Cautionary Revolution...

[Solon]

I see people on this board talk, occasionally, about what will happen this November if * attempts to steal the Election again. Usually talk of a second American Revolution or similar reactions are posted. Some things I wanted to point out for that eventuality.

1--If a revolution is to take place, we would need a third of the population minimum to be with us. That means popular support for ousting *, it also means that such a revolution should NOT start with violence. Imagine the reactions of the American People if on section of the population rebels actively, they would have no problem if the government uses any and all means to put down such a revolt. A national strike would be a good start, also mass demonstrations in Washington D.C. and around the country, Texas would be good :)

2--Guns will do little good, at least at the start of the non-violent protests. Take out of your head any notion that because you have guns in your home that you are any safer from the government. If the brown shirts (FBI, ATF, local SWAT) decide to raid your home and capture you for "dissent" you can do nothing about it unless you have advance knowledge, then you run. At best you will be "detained", at worst you go out in a "Blaze of Glory" that accomplishes nothing. Our best weapons are our minds, we need to use our heads, and ORGANIZE.

3--There is no chance in hell, if an armed revolution is to take place, that we can do it alone. As Rebels we can be crushed easily in this country, particularly if the Military would be called back to the States. However, they may not be needed, their are "Military" type police forces here, who already have contempt for civil liberties and of "Iconoclasts" in general. Not all of them, but enough to make them dangerous foes. We would need International support, which means that their should be one organization or supra-organization that can be used for negotiations. Their is equipment and weapons that are simply too hard for citizens to acquire that would be needed. We need a "Public Relations" department that would be based outside of the country that can appeal to people around the world for support.

I am simply pointing out the difficulties associated with armed rebellions and "regime change" in this country. I am not advocating such an action in any way, for it is the worst scenario I can think of. Let us hope that * is voted out, Constitutionally. Even if validly elected (for the first time :)), I would not oppose the election but his policies in general, and try again the next election. This is assuming, of course, that he is not impeached first. :crossed fingers:

[lapfog_1]

1. Revolution

be very careful here.

http://www.infoshop.org/pipermail/infoshop-news/2001-November/000268.html

If we feel the election was somehow not legal, we should avail
ourselves of all legal remedies.

[Solon]

2. I pointed that out, thank you

I only posted this to point out difficulties in Revolutions so to detract people from using them as a first resort. We must use all legal outlets if the election is questionable, but also prepare for the worst. A revolution is only legitimate if there is literally no other choice, otherwise we would be no better than the ones we would be fighting.

[mhr]

3. Given The History Of Bush, Would There Be Any Other Option?

Your post is very rational et cetera. However, we already know from experience that Bush has the Supreme Court behind him and the voting system appears to be rigged.

We know that there is nothing that will change the court short term; we also know that there is not much that will change with the voting system short term. So we know that very little is different from 2000.

Given what we know, the only question is will there be enough outrage to support his ouster given a win? If there is enough outrage what will be the best method for channeling that outrage. If the grievances are not addressed then what is the end stage of protest. Typically, though not always, that is revolution.

You are right in that outrage over a Bush win cannot start with violence. However, assuming his win and a popular protest, long-term violence is an obvious outcome. For this to happen, grievances over a second appointment will have to fester and stew in peoples minds. Properly agitated with truthful propaganda this should not be hard to foster. (truthful, disturbing Bush propaganda is not hard to find)

What will happen? Who knows!

[Solon]

5. I would be careful

As I said, we cannot do this alone, so WE must show legitimacy in our grievances. Even if the rest of the world hates *, if we do not have a true grievance then you can kiss support, even "under the table" support good-bye. As I also said, Public Relations and grass root publications are a must, also we need our own independent ways of collecting intelligence of grievances. It is possible that * can be, for the first time, legitimately elected, and in that case I would be even more cautious. Even if that were the case, he could decide to clamp down on "Terrorist Sympathizers" and "Dissidents" and if he decides to go that route, then those of us who are targeted will need to collect the evidence necessary to take to the American People. Eventually we could use the truth to oust him, but only if necessary. The thing I fear is that if we don't tread carefully then the government to come could be even more brutal than what we fear from *. This CANNOT be a partisan battle, that is possibly the worst case scenario that I can think of, we need to emphasize Human Rights and the Rights of Citizens, NOT due to * politics in general. If the worse case scenario plays out, we would not be fighting a Republican, we would be fighting a Tyrant.

[izzie]

4. I think this is sort of silly. Look at it this way. 40% do not vote

I am willing to bet most of the people running around with guns on week-end have signed up as guns for hire by now, and people are just not into such things. Not in this party. Now in the Right wing who knows. They do not speak unless they are willing to kill some one or loving the whole thing. I do not know how you feel, but a religious nut with a gun is really scary in my eyes.

[mhr]

6. The Question Is Are You Willing To Be Subjugated By A Religious Nut

Bush or otherwise?

[Solon]

7. Actually, push come to shove, we can fight back.

Also I doubt that most "Gun nuts" are Soldiers of Fortune, though a few would not have a legal qualm about putting down a revolution. Generalizations are wrong, so I refrain from them. That applies to those on the left as well as the right. I do not own a gun, however that doesn't mean I can't or won't fight. I do not believe that I would be an asset on a battlefield but as a REMF. We should refrain from violence for the simple reason that it would give us the ammunition to use against this administration. If this administration were to use violence and abuse certain powers of government then maybe, just maybe, the American People will wake up.

One thing I do not want to see, is that when push comes to shove, that we squabble over fine points in politics, I personally do not care if the person next to me voted for Nader, nor if they are Libertarian, Anarchist, Communist, Socialist or even a Traditional Conservative, as long as we would stand shoulder to shoulder in solidarity, then we could WIN. Hopefully peacefully.