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What really is the difference between Sunni and Shiíte?

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DAGDA56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:00 PM
Original message
What really is the difference between Sunni and Shiíte?
Excuse my ignorance of an Islamic Scism, but can anyone give me an idea of how close (or far away) they are in customs? Thanks.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. it's my humbly and fledgling understanding that the split
occurred in Najaf centuries ago, when a descendant of Mohammed (named Hussein) was slaughtered. Shia's are his followers. Sunni's are their opposition. Wahabiism is something that's far more a throw back to even earlier times.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm only remembering this vaguely.
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WMliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. yeah, then the followers of
one camp that became the shi'ites set up their dynasty of descendants called the Fatamid caliphate in Cairo. The others who became the Sunnis set up the Abbasid Caliphate in Baghdad. The Fatamid caliphate ended in 1170, when Saladin had the Fatamid Caliph murdered.
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PragMantisT Donating Member (893 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:05 PM
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2. I believe the schism came in the first generation after Muhammad.
One side murdered the son-in-law of Muhammad. The other side took offense. I don't know about the theology of the schism. Somehow the Sunnis are considered the more moderate, more western? I don't know any more than that and I'm probably incorrect about it. Just trying to help.

This way I can look up my posts and learn more.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another layperson's attempt at an explanation
As far as day-to-day differences in how an individual worships, I don't think there's a lot of difference. The Koran is pretty specific on how one should worship.

I think the schism stems from Shia's founding stories about who inherited the leadership of Islam after Mohammed (Shia's follow Mohammed's younger son, Sunni's his elder son).

Also, I believe that Shia muslims have more of a 'prophetic' flavor to how they view their religious leaders -- probably closer to how Protestants (especially evangelical ones) view their individual ministers. Sunnis, on the other hand, seem to me to take a more 'establishment' view of their leaders -- perhaps a bit more like the Catholic church sees their priests and bishops (although without the rigid hierarchy of Catholicism -- there's no 'pope' in Islam). However, it sometimes seems there is more of a leadership hierarchy in Shia Islam (topped off by the current Ayatollah in Iran). I'm not sure, however, how much Shi'ites outside of Iran look to Ayatollah Khamenei.


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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. can you say
the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland? about the same idea
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DAGDA56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Oh, I can say that allright...family members on both sides...
...but what I have seen in the 6 counties of NI, strikes me as more of a political or civil rights dispute with just a religious veneer. I do appreciate all who have responded, and I can see the difference in clergy analogy as made above.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. What about Protestants & Catholics elsewhere?
There are plenty of countries where they manage to co-exist. Not all strains of any religion are intolerant. It's in the interests of colonialists (or neo-colonialists) to portray their "subject peoples" as simple, violent creatures who must be protected from each other.

This link explains the Shia/Sunni split (adding to the most excellent summaries in this thread) and also states: "In 1959 Sheikh Mahmood Shaltoot, Head of the School of Theology at Al Azhar university in Cairo, the most august seat of learning of Sunni Islam and the oldest university in the world, issued a fatwa (ruling) recognizing the legitimacy of the Jafari School of Law to which most Shias belong. ....

"There is ongoing violent strife between Sunnis and Shias in Pakistan. On the other hand, in recent years there has been significant co-operation between the two groups in the Lebanon."

www.islamfortoday.com/shia.htm

And they've been learning to cooperate in Iraq, as well.





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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:37 PM
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7. Okay, when Muhammad died
Abu Bakr, his father-in-law, became the first Caliph, and was followed by Umar and Uthman, both early converts to Islam, both friends of Muhammad. Uthman was Caliph for 12 years. The first six were great, but the last six things got bad as the military ran out of easy conquests and started thus having to transition to a governing function rather than a military function.

There was a civil war under Uthman, and many wanted to replace Uthman with Muhammad's son-in-law, Ali. The civil war was eventually cooled without much bloodshed, but soon after, Uthman was murdered by a mob of Ali supporters. Even so, Muslims chose Ali as the new Caliph.

After four years of bad times, Ali was assassinated, and the caliphate passed on to a military man with no direct connection to Muhammad, and this started the Umayyad Dynasty. Meanwhile, the followers of Ali were pissed, and refused to reconcile with those who had killed Ali. The split was deeper than just the person of the Caliph, it involved pre-conquest regional differences, as well as issues of new converts versus original Muslims, and a lot of other things.

Ultimately the backers of Ali tried to set up their own caliphate under Ali's sons, Hassam and Hussein. The Alid armies were defeated, and both sons were killed at different battles, even though the youngest was just a child. These three deaths-- Ali, Hassam and Hussein-- are the subjects of the so-called Shi'a Passion Plays. It is also why Najaf and Karbala are holy-- because those are the battle sites where Hassam and Hussein were "martyred."

After these loses, the Alids became a non-threat, mostly, as their forces were defeated or else rejoined the main Muslim armies. So the followers, rather than reconcile, stayed apart, and began to look on Ali as the proper Caliph after Muhammad (excluding the other three), and that after Ali, his sons should have followed. I've forgotten the terminology, but they basically believed that although Muhammad was the last prophet, the descendants of his family had a sacred element, and were somehow guided directly by Allah. The wound up with a few of these types of geneological ideas after a while. The Mahdi is a term that implies a divinely chosen descendant, as does Ayotolla, though I've forgotten exactly the definitions.

The Sunnis are those who followed Abu Bakr's line of government. They are in some ways more like Catholics, with fairly ritualistic views of religion, believing mostly that a Muslim is a Muslim by doing the right, proscribed duties. Shi'a have a more mystical outlook, believing, almost like protestants, that the relationship with Allah is more spiritual, and that Allah can be revealed to the people through revelation as much as through the Qur'an and the Traditions of the Prophet.

That's a fuzzy line, of course, as Sunni and Shi'i can both be mystical at times, or ritualistic. But that's a basic summary of the history. The Shi'i believe that the Sunni rejected and slaughtered their saviors, just as Christians (in general) blamed the historical Jews for rejecting and slaughtering their savior.

As for on-the-ground differences, I don't know much. They follow different schools of law, different traditions, and different people, and of course Islam (like Christianity or Buddhism) takes on the character of the cultures it is practiced in, so there are also differences between Persian and Arabic culture, and these all blend to make them very different from each other to each other, but not as different from each other to outsiders.

It is quite a feat that we have united them, although it has happened to varying degrees when faced with other invaders. The idea that the Midle East has been fighting for over a thousand years and won't stop soon is just bigotry. There have been long periods of peace and soaring cultural achievements, and periods of war, just as in Europe or America.
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DAGDA56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thank you...perspective is everything, and you have much improved mine.
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