How did they coerce the Iraqi prisoners to humiliate themselves?

[mike_c]

I've been thinking about the images from Abu Ghraib all morning. Quite aside from the shocking nature of the photo's themselves-- and the shocking arrogance of whomever thought themselves so protected from prosecution that they took photographs for their scrap-books-- the photos only show the Iraqi's being humiliated. They don't show how they were coerced to participate. You don't just strip naked and humiliate yourself in front of a camera because some U.S. soldier suggests it in an offhand way. How were they coerced?

I didn't see any real evidence of physical brutality (unless it was concentrated above the neck and hooded). It doesn't seem likely that if the prison guards resorted to physical coercion-- and were confident enough to photograph it-- they'd care very much about preventing bruises and abrasions. But the fact remains that those prisoners must have been subjected to some rather extreme pressure in order to force them to humiliate themselves.

on edit: I want to make it clear that I'm asking a legitimate question, not contesting the fact that something terrible must have been done to these men. I think that's a HUGE part of this story. What were those men so frightened of?

[kiahzero]

1. Lots of ways

Weapons.

Off camera coercion.

Threats.

Dead "examples" of not cooperating.

Negative Reinforcement - "Do this, and we won't beat the shit out of you."

[7th_Sephiroth]

2. oh they did

probabvly tortures another inmate horribly right infront of them for hours until they submitted

[SheepyMcSheepster]

3. i imagine if you have a bag over your head

and you believe the person giving orders has weapons, you do what they say.

[sweettater]

4. Maybe a gun pointed at their heads

out of the camera lens range. I would imagine that would do wonders.

[tnlefty]

5. It seemed to me that some of them seemed bruised

feet, lower arms and hands, upper legs on some. Maybe I'm just lookin' at them differently.

[FreakinDJ]

6. Nothing like the sound of .....

a gun being cocked and held to your temple while a bag is over your head.

I also imagine some were taken away and reported to be dead already

Not to mention beatings, eminent and viable threat of death.

Makes one wonder just how well the average Freeper would hold up under similar circumstances

[sandnsea]

7. Whose idea was this?

Even if it was some sort of "interrogation" tactic, who thought this was a good idea??? What kind of sick, twisted mind comes up with this? Too sickening for words.

[MSgt213]

8. You kidding right. These people were prisoners. That meant they are

totally dependent upon their capture for everything. No food, no water, no sleep, no sunlight, living in your own shit, being threaten with dogs, no outside contact, no hope, no control. Let's not forget these people aren't americans or european they have their own problems with nudity and sex. Beside in the end what you saw in the pictures was the least of what was going on.

[mike_c]

10. but that's the point....

That's what really needs to be openly examined in this story. No, I'm not kidding. We can all speculate about the nature of those prisoner's circumstances: terrified, starved, beaten, sleep deprived, threatened out of camera range-- WHATEVER they feared was terrible. What would they choose self-humiliation to avoid? If death, why was the threat compelling enough to make them act as in the photographs? What is going on in that prison?

[MSgt213]

18. I think a better point is what made these soliders think they could get

away with what they were doing. There had to be superiors running all over that prison even if the top general was hardly there. Lack of training doesn't explain why they thought they could even get away with it.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

9. Don;t forget the picture of the beaten and probably dead prisoner..

He was probably the "example" of failing to cooperate.

[Ezlivin]

11. Corporate & Other Tactics

1) Your faith is being offshored;
2) Jacko's bed is empty and waiting;
3) Endless loop of one of GW's press conferences;
4) Interview with O'Reilly;
5) Life membership at FR;
6) BJ from Ann Coulter;
7) Q&A with Condi Rice;
8) Nonstop Rush Limbaugh;
9) Counting chads;
10) Wearing GW's flightsuit.

[mike_c]

12. I'm reading Hersh's article now....

Some of the answers are in there.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Have you read the Hersch article? There WAS physical abuse and torture

<snip>

Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.
<snip>
Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood.
<snip>

SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.


When he returned later, Wisdom testified:

I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I thought I should just get out of there. I didn’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick walking towards me, and he said, “Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.” I heard PFC England shout out, “He’s getting hard.”

http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/040510fa_fact

Sensory deprivation, beatings, another prisoner expiring DURING interrogation...anyone who fears for their life will do whatever you WANT them to do and tell you whatever you want to hear, which is why this parade of horribles didn't even LEAD to any intel that was useful.

[mike_c]

14. just finished it-- it's devastating....

Worse still, the length of time the military kept this "in house." Those military intelligence people are animals.

[Warren Stuart]

16. These were MP's not MI

Part timer's doing a full timer's job at that.

When I was in the Army they used to mock the National Guard and Reservists. It seemed that every time they had maneuvers they would loose a few to sheer incompetence. They weren't full time professional soldiers, and it showed.

There is a difference between MP's and MI, almost like the difference between regular police and the FBI. MI is much more professional, meaning that they aren't dumb enough to take pictures and post them on the internet.

[mike_c]

20. but it's my understanding that MI ran the interrogation block...

...where those MPs worked, and that MI encouraged the brutality. I didn't mean to imply that the soldiers who've been busted were MI themselves.

[kalian]

15. IMHO....

this has been ongoing since Iraq capitulated to "democracy and
freedom". They just changed dictators. IMHO, the petty dictator
gave his seat to his master: the US.
What I cannot believe is that many of these reservists were 1) not
trained in the Geneva Convention accords. This to my knowledge, is
MANDATORY to ALL military personnel during basic.
2) These same "guards" and MPs are CIVILIAN prison guards. Meaning,
that when they're not out there playing soldier, they're back here
in the US keeping an eye on inmates within our federal prison
system... Food for thought there.

Anyway you slice this "incident" bodes VERY badly for the US as a
whole. All this does is "reaffirm" the Arab's belief that the US,
along with its crony ally Israel, are really out to "get them"
on some unholy crusade.

We're fucked...and this is why we're going to see a draft next
year NO MATTER WHO IS ELECTED. This is why perpetual war is here
to stay....

Enjoy...

[Redleg]

17. Some of the detainees had been beaten and several killed from beatings.

If you saw that happen to another detainee you might be more willing to "humiliate" yourself, don't you think? Especially since the detainees' judgments were also clouded by lack of sleep.

[Classic_Liberal712]

19. how did saddam do the same thing? (n/t)

[jk121764]

21. You've got to be kidding

<on edit: I want to make it clear that I'm asking a legitimate question, not contesting the fact that something terrible must have been done to these men. I think that's a HUGE part of this story. What were those men so frightened of?>

The Iraqi POW's were blinded with hoods and standing there naked. All the rapist guards had to do is threaten them with castration and they would do anything.

[John_H]

22. Uhhhhhhhhhh....Could it be...uhhhhh...do this or we'll shoot you?

[Jim Warren]

23. The sound of a .45 ACP

being jacked into the chamber translates instantly into any language.