BBV: news about Riverside, California and the lawsuit

[Eric J in MN]

Riverside County was ordered by California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley not to use electronic voting machines.

The county has a lawsuit against the state, saying that blind voters won't be able to cast their votes secretly on optical-scan ballots and so the order discriminates.
http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-me-evote7may07,1,1018716.story?coll=la-headlines-technology

I wrote the California Elections office, recommending that Riverside supplement its optical scan ballots with the AutoMark from Vogue Election Systems. That machine would help blind voters to fill in optical-scan ballots, while other voters fill in the optical-scan ballots the usual way.
http://www.vogueelection.com/products_automark.html

The California Elections office replied to me that Vogue hasn't applied for certification in Califrornia, and even if it does, it will still be up to each county to buy it or not.

-------
I still think that any loss of privacy by a blind voter who uses an optical-scan ballot is minimal, even without the AutoMark.

Firstly, the precinct can have a poll-worker who doesn't even know the blind voter's name assist the voter to fill in the optical-scan ballot.

Secondly, the blind voter can get assistance from a friend or spouse or relative.

[mitchtv]

1. I'm sure the election is already "over"

here in Riverside Co. Guess who won?

[Eric J in MN]

2. I'm still hoping the state of California will win the lawsuit and

I'm still hoping the state of California will win the lawsuit by Riverside and Riverside will use optical-scan ballots.

Too bad Vogue's AutoMark isn't certified in Califoria, because then the state would definitely win.

[mitchtv]

3. so what? they can't print braille cards?

they have other languages available

[Eric J in MN]

4. That is another solution. They could provde

That is another solution. They could provde blind voters with braille ballots.

An argument against that is that if there is only one voter in the precinct who asks for a braille ballot, then a poll worker would know who he or she voted for.

I still think that less-than-total secrecy for one voter in a precinct is better than every voter using electronic machines which may be rigged and can't be used for meaningful recounts.

[Unperson 309]

8. Braille is so bulky

that a standard ballot comes out the size of Life Magazine.
Braille voting machines (punch type) can be made, but also many blind persons who were blinded later in life do not read Braille or do not read it fluently.

It's a really difficult call. Actually, electronic voting, with voice technology, would be easier for blind or mobility impaired folks to use, but then BBV just isn't the way to go.

309

[Bushfire]

18. Kick

:kick:

[Maat]

7. Hey, Mitchtv ... I live in good ol' RVC!

And I get your joke!

[historian]

5. I live near riverside

and from what ive heard the AG is investigating diebold for fraudelent voting practices and has banned them from doing business till everything is cleared up.

[Eric J in MN]

11. Yes, but there is a lawsuit by Riverside to continue black box voting

Yes, but there is a lawsuit by Riverside to continue using Diebold machines, on the theory that using optical-scan ballots would discriminate against the blind, since the blind would need assistance and therefore their votes wouldn't be completely secret.

[historian]

13. riverside is becoming another gop stronghold - why i dont know

[Eric J in MN]

15. kick

kick

[Unperson 309]

6. Still Bad...

Blind persons are at the mercy of someone filling out their ballots for them.

I volunteered a couple times during Presidential elections to fill out absentee ballots at the local blind center. During the 1992 election, one guy voted hard right, selecting candidates that were complete Neanderthals... Ran totally against everything I stood for...

And I marked his ballot EXACTLY as he dictated it. Still... I've heard of others who weren't as lucky. Unless and untill a blind poerson can cast his or her OWN, private, SECRET ballot, s/he is not a full voting citizen and that's just wrong!

BBV disenfranchises blind persons *and* those who rely on others to vote for them.

309

[ParanoidPat]

9. I don't think you quite understand what you're talking about.....

......or perhaps I just don't get what you're saying. :evilgrin:

You state that, "BBV disenfranchises blind persons *and* those who rely on others to vote for them." Are you trying to say that the use of 'Black Box' direct recording electronic voting machines that allow the blind to listen to audio to talk them through where to push on the screen on their own, thus casting a ballot in complete privacy, somehow "disenfranchises" the blind or are you referring to us anti Black Box people who want a human readable voter verifiable paper ballot as being the ones who somehow "disenfranchise" the blind because they can't see the ballot to verify it?

It's the AAPD (American Association of People with Disabilities) that are lobbying for the exclusive use of Black Box voting and against the use of any form of 'voter verified paper ballot' on 'equal protection' grounds. They make the extraordinary claim that it's somehow unfair for sighted people to be able to 'see' a ballot to verify it because blind people can't! :crazy:

If you follow that line of extreme logic then I could make the same argument that Black Box voting "disenfranchises" quadriplegics because they can't use their hands to touch the screen and have to rely on someone other than themselves to cast their ballot and thus lose their right to cast their vote in complete privacy!

I suppose we could go to an all audio system where you just say the candidates name but then that would "disenfranchise" the deaf mutes! :wow:

Perhaps a better solution would be for the disabled to vote absentee and have a trusted friend or loved one help them to fill it out. Just like we've always done in the past. :)

[RedEagle]

10. Ballot Templates

http://www.electionaccess.org/Bp/Ballot_Templates.htm

Ballot Templates.

Think of them as "low tech" "touch" systems.

FYI, only about 20% of the blind can read braille.

[Unperson 309]

12. What I Meant Was...

Touch screen voting is difficult for blind folks. Voice technology would be easier, by far, but the current setup is difficult.

Frankly, I do prefer hand marking ballots for people and if they have a blind center or a trusted family member, that's great... but that is not independent or private balloting, is it? :)

BTW, I haven't read it, but I'd bet a short bit that the organization supporting BBV would be that accurssed National Federation of the Blind... the SAME folks who *also* oppose tactile curbs, audible signals, marked currency and other things to enable blind people. Why? Because "Blindness is not a disability"...

Tch'yeahRIGHT! But let's not talk about them... they are the blind community's version of the Republican Party.

309

[SoCalDem]

14. Blind people could always use absentee ballots.

They are sent out with a "lead time" that would surely allow for the person to get a friend or family member to help them..

The whole BBV issue is that we are ALL disenfranchised if we vote for "X" and the vote is given to "Y" after it "enters the box"..

Blind, or sighted.. we all lose :(

[RedEagle]

16. Getting to the Polls is the First Obstacle- Eliminated with Templates

Ballot templates are a type of folder that a ballot is inserted into.

The voter gets an audio cassette and follows the instructions, that guide them to tactile impressions on the folder. They mark their own ballot using this system.

This ballot system can be mailed to them for elections for way, way less than the paperless touch screens- and it produces a paper ballot.

[Bushfire]

17. Response from CA Elections Division

Thank you for your recent email. Secretary of State Kevin Shelley has asked the Elections Division to reply.

Your email expressed a concern regarding the way our current voting system works. We are aware of the AutoMark system and have seen it demonstrated. They have not yet sought certification in California; but assuming they do and they pass, it will be available to be used in California.

The Secretary is aware of the security concerns, including the ones you have mentioned, and that is why he issued the 23 additional security measures for now and required an AVVPAT for the future.

The Secretary of State takes all suggestions from the public very seriously. We appreciate your taking the time to let us know your thoughts and we will take your comments into consideration as we work towards the Secretary's goals of reconnecting voters to the democratic process.

Sincerely,
Elections Web Mail Representative

[e-mail]

[Bushfire]

19. Why has this thread died?

Doesn't anyone else feel it is important for AutoMark from Vogue Election Systems to submit itself for certification in CA?

[Eric J in MN]

20. You can call the company on Monday and talk to them about it

Vogue Election Systems

phone: [phone]
312.948.4450

[RedEagle]

21. Vogue's machine is now ES&S

ES&S, the company that Chuck Hagel, good friend of Bush I, has a stake in.

Might it not be better to get control of such a system and make sure it's implementation is delayed?

ES&S could just be sensing which way the wind is blowing, and, behind in developing their own paper system, took over Vogue.

But when certification is let lag.....

[Eric J in MN]

22. Can you give me a link which says ES & S bought Vogue? nt1

nt

[RedEagle]

23. Off the top, no. Will post it if I find it while doing a million other

...things today.

I'd Google ES&S if you can't wait. Think they renamed Vogue's system the Automark.