What scares me most about the Iraq torture.

[coloradodem2005]

In some ways this is like a frat hazing. I am not saying it to say that this is okay. Quite the opposite. When Columbine happened, a lot of what it was attributed to was that these kids were ridiculed. Now that is no excuse for killing. What I am trying to say is that a lot of it stemms from people not coming down hard on people when they ridicule others. Rumsfeld et. al. did not go hard on the officers that did this months ago. In school, people think that it is okay to ridicule others. In college fraternities it is the same thing. I am at heart a live and let live guy, but I find it irritating that we tolerate people ridiculing others. In my mind, there either needs to be a no tolerance policy with this kind of shit or a low tolerance one. The soldiers in Iraq may think it is a joke and it's okay, but it is not okay, it is not a joke, and it has got to stop. Enforcing a no-tolerance policy would be a good place to start.

[stellanoir]

1. I'm sick and tired of hearing these abuses dismissively

regarded as merely humiliating or akin to hazing.

Rape and sodomizing detainees which the Hersh article says are 60% innocent civilians exceed those descriptions by a long and irrevocable shot.

We're done there and in the inherently wise words of Riverbend, we should "Just go."

[loyalsister]

13. Dismissive?

That is only if you consider hazing and humiliation to be minor.
Some people don't. It's all a matter of context.

What is beyond horrifying in civilian life is probably pretty minor in a prison setting.
Kind of like how what is a teenager's worst nightmare is not something that would horrify adults.

[Proud_Lefty]

2. Soldiers take orders from their superiors

Personally I despise violence and every part of it, but we're talking about people taking orders from their superiors "or else". What would happen to any of these soldiers if they disobeyed their superiors? Their sick-minded, violent loving superiors? And their superiors go to the top - DICK CHENEY! I always had a nagging thought that the reporter who suddenly died of a strange death during the initial fighting was actually someone ready to expose something.

Our administration contains the most evil and corrupt people ever in power. And our troops belong to them. They are taught to obey and not ask questions, even if it goes against their beliefs and morales. This torture sickens me beyond belief, and it sickens me more that people keep looking in the wrong direction towards the "wrong doers".

[seabeyond]

3. this is what i am saying, grin

yes to what you say. and since 9/11 instead of uniting and healing we divided more in anger and hate and fear and it was led and fed by the bush administration and the right wing thugs yelling and screaming hate and intolerance.

absolutely to what you say about schools and how it begins at such a young age. i have the most sensitive third grader,. oh so kind, and people want me to toughen him up (make him mean) to handle the other boys and i have an agressive dont put up with shit kindergartner who i am sensitizing to his enviroment and people, directing torwards softer, lol. i absolutely see this.

now how many of us adults are willing to see our part i ask. i can see in many different areas how we decide another is doing wrong, and it may be wrong, yet in this we create them into monster and our validation adn justification for hate to this person cause of our dislike of a behavior. our own judgements and agenda. then, we teach our children this hate and we do it in pride

[Skittles]

4. IF I HEAR "FRAT HAZING" ONE MORE F***ING TIME

THE IDIOTS WHO PARTICIPATE IN FRAT HAZING - BOTH SIDES - ARE FREELY PARTICIPATING. THERE IS NO FREE WILL ON THE PART OF THESE PRISIONERS. UNDERSTAND ??????????????????????????????????????????

[coloradodem2005]

8. What I am saying...

...is that to the soldiers it is like frat hazing. The shit that goes on is wrong. Both in frats and not. What I am talking about has to do with the fact that we don't make it painfully clear that you cannot ridicule, physically intimidate or physically hurt others. I don't care whether both sides in a frat are freely participating or not. UNDERSTAND?????????????????

[Skittles]

9. this is something we shouldn't need to teach

but what can you say when millions of people tune into "reality" shows to watch people behaving in appalling ways and humiliating themselves? People have lost their sense of empathy.

[coloradodem2005]

11. My problem...

...This is probably something we have to teach. The problem is, when you are a kid, you generally don't have any real concept of respect, for teachers or for each other. They also try to test their boundaries. As long as they can get away with it, they will continue to push their luck even more. This is my opinion.

I would definitely agree with you about reality tv and watching people behave in appalling ways.

[Mattforclark]

5. Columbine

Columbine had little to do with the kids being ridiculed. Eric Harris was just a psychopath.

FYI

http://slate.msn.com/id/2099203

[HooptieWagon]

6. Rape and Murder are far beyond "hazing".

Sen Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.)- "We don't need to leave here thinking that we've seen the worst." "There's more to come." And, most disturbing - "...we're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience - we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges." And that's from a repug...

And, I think our suspicions will end up being confirmed that this is not an isolated incident - what about the abuses in other Iraqi prisons, Afgani prisons, and Gitmo? Neocons believe the ends justify the means in furthering their agenda - so who's next? Blacks? Gays? Liberals? Moderates? Non-believers of the christian-right?

As Germany had to abolish Naziism to atone for their mis-deeds , it is up to us to abolish the neocons. Not only have their policies been proven false and mistaken, but their beliefs have proven to be sociopathic and ammoral.

[seabeyond]

7. i feel colorado was going beyond

the obvious here. seeing the core of the issue. i dont feel it was diminishing this experience but exploring.

and columbine being dismissed with just psychopath really takes the responsibility away of seeing why and how it happened. i personally would rather listen look and learn, so we can get beyond those events also.

take responsibility for what we are all creating

[coloradodem2005]

10. Thank you.

That is exactly what I am trying to do. Get to the root of all this. I think that what has gone on in Iraq is despicable and worse than a lot of things that I am comparing it to. But the root of it is that authority figures look the other way when shit goes on. happened with CU with the sex scandals. And most to all of these women were not willing participants. THey were raped. Threatened. My point has been regardless of the severity of the offense that most of what happens happens because it is tolerated. The people who should come down like a ton of bricks on the offenders don't.


As for Columbine, Harris and Kliebold may have been psychopaths. What they did was deplorable and they deserve a special place in hell for their actions. Truth be told, I don't totally understand why they did what they did. They may have been crazy, they may have been angry. THey definitely turned to evil. But I am wondering if things had built up to this in part because of the factionalization that goes on in high school. That one guy hurts another in some way, and it is tolerated. I am trying to see where it comes from and what would be a good way to stop it.

The fact is, we need to take responsibility as a society in many ways for this shit. The fact is, people who have not been taught that it is not okay to hurt others is what the problem is. The other thing is, in many ways, we have come to look at arabs as lesser beings. Someone on here said that Bush refered to them as brown skinned people meaning it in a durogatory way. This is what I am talking about, this is also what leads to things like Naziism, and that is why we need to change. The first thing we need to do is get the neocons out of offices.

[Kanary]

12. You must have been reading my mind.

Now, that's a scary thought. :)

I was just thinking that it's all related.........it's a matter of degree, not of something different. Verbal violence abounds in this society, and is getting more and more strong all the time. To more and more people, verbally triumphing over another person is considered the goal, and funny.

Even here at DU, where supposedly most of us are in agreement over so many things, when there is disagreement, the goal, in so many cases, doesn't seem to be to come to some understanding, but to "smash" the opponent verbally. It's part of the same victor mentality.

What's also part of the same process is the denial and defending once one is "caught". Just as now there are rationalizations about the torture in Iraq, I'm fully expecting the same rationalizations about what I just said about DU. Part of the same process.

A very good reason for the need of a Department of Peace.

Kanary

[stellanoir]

14. "A very good reason for the need of a Department of Peace."

Amen.

[DrWeird]

15. That's some sick shit.

I've never heard of frat hazing where pledges are beaten to death, raped, and electrocuted.

[NNN0LHI]

16. "In some ways this is like a frat hazing." Have you lost your mind man?

Do you not understand the implications of American soldiers murdering people in your name?

Don

[emulatorloo]

17. Apparently "R21" torture methods were employed systematically

very very far from "people ridiculing others' - this was systematic, planned stuff

Here is a thread to look at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=7723

Here is the article from the Guardian referenced in that thread:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html

<snip>
The spectrum of R2I techniques also includes keeping prisoners naked most of the time. This is what the Abu Ghraib photographs show, along with inmates being forced to crawl on a leash; forced to masturbate in front of a female soldier; mimic oral sex with other male prisoners; and form piles of naked, hooded men.

The full battery of methods includes hooding, sleep deprivation, time disorientation and depriving prisoners not only of dignity, but of fundamental human needs, such as warmth, water and food.
<snip>