not a democracy.

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Friar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. but maybe we're
a democratic republic. :)
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Friar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
18. start with the dictionary
Democracy:
1) Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2) A political or social unit that has such a government.
3) The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4) Majority rule.
5) The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

Then compare to other forms of government, ie. Monarchy, Oligarchy, Anarchy, Fascism, Communism, Socialism, Totalitarianism, dictatorship etc.

It's kind of complicated when you get into it. Is the British Parliamentary system democratic? Well, sort of. Search the net for the excellent dissertations available. For myself, democracy means voting the fascist VRWC out of government.

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MaryBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Friar, you have mixed
economic and political systems in your list.
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Friar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I know
but you can't really seperate economic systems from the political. They are so intertwined as to be inseperable.I said it was complicated :)
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MaryBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I think one word descriptors of economoic-socio-political systems
are simplistic. For example, one could use the terms

Communist dictatorship
Communist democracy
Capitalist democracy
Oligarchical fascism
Democratic socialism
Capitalist fascism

for a start.
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