I just blasted a college friend...cheer me up...

[lapislzi]

As a proud graduate of SUNY Binghamton, I was surprised and infuriated to receive a freeper e-mail from a college chum. As I recall, we were taught to think critically at that school, and not to parrot everything we were told. I remember being roundly chastised by a professor for not seeking the source of some piece of information.

The e-mail, which I won't bother to post here, was the usual drivel about Theresa Heinz's corporate holdings (completely false), and how somehow by association, John Kerry is responsible for the outsourcing of jobs. It's not important what it said. It was all crap.

It ended with some claptrap about "if you can read English, thank a teacher," blah, blah, blah.

I don't usually take the bait. I'm usually stronger than that. But today I let her have it. I concluded my rebuttal by saying that I can speak and write English very well because of the fine public education I received paid for by my parents' tax dollars. And that if she wants to open a can of political worms with me, she'd better be damn sure of her facts, because I'm damn sure of mine.

I'm not a bridge burner. This woman will probably never speak to me again. I'm ashamed of myself, but I can't sit idly by and allow this stuff to go unchallenged.

Cheer me up, guys. Was I wrong to go after it? Is it worth a friendship? I can't surrender my principles any more. If I can change one mind, if I can make one single person THINK, then maybe it will be worth it.

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. I do that every now and than too...

And I feel bad for taking the bait afterwards as well...I usually just say about 40% of what I want to say and I choose very carefully and try to be polite. But there are times when I do lash out at something I find so stupid...

I try to avoid politics with people these days. People are just too fucking stupid for the most part and the entire conversation is spent debunking bullshit. Nothing ever gets talked about because I have to untangle their lies...it's a waste of time.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

2. I got one of these "making the rounds" RW freep type emails

from the parents of one of my best friends who have always been super nice to me. The dad is an Army vet and I suppose he just always assumed that since his son and I spent long careers together in the military (the son is still in) that we were both Repubs. This particular one REALLY pissed me off and pushed my hot button (I'd been on his "mailing list" for this stuff for some time but usually just deleted or deleted after reading) and I responded somewhat angrily to it, then sent a conciliatory email back almost immediately.

But I led off with "Please send me no more emails like this" and informed them of my opinion that GWB was a disgrace and quite possibly the worst president of the US ever. But basically we've agreed to lay off politics and are still friends.

It really depends I guess on how much you value your friendship. If you haven't been in touch with this gal for years I suspect you're not that close and it's not a big deal. People who mail stuff unsolicited like this are doing something kind of obnoxious anyway (I mean, a lot of these are REALLY HATE FILLED) and shouldn't take offense if they get the odd angry response.

[SharonAnn]

3. Well, I'm tired of being bullied by "friends" who send Right-Wing

emails with easily rebuttable information. For a while I countered their lies with true information and the references (links) to prove it. Also, I would send my reply to everybody on their email list so that all those people would also get the true information and somehow I thought that might embarass my "friend" who might then stop sending this kind of stuff. And, I though they might even look up some of this when they received it (using Snopes, kerry's Website, democrats.org, etc.).

After a while I got tired of being bullied like this. I didn't send them my stuff but they continued sending their stuff.

Eventually I decided they're hopeless so I responded a couple of times saying (progressively less courteously), "Please don't send me any more of these lies, it will cause me to lose respect for your ability to think."

Finally, I sent two responses saying "Do not send me any more of this stuff. If you do, I will "block" your email address so that I do not see any of your emails."

After two of those, they quit sending. But if they start again, they get one reminder and then I will block them.

I've decided to stand up and use my backbone. They're bullies and I'm calling them out!

[calimary]

52. You were far too kind.

What I do, if EVER I get emails like these (and I don't get anything like this anymore), here's what I do:

First - I figure that any true friends of mine who lean opposite me politically ALREADY KNOW BETTER, as friends, than to send me shit like this. They just don't. And, believe me, I have lots of friends who are rightward-leaning. We just don't talk politics. They know better than to bait me with pro-bush, anti-Clinton stuff. They just do, and they honor our friendship by not risking anything. Because they know they WILL get a tirade in return if they make that mistake.

Second - if any emails come my way, I take a little time, armed with lots of info, links, and other support-system stuff from people like those here at DU, and I respond. I write something up that responds point-by-point, WITH links and other documentation when needed. THEN, I send what I just wrote to the sender, and EVERYBODY on that sender's list or any CC's or anything. I go back one generation to the whoever sent the email to the person who sent it to me, and I copy what I wrote to EVERYBODY on that person's list. It's usually like that - where I get something that some knuckledragger sent around to 3 dozen people. They ALL get what I wrote, whether I know them or not.

And I usually try to insert a couple of comparisons between bush and Clinton - to remind people of how things were better, in general, any way you cut it, when Clinton was in the White House, than they've been since bush TOOK over. I never hesitate if there's a chance to compare them.

PERIOD.

I have done that all three times it's happened to me. The senders know better by now. It didn't take long to make such garbage stop. Either they don't like getting it back in the face (like typical bullies, they can dish it out, but sure can't take it) and take me off their email lists, OR maybe, JUST maybe, I got to one or two of them and opened somebody's eyes.

Try it. FIGHT BACK. FIGHT BACK WITH THE FACTS AND THE TRUTH. It's quite easy, really. All the facts and all the truth - are all on YOUR side. You could probably write something very nice and detailed without even consulting any background info - just from what you already know.

[Bluebear]

4. I can't feel true friendship with these types anymore...

So much has changed. I have stepped back and concluded that the more rabid of my right wing friends are so far removed from my view of the world that, without calling one side 'right' or 'wrong', I just recognize that the friendship can't run as deep as I would have liked it to because of our different views. If any of that makes sense. Don't feel "ashamed of yourself" for sticking up for your own views.

[Fovea]

8. I am in the same situation

I keep finding myself humming TMBG's "Your Racist Friend".

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

9. What does TMBG stand for? What's the band's name? eom

[Fovea]

10. Sorry

It stands for 'They Might Be Giants'
And I think the song is on an albub called Flood.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

11. Actually, I have that CD lying around somewhere, guess I never

listened to it quite enough to get familiar with that song! LOL

[Bluebear]

19. "Your racist friend"

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

23. Now I remember this. I like this song. Gotta dig up the CD now.

Thanks!

[SemperEadem]

50. friendships run their course

there is no law saying that you must remain friends until one of you dies.

Every relationship has a purpose and then an end. Some come quickly, others don't. If you've moved in 2 completely different directions, there is no common ground for you. They're more interested in bullying you, coersing you, intimidating you with unsubstantiated lies than in respecting that you have your opinion, they have theirs and it's enough to recognize that difference in order to enjoy the other facets of the relationship.

If it is an "all or nothing" intolerant attitude they have, then they're not looking to be your friend. They're looking to control you.

[Malva Zebrina]

5. Here is an e-mail I received from a once friend who is no longer a friend

CATSUP, PICKLES AND THE RADICAL LEFT

> by Paul R. Hollrah

>Maria Teresa Thiersten Simoes-Ferreira Heinz Kerry was born in Mozambique,

>the daughter of a Portuguese physician, and was educated in Switzerland and

>South Africa. Fluent in five languages, she was working as a United Nations

>interpreter in Geneva in the mid-60's when she met a handsome young

>American, H. John Heinz, III, who worked at a bank in Geneva. He told her

>his family was "in the food business."

>They were married in 1966 and returned to Pittsburgh where his family ran

>the giant H. J. Heinz food company. He was elected to the U.S. House of

>Representatives in 1971, and in 1976 he was elected to the first of three

>terms in the United States Senate.

>Senator H. John Heinz was a friend of mine -- not a close friend, not a

>golfing buddy, but a friend nonetheless. The last time I saw him alive was,

>oddly enough, in the men's restroom at the Maverick Steakhouse, a favorite

>nighttime eatery and watering hole for politicians and lobbyists in

>Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.



>The senator was standing at a wash basin, drying his hands, when I entered

>the room. When he turned and saw me, he rushed toward me, threw his arms

>around me, and said, "Paul, it's good to see you!" All I could do was

>mumble, "Senator, do you really think we should be seen hugging each other

>in a men's restroom?" He didn't think so, and neither did I, but we shared

>a good laugh over his impromptu display of affection.

>Several years later, in 1991, he was killed when his plane collided with a

>Sun Oil Company helicopter over a Philadelphia suburb -- the same

>helicopter that I often used to travel between Philadelphia and Washington,

>DC. The senator, his pilot and co-pilot, and both of Sun's helicopter

>pilots were killed. He was survived by his wife, Teresa, and their three

>young sons.



>Four years later, after inheriting Heinz's $500 million fortune, she

>married Senator John Forbes Kerry, the liberal junior senator from

>Massachusetts. She became a registered Democrat, and the process of her

>radicalization was set in motion.

>Heinz Kerry is not shy about telling people that she required Kerry to sign

>a pre- nuptial agreement before they were married. John Kerry may not have

>check-writing privileges on the Heinz catsup and pickle fortune, but he is

>certainly a willing and uncomplaining beneficiary of it. A lot of

>hard-earned money, made through many years of hawking catsup, pickles, and

>soup, has fallen into the hands of two people who despise successful

>entrepreneurship and who believe in the confiscatory redistribution of

>wealth.

>So how does Mrs. Heinz Kerry spend John Heinz's money? Just one example:

>According to the G2 Bulletin, an online intelligence newsletter of

>WorldNetDaily, in the years between 1995-2001, she gave more than $4

>million to an organization called the Tides Foundation. And what does the

>Tides Foundation do with John Heinz's money?

>It supports numerous anti-war groups, including Ramsey Clark's

>International Action Center. Clark has offered to defend Saddam Hussein

>when he's tried.

>It supports the Democratic Justice Fund, a joint venture of the Tides

>Foundation and billionaire hate-monger George Soros. The Democratic Justice

>Fund seeks to ease restrictions on Muslim immigration from "terrorist"

>states.

>It supports the Council for American-Islamic Relations, whose leaders are

>known to have close ties to the terrorist group, Hamas.

>They support the National Lawyers Guild, organized as a communist front

>during the Cold War era. One of their attorneys, Lynne Stewart, has been

>arrested for helping a client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, communicate with

>terror cells in Egypt. He is the convicted mastermind of the 1993 World

>Trade Center bombing.

>It supports Planned Parenthood, the National Abortion Rights Action League,

>and the Abortion Action Project.



>It supports the most violent of all homosexual action groups, ACT-UP.

>It supports the "Barrio Warriors," a radical Hispanic group whose primary

>goal is to return all of Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to

>Mexico.



>These are but a few of the radical groups that benefit, through the

>anonymity provided by the Tides Foundation, from the generosity of our

>would-be first lady -- the wealthy widow of Republican senator John Heinz

>and now the wife of the Democratic senator who aspires to be the 44th

>President of the United States.

>If voters will only try to imagine a woman such as Teresa Heinz Kerry, the

>fairy godmother of the radical left, laying her head on a pillow each night

>just inches from the President of the United States, hopefully they will

>decide that the only way these two will ever be allowed into the White

>House is with an engraved invitation in hand.

>As I recall that somewhat embarrassing chance meeting in the men's restroom

>at the Maverick Steakhouse in Harrisburg, instead of mumbling some inane

>nonsense about getting caught in a friendly embrace, I wish now that I'd

>had the good sense to whisper in his ear, "John! Go home!

>Get a lawyer! Change your will!"

>But, of course, we didn't know her then, did we?

>....."The men and women of the FBI have served admirably because they believe

>it is their duty to protect the citizens of the United States, to secure

>freedom, and to preserve justice for all Americans. I want to take this

>opportunity to thank them and their families for their sacrifices and

>for their service to America." - FBI Director - Robert Mueller (4-14-04)

Never Give Up, Never Give In, Never Forget, Never Again


Disgusting--never give up? Never give in? Never forget? Never again?

What does that mean? It means kill them all. Kill anyone. accuse anyone of being "anti-semitic" and then aim bombs, helicopters and kill them all

This administration has caused a complete upheaveal of all connections we once had with others., even though their politics were not the same, we somehow managed to love them and share with them

NO MORE

I have cut off my communications with these who were once my friends for many years--I will NOT accept anyone into my sphere of friendship who would support Bush's illegal invasions and occupation of Iraq and who would seek to smear and dirty a wonderful, independant and smart, sixty five year old woman, and seek to adore, instead, the dumbassed, less than intelligent, frump of a manufactured, plastic Stepford wife as the Laura, rictus smiling, mother of the sullen ones, who probably hate her, well at least they look like they hate them both, brats that they are.

[Warpy]

20. you might give it one shot

Ask if the sender really believes all this garbage. If the answer is yes, then you might offer the explanation above as to why you are no longer to be on that person's mailing list. Then block the address.

Life is too short to spend with haters.

If the answer was "No, but I thought it was interesting," you can proceed to deconstruct it line by line and explain why distortions and character assassination are so offensive and destructive to both reader and sender.

[BlueEyedSon]

39. What's the problem? That letter makes me like her even more!

:)

[SemperEadem]

51. that money is hers, lawfully and rightfully

and what she's done with her dead husband's estate is no different than what any RW rich widow might do with her deceased husband's estate.

Haters. Jealous cuz they don't have money.

"Blow it out your a$$" --Ludicris

[Martin Eden]

6. Next time

There may not be a next time with this person, but there will probably be another time with another friend.

If you value the friendship but refuse to swallow such garbage without a response (and I'm with you 100% on this), try persuasion.

First, realize that many good people have been influenced by the propaganda and the misinformation of the right, and the best thing we can do is make an effort to expose the deception. When we lash out at our friends who parrot the propaganda we are driving them further into the arms of Limbaugh and his ilk.

So, the first thing to do is calm your emotions and form your response from the perspective of helping your friend rather than battling her.

Evaluate the content of her communication, and find the most blatant factual error or flaw in reasoning. If this person is truly your friend and you have some understanding of her, she should at least be willing to consider what you say -- as long as it's not said in a way that makes her immediately defensive.

You may or may not be successful in your first attempt at persuasion, but if you are consistently calm, considerate, factual, and logical, your friend is more likely to continue the discussion and you will have a good chance to change her mind -- at least partially.

I don't know if this advice I've offered has cheered you up, but I hope it helps.

[lapislzi]

14. Thank you!

I did that. I appealed to her as a Binghamton graduate, and let her know how disappointed I was that she could pass on such material without thoroughly checking it out. I don't know if it will work, but it's the best I could do under the circumstances without calling her an idiot.

[sandnsea]

7. I've done it too

I usually ignore this garbage too, but I hit one back a couple of weeks ago on the defense budget garbage. Except it was one of those chain emails, so I hit 'REPLY ALL'. The guy who sent it to me knows me well, he was probably baiting me because he likes people to get stirred up. He's an old fart and my husband fights the political battles with him. But the BEST thing was the number of people who praised my response! People in my little town who I never would have guessed were Kerry supporters.

So you never know.

And I haven't lost a friend yet!

[OpSomBlood]

16. I always REPLY ALL

And reply to whatever strangers are in the forwarding chain, too.

Once in a while a family member or acquaintance will send me garbage like that. Just stick to facts and rebut it.

[troublemaker]

12. No friendship is worth it.

Fraternizing with these people is COLLABORATION.

[Warpy]

13. That happened to me

A coworker I enjoy tremendously forwarded a Freeper email about keeping gawd in the pledge of allegiance.

I gave her the website with the full story, told her the original pledge was written by a socialist, was a pledge to liberty and not a piece of cloth, and didn't have god in it until we needed to feel superior to all those godless communists in Russia in 1954. I ended with an admonition not to send me any more right wing horseshit unless she wanted a complete deconstruction of it.

Well, she hasn't mailed me any more Freeper crap, and after a very brief hiatus, we're speaking agian.

I think some people forward this crap just to stay in touch, not because they think it's earthshaking. I think my friend did.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

24. A postcard, or a "how's it going" personal, non cc'ed email

would be preferred.

[trof]

15. Used to "delete". Now I don't.

Tit for tat and HAMMER ON!
AND...REPLY ALL! Whenever possible.
To remain silent is to acquiesce.

[lapislzi]

18. Well, that's how I feel now

I can't keep my big mouth shut. And why should I? I'm the one telling the truth.

[montieg]

17. Sorry, but welcome to Bushworld.

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Ashcroft have proven without doubt that they are dividers, not uniters. The whole stinking mess of them--particularly the Wurlitzer and Grover Norquist-- have made these the most polarized times since Nixon/Agnew. Having lived through the Vietnam debacle (I graduated college in '69) in Texas, I see people getting the same clenched-teeth daily appearance. As the Wurlitzer pours out its vitriol and the haters sit around and make up this trash, most Americans absorb it by being exposed to it. Your friend is probably this type. I had the same experience with a high school classmate whose list I was on. It was not pretty. I, too, hit the reply all and man, did I get some hate. but I also got a lot of love, too.

I applaud your standing for your principles, and as one of the replies said, this person is probably not a friend, but more an acquaintance. Sarte says you can't stay friends 400 miles away. I say 4 years away, too. If she doesn't speak to you again, that is her decision, not yours. You can only steer the car you're driving. Keep the faith!

[lapislzi]

22. I like that!

...only steer the car you're driving.


Welcome to DU, montieg!:toast:

[Ladyhawk]

21. An elderly gentleman who describes * as too left-wing...

...wouldn't stop trying to "discuss" politics with me. I told him repeatedly, I didn't want to talk with him about politics. When he learned I was on disability, he remarked, "Well, you're probably stubborn enough to overcome that, but most people use it as a bed."

Excuse me? A bed? I get $790 a month and have to spend almost all of it on rent and bills and that's a bed?

He told me when I got "older" I would see the wisdom of his words. If I use that line of thinking, the only person who can hold an opinion is probably some 120-year-old woman on a mountain top in Nepal.

After he accidentally sent me several viruses via e-mail, I recommended he get an anti-virus program. (Luckily, my anti-virus program caught the virus threats before they did any damage to my computer.) Then the gullible old fool started sending virus alerts to everyone on his e-mail list concerning a virus that didn't exist. The "alert" recommended deleting a (luckily) unnecessary Windows file. Geez!

Finally, when he started sending me right-wing propaganda, I couldn't take it anymore. I e-mailed him back, telling him he was one of the major reasons I defected from the Republican Party and became a Democrat (true) and to please, leave me the hell alone!

I haven't heard from him since.

He is absolute proof that wisdom does not necessarily come with age.

Every time I think about him now, I shudder. If he ever returns to the chorus, I'm planning on keeping my distance.

[Ladyhawk]

38. I do have other Republican fundy friends,

but I wonder how long I can stomach their nauseating gullibility. I don't want to lose friends. I want to find a way to coexist, but it's getting harder and harder considering how scary the future looks with fundy Rethugs in charge.

I've tried to have meaningful discussions with one person, but he pretty much dismissed what I had to say.

Man. I really want to go to NZ with BeHereNow.

[AgadorSparticus]

25. i think if that person was really a friend, they would respect YOUR views

as well. it works both ways. i've sent out some anti bush letters lately. i don't get the RW nonsense anymore.

[Postman]

26. Words of wisdom from Paul Krugman -

Lessons in Civility
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: October 10, 2003






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t's the season of the angry liberal. Books like Al Franken's "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them," Joe Conason's "Big Lies" and Molly Ivins's "Bushwhacked" have become best sellers. (Yes, I've got one out there, too.) But conservatives are distressed because those liberals are so angry and rude. O.K., they admit, they themselves were a bit rude during the Clinton years — that seven-year, $70 million investigation of a tiny money-losing land deal, all that fuss about the president's private life — but they're sorry, and now it's time for everyone to be civil.

Indeed, angry liberals can take some lessons in civility from today's right.

Consider, for example, Fox News's genteel response to Christiane Amanpour, the CNN correspondent. Ms. Amanpour recently expressed some regret over CNN's prewar reporting: "Perhaps, to a certain extent, my station was intimidated by the administration and its foot soldiers at Fox News." A Fox spokeswoman replied, "It's better to be viewed as a foot soldier for Bush than as a spokeswoman for Al Qaeda."

And liberal pundits who may be tempted to cast personal aspersions can take lessons in courtesy from conservatives like Charles Krauthammer, who last December reminded TV viewers of his previous career as a psychiatrist, then said of Al Gore, "He could use a little help."

What's really important, of course, is that political figures stick to the issues, like the Bush adviser who told The New York Times that the problem with Senator John Kerry is that "he looks French."

Some say that the right, having engaged in name-calling and smear tactics when Bill Clinton was president, now wants to change the rules so such behavior is no longer allowed. In fact, the right is still calling names and smearing; it wants to prohibit rude behavior only by liberals.

But there's more going on than a simple attempt to impose a double standard. All this fuss about the rudeness of the Bush administration's critics is an attempt to preclude serious discussion of that administration's policies. For there is no way to be both honest and polite about what has happened in these past three years.

On the fiscal front, this administration has used deceptive accounting to ram through repeated long-run tax cuts in the face of mounting deficits. And it continues to push for more tax cuts, when even the most sober observers now talk starkly about the risk to our solvency. It's impolite to say that George W. Bush is the most fiscally irresponsible president in American history, but it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise.

On the foreign policy front, this administration hyped the threat from Iraq, ignoring warnings from military professionals that a prolonged postwar occupation would tie down much of our Army and undermine our military readiness. (Joseph Galloway, co-author of "We Were Soldiers Once . . . and Young," says that "we have perhaps the finest Army in history," but that "Donald H. Rumsfeld and his civilian aides have done just about everything they could to destroy that Army.") It's impolite to say that Mr. Bush has damaged our national security with his military adventurism, but it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Still, some would say that criticism should focus only on Mr. Bush's policies, not on his person. But no administration in memory has made paeans to the president's character — his "honor and integrity" — so central to its political strategy. Nor has any previous administration been so determined to portray the president as a hero, going so far as to pose him in line with the heads on Mount Rushmore, or arrange that landing on the aircraft carrier. Surely, then, Mr. Bush's critics have the right to point out that the life story of the man inside the flight suit isn't particularly heroic — that he has never taken a risk or made a sacrifice for the sake of his country, and that his business career is a story of murky deals and insider privilege.

In the months after 9/11, a shocked nation wanted to believe the best of its leader, and Mr. Bush was treated with reverence. But he abused the trust placed in him, pushing a partisan agenda that has left the nation weakened and divided. Yes, I know that's a rude thing to say. But it's also the truth.

[seabeyond]

27. a mama that has two kids my kids age

adn they have been hanging together since baby.........yup, i went off around christmas. oh lordy i was mad telling her to quick keeping head in sand think and listen and figure out what is going on in this world and gave her tons of examples. yup........

i have had a couple calls and that is it, thinking maybe after election we will hang together again

my other "fundie" friends, all i have living in panhandle of texas, i try to keep mouth shut, just cant.

told one the other nite, you know how stupid bush thinks you are, told her about the cut defense ad and cheney being the one that set it up being sec of def............that is how stupid they think you are, and if you buy it and dont check it out, you are that stupid.

so i am not messing even a little.

they hang or they dont, but not keeping mouth shut or doing stupid.

[Arugula Latte]

28. We're at war

A culture war, that is. I think a lot of us on the side of reason, enlightenment and intelligence have had enough of right-wing morons. Time to let them have it. Enough is enough.

They've been pissing in our water for too many years now. They need to get some of their own medicine.

[Christ was Socialist]

29. I cut links with old friends

that i went through a lot with, they converted. After seeing what happened in nazi germany, i can't be friends with someone who is so far right, i have no problem with the ole' school repubs, the small business idelaists, it's this neo-con fascist shit that would make me denounce my own children if they were to ever follow it.

[Carolab]

30. Cheer you up?

I'd like to congratulate you! I have been checking out all associates, family, friends and even my hairdresser as to their political knowledge and preference. The ONLY way we are going to change the direction is to get the truth out, since these people are obviously believing the spin and not seeking the truth for themselves. Just tell these people you are letting them know because the media won't and that you are telling them because you care about them and the future of this country. Then direct them to alternative news sources where they can find out more. We need to EDUCATE and ENLIGHTEN, not just blast these people.

[Ladyhawk]

37. I have tried this with people I thought would listen.

I am ignored because of my atheism and severe Depression. It makes everything I say suspect.

[Norquist Nemesis]

31. You shouldn't feel ashamed to stand up for your opinion

She sent the email to you in an effort to influence your opinion and she has that right. That you would have an opinion and show her how her information is incorrect is not only your right, but your duty as her friend. If she chooses not to listen to the facts you presented and to end your friendship because you did this, she wasn't a very good friend to begin with.

[Speck Tater]

32. Part of the reason we're in this mess...

... is that for too long reasonable people have just kept their mouths shut and not stood up to the right-wing morons. As a result they began to believe that they were in the majority and started becoming increasingly bold about pushing their agenda. After all, the more they push the fewer objections they hear from the people around them, so they conclude that all the people around them must agree.

The most important thing people like this need to be told is that everybody in American DOES NOT agree with them. They are conformist joiners who want to fit in with what they think is the majority view, and as long as we continue to give them a pass when they spout their BS the more we give them the false impression that we, and everyone else, agrees with them, and that their view is the normal view.

This rabid minority has so much power because the real majority isn't speaking up. Never let this kind of thing go without a strong response. To do so is to facilitate the right-wing agenda by contributing to their delusion that everybody agrees with them.

[Carolab]

33. It's a nearly impossible task but don't give up

I hate to say this...but alright: I can just SPOT a Bushie from a mile off. I'm sorry but they are rigid, judgmental, overly "patriotic" (flag-wavers), very publicly practicing Christians (to the point of pushing religion) and (sorry) but uninformed/stupid. I don't think some of them have the capacity to "get it", believe us, or change. STILL, we must not stop trying. Our future depends on it.

[BattyDem]

34. I've told off a few friends lately ...

and frankly, I've gotten to the point where I don't care if they ever speak to me again. Of course, I don't want to lose old friends ... it hurts. But I'm tired of feeling like I always have to keep my mouth shut because they're so close-minded and thin-skinned that they can't handle negative talk about Bush*!

I thought it was because they couldn't handle the truth, but I've come to realize that they don't even care what the truth is! They've made up their minds and they have no intention of letting a little thing like the facts get in the way of their beliefs. What's worse is the way they form those beliefs ... they hear it on television or read it in the paper and that's it. There's no changing their minds. Even if the information is ridiculous or contradictory, it doesn't matter - they don't question it and they make absolutely no effort to find out if it's true. I can present them with tons of evidence to the contrary: I can site sources, I can provide links, I can give them detailed information and explanations ... but it doesn't matter. The most frustrating part about it is that they can't even defend their position using their own words or ideas ... they just repeat the RW talking points over and over. There's no independent thought at all. These were once intelligent people. WTF happened?

One person asked me where I got all my info. I knew she would never believe "alternative" media links, so I provided links to mainstream newspapers and news organizations from all over the world - Canada, England, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Russia, Scotland, France, Germany, South America, etc.

Do you know what she said to me? "Oh how can you believe the news in those places? They're not reliable!"

So I said, "Do you honestly believe that all those countries are lying, even though they're all telling the same story and our press is telling a different one? What possible motive could they have? Do you think there's a vast media conspiracy against the US? Great Britain supported us ... why would they lie about us?"

Of course, she had no answer ... she just mumbled something like, "You can't trust those people." The fact that most of "those people" are strong US allies didn't seem to matter to her. :eyes:

What I'm trying to say is this:
Don't feel guilty about telling someone off. I know it hurts, but if a person is truly a good friend, they'll respect you and your opinions, even when you disagree. Real friends don't try to ram their beliefs down your throat and then get pissed off when you ask them to listen to your point of view and understand where you're coming from. If a person sends you RW propaganda day after the day, but gets nasty the moment you send them something that contradicts it, don't even bother trying to "make up" with them. It's not worth the aggravation. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of dealing with the arrogance and stupidity of people. A friend once told me that "life's too short to waste on stupid people." He was right. :)

You're right about one thing ... if you can change one mind, if you can make one single person THINK, then it is worth it. Someday, the sheeple we used to call our friends will finally wake up ... and maybe they'll realize that we were only trying to "wake them up" because we cared. Hang in there. :hug:

[seabeyond]

35. i was talking to a fundie friend the other nite

hitting the medal issue, the ad issue that was cheney supporting eliminating the weapons. i have gone into the destruction of the public school. we both have kids in a private fundie school. i have gone thru so much with her. and the other day she says to me

you always have the information way before it gets on the news.

yup i say

so at least she is listening and then the stuff gets out and is creating an enviroment where she is trusting and believing what i say. she was awfully skeptical.

if you remember some of the things you told her that later came out, remind her

[BattyDem]

48. I've been doing that

I've been subtle about it, but when something that I told her finally shows up in the news, I let her know. I'll usually say something like, "Did you see that story about ______? I remember reading about it in the European papers a few months ago ... didn't I mention it to you? No? Oh, I guess it was someone else. Anyway, the foreign press was all over this months ago. I've learned a lot from them. You really should check out the foreign newspapers ... you'd be surprised how accurate they are." :evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

36. when bush said creating amendment against gay marriage

i went to sons school and just had it. had just got done reading tons on dominion. lol lol. went after the teacher about her teaching kids bush was an honest man. that he wasnt honest, he was a liar, adn i didnt have to create him into something he wasnt to love him. that is what jesus would do, wink.

it was that time i started saying out loud to everyone, in the having discrimination in our constitution, that i would not shut up anymore. no one was going to tell me i was unpatriotic, nonchristian, or a terrorist. further, i was more patriotic and christian by speaking up

it has been a good thing

[coda]

40. You need to wait a day

and then reread before you send. You need to put a little more thought into your response, even though it's obvious she didn't. She may have merely fowarded something along w/o any thought.


If you're not a bridge burner as you claim, then don't.

.
.

Was I wrong to go after it? Is it worth a friendship? I can't surrender my principles any more. If I can change one mind, if I can make one single person THINK, then maybe it will be worth it.


^
I don't know if you were wrong, but you said you were "infuriated" and you "blasted" her. It could very well be that she didn't mean to evoke such a response.

^
No, it isn't worth a friendship.

^
You wouldn't necessarily be "surrendering your principles" by spending a little more time for a response and maybe taking a different tack.

^
It will most certainly be worth it if you change her mind and I guess only you know if the "shock" of your reply would work better than taking a more modest, or at least a more thoughtful approach. If you burn the bridge, you won't have another shot before Nov 2. You may also lose something very important by misreading her intent.


/

I'm not telling you what to do lapislzi. All this falls under the heading of: IMHO. 'kay? :hi:

The thing is, I get several of these from people I love and I'm just not going to burn our bridge. Why? Because I feel that I would be surrendering a principle by doing so.

That principle?

That principle is that I'm not going to let some RW piece of shit that sits around layering a hundred lies around a kernal of truth put a wedge between me and people I love and/or care about.

What I know is, is that these e-mails are written in a fashion to provoke emotion, not reason, so as to outrage and infuriate both the right and the left. They are meant to divide and they do a very good job.

You're probably like me, in that what pisses you off the most is not so much the e-mail itself, but that somebody you like or respect would actually buy such crap.


Listen, for the most part, people forward these things without much thought. They really aren't the ones driving this, it's the hatemongers that create and distribute it that deserve the wrath. I know that MOST people that have sent them to me didn't intend it as a slap at me. Out of the last dozen I've received, I've sent 11 back with the snopes page and addy.

To some of these, I've simply replied, "If the Clintons, Kerry, etc are so bad and such liars, why are 9 out of ten of these e-mails about them, out and out lies? Isn't the truth good enough?"

That's it. That's all I send(to most). I also tell them to keep on sending all that they get. They use to piss me off too. Not anymore.


It may well be, in the coming months, that I'll adjust my "tack" in reponding too. :-)

[Eurobabe]

41. take heart i did it too last year...

i ended a 5 yr. friendship with a women who bragged to me about making the max contribution $2000 to Bu$hCo's re-selection campaign. I knew she was a repube, but she had voted for Gore in 2000, so that redeemed her in my eyes.

The rude awakening came when she said she had lunch with KKKarl Rove's gang of thieves--she is 'supposedly' a big donor, and she really 'liked' Bu$h. I severed the ties and didn't look back. Anyone who can in their right mind support or defend this administration borders on sheer lunacy. For me it is not so much supporting Republicans, but the ones that support 43.

I feel pretty damn good for ending my association, don't miss that relationship a bit.

[LeahMira]

42. Dozens of these e-mail chains are going around of late.

Your friend probably passed her e-mail along without too much thought.

Everyone gets fed up with these intrusive and silly chain e-mails, and certainly what a FReeper would respond to a chain e-mail from a liberal would probably go far beyond whatever you wrote in terms of lacks of civility and rational discourse.

You can always write back and claim that you had had a long day, and then state the facts, along with some links to supporting material. Remind your friend of the fine education you both received and let her know that you're pretty sure she sent it to you as an example of an outrageous lie rather than something you should take seriously.

If this person is a friend, maybe you shouldn't assume the worst of her just yet.

[lapislzi]

43. UPDATE--she actually replied

and thanked me for my views, although she said she wouldn't send me anything political in the future. In her reply, she said "I want what we all want: made in the U.S.A. products and freedom from world terror."

Now, I could deconstruct both of those statements, based as they are on false assumptions, but I don't have the patience.

At least I have not lost a friend, and maybe, just maybe, I made someone think.

Not bad for a day's work.

[9215]

44. Maybe she never had anyone critique her claims

before.

From the tone of her reply it sounds like she might be thinking about what you said.

[coda]

46. Good for you

And if she really does start thinking, by the time Novemeber rolls around she should have figured out that if she really wants this:

"I want what we all want: made in the U.S.A. products and freedom from world terror."

there is no way she can support Bush/Cheney*

[BattyDem]

49. That's great news!

Like I said in my previous post, true friends respect your opinions even when you disagree ... so it looks like you've got a true friend. :)

[Skittles]

54. you need to educate here some more

she's been brainwashed by the corporate media.

[devinsgram]

45. It reminds me of an old saying,

"The truth hurts", but please keep it coming. That's the only way we will ever get this great country of ours back.

[NuttyFluffers]

47. You were right, she was wrong

giving loaded (and few things get more loaded than politics and religion) messages to people is not a nice thing to do, unless you know where you both stand on issues.

if you guys are cool to politics as a subject, and have learned to de-escalate arguments before, then by all means let her have it for not explaining herself at the end of the forwarded e-mail. if she saw it as a joke, wanted to make a point, whatever, she would have pointed that out and it sounds like she didn't.

if she wanted to pass off junk information at you with no context, you have not only a right, but a moral duty to call her on it. do you believe your friend has the prerogative to pass off baseless lies as facts and expect trust and nicey-nicey thereafter? i don't and neither should you.

you have nothing to apologize for. if she can't handle it, oh well, you walked in tandem for a pace, perhaps another time another place you'll come back together.

[Skittles]

53. your friend had it coming, lapislizi

I had to do the same with a coworker of mine (a very intelligent person too). Perhaps they will think twice before they peddle such trash again.