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Christians use to oppose big business. Contradictions in conservatism

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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:18 AM
Original message
Christians use to oppose big business. Contradictions in conservatism
Edited on Sun May-02-04 12:27 AM by Christ was Socialist
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/contradictions_inherent_in_ameri.htm

Absolutely amazing article. The author drew a conclusion that no matter what abortion is here to stay, thanks to the fact it is a wedge issue. IMO It's impossible to be a true Christian and not a socialist. If anything the early followers were communists, before the term was created.

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. Acts 4:32-35


. . .Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought saying, What shall we eat? Or, What shall we drink? Or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Matthew 6:28-34

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Matthew 19:20-22


But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Luke 12:31-33










http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/contradictions_inherent_in_ameri.htm
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xray s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. So...you gonna tell the Vatican only communists can take communion?
:)
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Tina H Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I am not sure that this passage . . .
is supposed to be teleological, rather than historical, in nature -- at least as categorical theological imperatives are concerned.

Then agian, I am no Protestant, so I put little credence in my own biblical interpretations.
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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. yep
http://catholicworker.org

I should write my local archbishop, as a matter of fact that's a good idea.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Duly bookmarked.
Thanks pal, this should blow some minds in Colorado...
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. Amen bro!
We need more of this in our Churches!
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. words to live by
Edited on Sun May-02-04 12:41 AM by rchsod
some thoughts are universal
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. Contradictions in Conservatism:

claim: capitalism increases competition, and competition drives prices down and increases quality and choice.

reality: capitalism encourages mergers and takeovers, and thus monoplies. monopolies result in the the opposite of competition.

claim: enriching the corporations will cause them to invest, which is good for everyone; "trickle down economics"

reality: for the past 30 years, wealth has been trickling up rather then down.

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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. capitalism is fine.....as long as..

it's regulated and isn't the entire focus of a civilization...it should be a means to an end, and not THE end alone.
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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. It is a precursor to communism
as marx had in mind. You need a capitalist economy then socialism then onto communism, it can't be forced.
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The Diggers and the Levellers...
..from the time of the English Civil War, religous radicals who where sort of a precursor to communism, but basing their beliefs on scripture

. "...all things held in common..."
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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. sure don't here that anymore, brings to mind a quote
Mark Twain
"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian."

Mark Twain, "Reflections on Religion"
"There was no place in the land where the seeker could not find some small budding sign of pity for the slave. No place in all the land but one-- the pulpit. It yielded last; it always does. It fought a strong and stubborn fight, and then did what it always does, joined the procession-- at the tail end. Slavery fell. The slavery texts -in the Bible remained; the practice changed; that was all."

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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
8. "Jesus was the first socialist outlaw," quoth Woody Guthrie.
Works for me.
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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. How true
so true its my sn lol.
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Xtians are going to use scripture to justify whoever pays the bills.
...I think there was a good scene in Matewan about the fundy preacher in the mining town preaching against the union...not too unusual, actually, when you look at history.

But then, during the Pittston Coal strike (back in the 80s?) some of the preachers where miners, too (those little storefront pentacostal churches) and used the pulpit to use scripture to justify the strikers struggle.

(and that old union song, Which Side Are You On, took the music from an old baptist hymm, so theres another interesting connection..)

So, it can cut both ways, I guess....
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
15. Interesting thread, but here is something to think about...
Edited on Mon May-03-04 04:11 AM by markomalley
Dorothy Day espoused the concept of voluntary poverty and voluntary communal living, as opposed to state-mandated socialism. That is what makes her way of living such a challenge. You have to actually walk the talk--rather than forcing others to do so. She was not a limousine liberal, unlike so many of the so-called progressives who are leading the movement today.

BTW, though, I am glad that I was able to help you out with a ref to that http://www.catholicworker.org web site.


Aims and means of the Catholic Worker:

The Aims and Means of the Catholic Worker
Reprinted from The Catholic Worker newspaper, May 2002
The aim of the Catholic Worker movement is to live in accordance with the jusice and charity of Jesus Christ. Our sources are the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures as handed down in the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, with our inspiration coming from the lives of the saints, "men and women outstanding in holiness, living witnesses to Your unchanging love." (Eucharistic Prayer)

This aim requires us to begin living in a different way. We recall the words of our founders, Dorothy Day who said, "God meant things to be much easier than we have made them," and Peter Maurin who wanted to build a society "where it is easier for people to be good."


* * *
When we examine our society, which is generally called capitalist (because of its methods of producing and controlling wealth) and is bourgeois (because of prevailing concern for acquisition and material interests, and its emphasis on respectability and mediocrity), we find it far from God's justice.

--In economics, private and state capitalism bring about an unjust distribution of wealth, for the profit motive guides decisions. Those in power live off the sweat of others' brows, while those without power are robbed of a just return for their work. Usury (the charging of interest above administrative costs) is a major contributor to the wrongdoing intrinsic to this system. We note, especially, how the world debt crisis leads poor countries into greater deprivation and a dependency from which there is no foreseeable escape. Here at home, the number of hungry and homeless and unemployed people rises in the midst of increasing affluence.

--In labor, human need is no longer the reason for human work. Instead, the unbridled expansion of technology, necessary to capitalism and viewed as "progress," holds sway. Jobs are concentrated in productivity and administration for a "high-tech," war-related, consumer society of disposable goods, so that laborers are trapped in work that does not contribute to human welfare. Furthermore, as jobs become more specialized, many people are excluded from meaningful work or are alienated from the products of their labor. Even in farming, agribusiness has replaced agriculture, and, in all areas, moral restraints are run over roughshod, and a disregard for the laws of nature now threatens the very planet.

--In politics, the state functions to control and regulate life. Its power has burgeoned hand in hand with growth in technology, so that military, scientific and corporate interests get the highest priority when concrete political policies are formulated. Because of the sheer size of institutions, we tend towards government by bureaucracy--that is, government by nobody. Bureaucracy, in all areas of life, is not only impersonal, but also makes accountability, and, therefore, an effective political forum for redressing grievances, next to impossible.

--In morals, relations between people are corrupted by distorted images of the human person. Class, race and sex often determine personal worth and position within society, leading to structures that foster oppression. Capitalism further divides society by pitting owners against workers in perpetual conflict over wealth and its control. Those who do not "produce" are abandoned, and left, at best, to be "processed" through institutions. Spiritual destitution is rampant, manifested in isolation, madness, promiscuity and violence.

--The arms race stands asa clear sign of the direction and spirit of our age. It has extended the domain of destruction and the fear of annihilation, and denies the basic right to life. There is a direct connection between the arms race and destitution. "The arms race is an utterly treacherous trap, and one which injures the poor to an intolerable degree." (Vatican II)


* * *
In contrast to what we see around us, as well as within ourselves, stands St. Thomas Aquinas' doctrine of the Common Good, a vision of a society where the good of each member is bound to the good of the whole in the service of God.

To this end, we advocate:

--Personalism, a philosophy which regards the freedom and dignity of each person as the basis, focus and goal of all metaphysics and morals. In following such wisdom, we move away from a self-centered individualism toward the good of the other. This is to be done by taking personal responsibility for changing conditions, rather than looking to the state or other institutions to provide impersonal "charity." We pray for a Church renewed by this philosophy and for a time when all those who feel excluded from participation are welcomed with love, drawn by the gentle personalism Peter Maurin taught.

--A decentralized society, in contrast to the present bigness of government, industry, education, health care and agriculture. We encourage efforts such as family farms, rural and urban land trusts, worker ownership and management of small factories, homesteading projects, food, housing and other cooperatives--any effort in which money can once more become merely a medium of exchange, and human beings are no longer commodities.

--A "green revolution," so that it is possible to rediscover the proper meaning of our labor and/or true bonds with the land; a distributist communitarianism, self-sufficient through farming, crafting and appropriate technology; a radically new society where people will rely on the fruits of their own toil and labor; associations of mutuality, and a sense of fairness to resolve conflicts.


* * *
We believe this needed personal and social transformation should be pursued by the means Jesus revealed in His sacrificial love. With Christ as our Exemplar, by prayer and communion with His Body and Blood, we strive for practices of

--Nonviolence. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God." (Matt. 5: 9) Only through nonviolent action can a personalist revolution come about, one in which one evil will not be replaced simply by another. Thus, we oppose the deliberate taking of human life for any reason, and see every oppression as blasphemy. Jesus taught us to take suffering upon ourselves rather than inflict it upon others, and He calls us to fight against violence with the spiritual weapons of prayer, fasting and noncooperation with evil. Refusal to pay taxes for war, to register for conscription, to comply with any unjust legislation; participation in nonviolent strikes and boycotts, protests or vigils; withdrawal of support for dominant systems, corporate funding or usurious practices are all excellent means to establish peace.

--The works of mercy (as found in Matt. 25:31-46) are at the heart of the Gospel and they are clear mandates for our response to "the least of our brothers and sisters." Houses of hospitality are centers for learning to do the acts of love, so that the poor can receive what is, in justice, theirs, the second coat in our closet, the spare room in our home, a place at our table. Anything beyond what we immediately need belongs to those who go without.

--Manual labor, in a society that rejects it as undignified and inferior. "Besides inducing cooperation, besides overcoming barriers and establishing the spirit of sister and brotherhood (besides just getting things done), manual labor enables us to use our bodies as well as our hands, our minds." (Dorothy Day) The Benedictine motto Ora et Labora reminds us that the work of human hands is a gift for the edification of the world and the glory of God.

--Voluntary poverty. "The mystery of poverty is that by sharing in it, making ourselves poor in giving to others, we increase our knowledge and belief in love." (Dorothy Day) By embracing voluntary poverty, that is, by casting our lot freely with those whose impoverishment is not a choice, we would ask for the grace to abandon ourselves to the love of God. It would put us on the path to incarnate the Church's "preferential option for the poor."


* * *
We must be prepared to accept seeming failure with these aims, for sacrifice and suffering are part of the Christian life. Success, as the world determines it, is not the final criterion for judgments. The most important thing is the love of Jesus Christ and how to live His truth.


http://www.catholicworker.org/aimsandmeanstext.cfm?Number=5

A quote from Dorothy Day (from House of Hospitality:

"Socialism is the state doing things for people instead of people doing things for each other. It is opposed to Communism, the ideal Communism of the Church which means people doing things for each other--the corporal works of mercy.

"Socialism never implies a mode of living. Socialists believe the state will force people to be good. . . . Norman Thomas criticized MacDonald for not having a philosophy of labor. But Socialism has no philosophy of labor. Socialism is gradualism. Gradually the state will take over everything....

"But Socialism is founded on the doctrines of Karl Marx and Engels, just as Communism is. Communism does not pretend to be Communism now. They are aiming towards Communism, they say, when the state shall have 'withered away,' to use their own phrase. Right now it is Socialism in Russia. It is the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. It is the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. A dictatorship of a class instead of a dictatorship of an individual.

"Socialism is diametrically opposed to Catholicism because it is essentially materialist in aims and leaves entirely out of accounting our first beginning and our last end, which is God.

"The problems of the day are fundamentally ethical problems. The problem which faces us is not of fighting Communists, of which so many young priests speak so enthusiastically and so ignorantly, but of changing the hearts and souls of men.
http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/daytext.cfm?TextID=439


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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. Look at how corrupt Evangelical Conservatives are!
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. A statement of the obvious...
...although I would modify it slightly. Look at how corrupt some are and gullible others are.
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