Why I don't support Kucinich

[goobergunch]

Back in February, I noted the entrance of Dennis Kucinich into the presidential race. I was familiar with Kucinich from C-SPAN and the House Progressive Caucus, which he is co-chairman of. I knew that of all of the candidates in or likely to enter the presidential race, Kucinich was the closest to my personal views on most issues.

However, I have also noticed a creeping conservatism in the American electorate. Although it is my firm belief that the U.S. has not significantly changed politically since 2000, even that America was drifting on the right-hand side of the center aisle. I admire greatly the ideals of Kucinich supporters. To them I say: If all Americans were like you, the country would not be in the mess it's in. However, I'm too cynical to share your optimism.

IMHO, the United States at this time does not seem to be ready for Kucinich's progressive vision. :-(

[JohnKleeb]

1. Well we cant just let things happen

We gotta work hard, hard work means victory, stranger things have happened other than this in the past, darker horses have won. He speaks from the heart really, and he is a sucess story.
Its ok Goob appreciate your honesty but we gotta to work hard and fight if we want to win. ABB all the way though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. I Admire And Respect Your Earnestness

You are one of the good guys
but can you please tell me what stranger things have happened than a Kucinich presidency.

I would vote for DK if he were the nominee but I really think it would be handing the election to Son Of A Bush.

[JohnKleeb]

10. ok

You mean presidential history? Harry S Truman's victory in 1948 despite schisms from left and right from Henry Wallace and Strom Thurmond respectively, and of course Thomas Dewey.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. But Harry Truman Was A Cold War Liberal

I wish there was a Harry Truman today.


Super progressive on the economy and the welfare state

and tough

on national defense.

[JohnKleeb]

13. he had schisms in his party left and right

thats my point. Kucinich isnt "weak" on defense hes opposed to wasteful military spending. Look I appreciate your honesty but I think we must work and fight hard.

[plurality]

14. or

A Catholic yankee liberal Democrat defeating the VP of a popular Republican president at the height of the Cold War, when conventional wisdom would say that a change in course wouldn't fly with the American public. Ie Kennedy in 1960.

[JohnKleeb]

16. aye

wasnt there also a small schism in the party that year too.

[Tinoire]

17. Are you afraid Dk would not garner enough support ?

If so, I disagree. DK has already beaten 3 Republican incumbents which is no smakk feat. He did that with the power of the people behind him, to include Republicans.

I will make you a gentlemen's wager that DK will get the majority of voters from the following groups:

African-Americans
Muslims (to include Black Muslims)
Arab-Americans
the Poorer immigrant groups
Greens & Progressive Independents
APN-type Progressive Jews
and the poor, down-trodden, disillusioned Americans who haven't given a rat's ass before because nothing was going to change for them

[Terwilliger]

18. You need to catch the Wolf Blitzer replay if you can

he did REALLY well...very on point and authoritative.

Hear you guys had a good time last night! Hope you enjoyed it :hi:

[Tinoire]

37. Another interesting tidbit. Veterans for Peace love DK /hate Dean

on edit: and they hate Kerry for personal reasons. It didn't help when "Military Families Against the War" briefed that Kerry has refused to meet with them. Ouch. I hadn't realized that and talked with them about it. He has categorically refused.

((Thanks I'll find it! and had a great time- will post a thread))

I spent the last two days at the Veterans for Peace National Conference in San Francisco. It was GREAT and these guys are SERIOUS! Whoooa.

Anyway... They are almost all pro-Kucinich. I couldn't even give pins out! They were already wearing them!

And then when Kucinich changed his plans at the last minute to come have breakfast with them, that was it- they were hooked and will not veer. When I say they, I should clarify that they are the majority, those that are still willing to believe that you can change anything by voting. Some of them are so SICK of the Democratic Party that not even Jesus Christ Himself could persuade them to have anything to do with the Democratic Party. It was really sad talking with those but what can you say besides :shrug: and "well, please consider giving us that sympathy vote so we can at least get the right guy in there otherwise the Democratic Party has no chance of beeing anything other than the Party that has let you down like this". I'll post a thread about this in GD soon. I had a terrific week-end and had the treat of meeting Will Pitt and having some pretty in-depth conversations with him- terrific guy!

[JohnKleeb]

19. yep

Unfortunely he wont get a majority of votes of people like me after all we did overwhelmingly vote shrub. All I can say is White Dudes, and if you relly wanna be specific white protestant dudes. I've been told that Gore got the women vote overall but Dubya just barely won white women, and Bush got white men 63-32 I think! Maybe some people forget where they come from, thats why I always remember when my ancestors were immigrants thus I am hospitable to immigrants.

[diamondsoul]

57. Actually,

most women I know LOVE Kucinich. They don't seem to care about his looks or his size, just his ideas.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Respectfully-That's Twenty Five Percent Of The Electorate

[plurality]

25. respectfully

Bush 'won' with less than 25% of the electorate.

*Remember only 50% of elegible voters voted in 2000 of whom Bush recieved 49% of them.

[Tinoire]

42. Yes I'll agree but it is an important, decisive 25%

To that 25% you have to add Leftists/Liberal Dems like me and all the other normal people who already support Kucinich.

This is why I think I'm convinced he can do it.

[plurality]

47. remember Bush 'won' with 25% of the vote, see my post above

[Mairead]

22. Remember the photo of Truman holding up the newspaper?

That's quite an upset, when a major daily was so sure that the GOP had a lock on the election that they were willing to print (and, iirc, deliver) a banner-headline edition.

Also: JFK beat Nixon, though the conventional wisdom was that an RC could not be elected, that Americans 'weren't ready' to risk Rome dictating political policy.

Also: 'the peanut farmer from Georgia', an unknown one-term governor of a minor state (nobody from Georgia had ever even been a candidate, I don't believe) defeated a sitting president. Yes, Ford had the Nixon pardon hanging around his neck and was laughed at ('walk and chew gum') but it was a major upset all the same.

[JohnKleeb]

29. yep

I am gonna be silly yet prove a point, remember when Bart ran for class president on the simpsons, everyone expected him to win, yet Martin won.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Truman And Kennedy

were cold war liberals and Jimmy Carter ran a moderate, non -ideological campaign.

And Ford was a selected president. I believe he was the first president that was never elected to either the vice presidency or presidency.

And Carter won in the aftermath of the Viet Nam War and Watergate. He had a hell of a wind at it's back.

I admire your dedication but a Kucinich presidency is not very likely.

[Mairead]

48. Smirk is a selected president, too, and never elected as vp or p

And Carter ran on the grounds of ideology (ethics). Sounds like there's a parallel there.

I think there's another, strong parallel in JFK. I can recall very clearly the pundits claiming that JFK hadn't a hope, that Americans simply would not risk putting Rome in charge. There was a really amazing amount of anti-RC rhetoric floating around. JFK was roundly cursed by all the proddy ideologues, and there were a *lot* of them.

[iluvchicago86]

2. I wholeheartedly agree...

Despite the fact that Kucinich's ideals are incredibly similair to mine, the fact that so much of America is right of center the idea of a president Kucinich to them would probably be quite impossible , and in fact silly..that is to your average right of center person. We need to slowly draw the country back to progressive ideals and IMO Dean is the man that can do it. 2004 is not the year for idealism, but rather it is one for realism.

[jiacinto]

4. Exactly

That's why I'm not supporting Kuchinich either.

[TheBigGuy]

5. What you said is that you DO support Kucinich.

"I knew that of all of the candidates in or likely to enter the presidential race, Kucinich was the closest to my personal views on most issues."

Which means you do support his stands on the issues.

You are just being strategic in your primary voting.

As far as the public being to the right, i dont know folks have moved that far to the right...they have been fairly "right" for some time based on historic polling results that ive seen (posted at a MSU or U Michigan site).

[LWolf]

6. Hmmm....food for thought.

I would ask you this:

How do you think we got so far to the right of center? What was the process?

[jiacinto]

15. My theory

The far right got mobilized. On several fronts they gradually swung America to the right.

The first thing that gave them the opening was the split within the Democratic Party on civil rights and Vietnam. The New Left of the 1970s helped discredit the Democratic Party, at least in presidential races, until 1992. The race riots and the social unrest of the area gave the far right the openining.

Secondly the right wing created the network of foundations, direct mail, fundarising, public relations, and other organizations that formed the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. They slowly took over talk radio and the media. They created Fox News. Their focus on media and public relations helped them make conservative assumptions/theories on welfare, illigitmacy, taxes, and education "accepted common knowledge".

Thirdly they mobilized at the very local level. The Christian Coalition was instrumental in this regard. In the 1970s and in the 1980s the far right devoted their energy to local offices--the ones no one wanted or ran for. They took over school boards and city councils, which then propelled them to higher offices over time. And they were able then to have the network of candidates that helped them win Congress in 1994.

That is the process that I think happened. The far right was able to take control by long term planning and hard work. They endured many defeats early on, but kept on pushing forard, knowing that victory was going to come someday.

And it did with a vegeance in the 1990s and in the 2000 presidential race.

[Ardee]

54. Another opinion

While I do not dispute the mobilisation on the right, their organisation, dedication and acquisition of media outlets et al none of that says anything about the absence of opposition or refutation of their propaganda, in fact it is as much a condemnation of the dmeocrats as anything else.

Also it says nothing about the inclinations of the american public, rather it infers that people are sheep to believe what they hear on the right wing news. I believe that people are reacting to the absence of an opposition party and, should we have a candidate ,backed solidly by a party apparatus, speaking to the lies and distortions of the Bush administration perhaps the electorate might surprise you.

Lastly I fear that what I request will never occur as long as there are neodemocratic conservatives in charge of the democratic party, as they appear to be conceding the '04 election by inaction, and aslong as there are those neoconservative posters here attempting to convince everyone that the country has swung incurably to the right.

[jiacinto]

55. The country has not "incurably" swung to the right

I agree that the Democrats had fallen asleep at the switch when the right was building the infrastructure that would become the VRWC. And the only way I see change is to start at the local level the way the CC did and work our way up.

[Ardee]

65. Thanks for the response

you stated earlier,"The far right got mobilized. On several fronts they gradually swung America to the right. "

If america has swung rightward, and I hasten to add that I do not believe that for one moment, it is solely because they have heard nothing in opposition to right wing propaganda for years!

That is why I feel so strongly that whichever candidate the democrats put forward the message should be loud and clear and strongly opposed to the Bush agendas. For cripes sakes we have Bush cold on so many lies, so many distortions of reality, so many outrageous acts that sending the fifth rate intellect back to his horseless ranch should be almost effortless.

Almost that is if the party actually gets behind its candidate, a not so certainty, imo. If Dean or Kucinich gains the nomination I feel rather certain that he will get only lukewarm support at best from the From's, McAuliffe's et al.......

Saying that the democrats need to build an infrastructure like that of the right wing gives an impression that leads to abandonment of the field to the GOP for the decade or so it will take to gain such an infrastructure.........

[Armstead]

61. Frankly Carlos

The right wing did what you always oppose. They took an ideology and stuck to their guns and fought for it, and made no apologies for who they were. Nor did they worry about whetehr they were "too conservative" for the swing voters. They didn't water it down and pretend to be liberals to make it more salable to the soccar Moms.

That's how they got ahead.

That's the opposite of what you are always saying the Democrats should do.

[jiacinto]

63. One thing

The Republicans have public relations/media strategies for every project they do. Democrats don't.

[goobergunch]

20. x (n/t)

[plurality]

7. the problem is

That liberal/progressives/Democrats have looked at the Nixon/Reagan/Bush phenominon and think it's because Americans don't agree with them. I disagree. I think it's because progressives have been afraid to stand up for their ideas and to try and convice America that they have the correct vision. Case in point, Lieberman and the DLC and the theory of 'we have to be centrist because that's what the polls say'. If we sell out our principles instead of fighting for them Americans are going to see us for what we are, people with no principles who only care about winning instead of fighting for them. That's precisely why I believe Kucinich can and WILL win if only the people who believe in his vision will give up the pessimism and cynicism and FIGHT for what we believe in. I believe we have the RIGHT IDEAS and that if we STAND UP for those ideas, we can convince the skeptical public (most of whom don't support either party and don't vote at all) that the progressive vision is one that will make America and the world a better place.

[RichM]

8. So, if the US isn't ready for DK's vision, but YOU are, do YOU change to

be more like the rest of the country? Or do you try to work to change the political environment, so that it moves to a higher level, & comes to appreciate the progressive vision?

[DemBones DemBones]

9. FDR didn't say "Well, we need to go slowly and not upset anyone

so we'll just have to ride out the Great Depression and hope for better days."

LBJ didn't say, "Oh, we can't enact a Civil Rights Act now. People aren't ready for it. Maybe in twenty years. Or fifty years."

VOTE FOR DENNIS KUCINICH AND CHANGE THINGS NOW, NOT LATER!!!

[JohnKleeb]

11. read me mind

yeah!
On civil rights, my English teacher was telling us about his grandfather, who was probably the only person in his family against civil rights, so my teacher said why grandpa when are you gonna be ready. On FDR if he had taken it slow I dont think I would be as well off as I am.

[goobergunch]

26. Usually I would agree...

but we need to do whatever it takes to get * out in 2004...otherwise, it may be too late for reform. :scared:

[wheresthemind]

40. your right...

but it all depends on the theory subscribe too...

Can Dennis wow the nation with a message like no one has ever heard?


Or do I really have to put up with the same old wishy-washy, politically correct, politics till the end of my days.

[JohnKleeb]

44. I think he can

People like this come about once a generation who are president, you can say that for FDR for the greatest generation, JFK and RFK if he hadnt died for the baby boomers, and now DJK for my generation, also if you have noticed the great men and women of American history are known by their intials, DK hmmmmm

[wheresthemind]

21. the electorate has gone right because...

We've gone right.

Whens the last time we had a REAL alternative to right-wing conservatism? The DLC has lost us the White-house, the Senate, the House of Reps, and the country!

The US is ready for Dennis's vision, and we'll be bringing the 50% who don't vote with us.

Wasn't it Truman who said something like "When the people have a choice between a republican and a democrat who acts like a republican, they'll choose the republican every time?"

[goobergunch]

24. I am not arguing for Repuke-lite..

I don't even know if Kucinich has sufficient support in the Democratic Party for the nomination.

I will pledge this: If Dennis Kucinich wins even one district-level delegate or at large delegate in either Iowa or New Hampshire, I will switch my endorsement to him.

[plurality]

28. Dem support -check Kucinich poll

Granted it's ~120 people in a 30,000 people forum (but CNN/etc use 1000 to represent to views of 300 million)

If all people who agreed with Kucnich's ideas supported him he would have ~76% support.

[goobergunch]

33. Only on DU...

it's not a representative sample of the Democratic Party, let alone the U.S. electorate...if it were, America would be a better place.

Anybody have a link to the latest presidential preference DU poll? It illustrates my point.

[wheresthemind]

35. I will hold you too that!

If everyone who believed in Dennis's message supported him, I think Dennis would be a front runner. I don't think anyone should compromise in their beliefs durring the primaries.... thats for later.

[AnAmerican]

50. Gonna hold you that my friend :)

[Mairead]

53. I think he's already got a national committeman in Iowa

and they're delegates ex officio, afaiaa. See the quote in my sig

[goobergunch]

56. That's why I said "district-level or at large"...

PLEOs don't count. ;-)

Do you have a list of Iowa DNC members? I've got a delegate count on my website and I try to keep it as updated as possible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I Think 1972 Was The Last Time Americans "had a real alternative to

right wing conservatism".

Candidates on the edge don't do well

Goldwater in 1964

McGovern in 1972


If you run on the far left or the far right you allow your opponent to claim the center where elections are won.

[plurality]

30. only when your opponent is a centrist

check Rall's theory, which makes a lot of sense. You don't beat extremists (Bush) with moderation. You have to provide a true contrast.

[JohnKleeb]

34. Nixon was a centrist basically yeah

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. To The American People RN was a centrist

And Republicans would call him a RINO today

Nixon gave us

the EPA

the first Affirmative Action Program

Food Stamps

Wage and Price Controls

[JohnKleeb]

49. thats my point

Bush cant claim the same about him. That being said, while Nixon did some good stuff, I dont like the bastard.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. I've Seen His Theory

LBJ and Nixon both benefitted from having extremist* opponents. They were able to portrait themselves as centrists and capture the middle.


I think Bush is an extremist as do most folks on this board but most Americans see him as a moderate or conservative leader.






*politics is as much about perception as it is about reality

[JohnKleeb]

41. Nixon was centrist imo

He really wasnt right wing, he was a scumbag imho but he wasnt Reagan right wing, he wasnt a Goldwater republican granted, but he was a member of the NAACP, a group that you hardly see republicans get good grades from.

[Mairead]

52. By the standards of his time, yes. But he was actually well to the left

of Clinton.

[wheresthemind]

31. but you need to polarize.

Bush is righter then anything we've seen in some time. We need someone that is opposes Bush on every issue offers a CLEAR alternitive. Dennis Kucinich is the Anti-Bush! Positive insted of negitive, smart insetd of dumb, speaks english as oposed to simple folk talk.

[Mairead]

36. Food for thought from Rav Hillel of Babylon

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

But if I am only for myself, what am I?

And if not now -- when?


It's that last line that's the kicker: if not now--when? When will there be a better time, and why?


And from a very great poet:

Now's the day! and now's the hour!
See the front of battle lour!
See approach proud Edward's power -
Chains, and slaverie!

[DemBones DemBones]

39. "Kucinich isn't electable" is a GOP talking point -- why is it said at DU?

What do we care what the GOP says? Most Americans are not Republicans.
They are Democrats, Independents, Greens, Socialists, etc., or they don't vote. Get all those groups together, being sure to get the nonvoters to vote, and you have a huge majority. Get votes from all those groups and you win.

[Larkspur]

45. I don't support Kucinich because he is not practical

He doesn't have a way to get his policies passed in a conservative to an openly-hostile-to-progressive-ideas Congress, and he has not shown any history of battling idealogues on both sides of the political spectrum and getting policies passed.

While the Rabid Republicans in Washington are thousands of times worse than those in Vermont, Dean's experiences battling the Left and Right and still getting legislation passed will be crucial to his successfuly Presidency.

[diamondsoul]

59. No, it'll amount to

no difference at all between now and then. We've tried to negotiate with both sides. It's not working. We need a fighter in the Oval Office who will look them in the eye and say "No, you cannot do that to our citizens because I will NOT let you.". Defeat the enemy within and pacify the enemy without. All it takes is a single leap.

[JackieO]

60. I like your attitude

Welcome to DU!

[diamondsoul]

62. LOL

Thank you! I keep telling people (those I see engaging in flamewars all over message boards), we're not just speaking for ourselves when we talk about Kucinich, we're selling him to people. We're trying to wake them up from the cynical and apathetic stupor so many of us fell into when we didn't have a voice in Politics. We're trying to knock down those barriers and rekindle some sense of what they really WANT out of their country.

A lot of the time I'm not very gentle about it, but sometimes it's that sharper edge that does the job.

Mostly the attitude is I have a goal, and a man I consider a personal hero and kindred spirit, counting on me to achieve it. How often to we get a chance to be the heroes of our hero?

[Bushknew]

46. Paul Wellstone would have never made to the Senate without support.

Paul Wellstone would have never made to the Senate without support.

DonÕt be afraid to be a Democrat.

Support Kucinich

[bpilgrim]

51. of course that is just what the corp media want you to believe

but i would say that must polls on the issues show must americans to be onboard with his positions.

anyways, i am pulling for the person who most reflects my postions naturally ;->

but will vote for ANYONE but bush :bush:

peace

peace

[JackieO]

58. I hope you can find it within yourself

to stand up for what you believe in and work towards what you know is right. If you refuse to lead and keep being led around by the corporate media approved version of reality, the time will never come for any kind of progressive vision.

The future is in your hands, friend.

[DisgustedTX]

64. Kucinich is the RFK of the modern era without the enormous wealth

We may not be ready now (personally, I am), but his time will come.

The man is inspiring in the right way. He believes in the average citizen, believes in diplomacy over agression - the message resonates loudly here.

He's been accused here of being a lunatic and a "yeller". There's a simple reason: people, including many here, refuse to confront the sorry state of the country. Political correctness and "strategy" has taken the place of fire and honesty.