Venezuela Signature Repair: Both sides still claiming victory.

[Imperialism Inc.]

2 reports from VHeadline give conflicting claims. Obviously, both can't be correct. Hopefully we'll know soon enough.


Monday, May 31, 2004
Repair signature totals show the Venezuela's opposition did NOT collect the required number of referendum signatures
http://vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21426

Patria Para Todos director and Comando Ayacucho member Rodolfo Sanz said Monday that “we have the signature totals ... but we can’t reveal the numbers yet ... however, the opposition didn’t collect the number of signatures required to convene the (Presidential) recall referendum, despite trying as many tricks as possible.”

Sanz, who participated on the Venezolana de Television (VTV) program “En Confianza,” affirmed that an important political act took place. He believes that Jimmy Carter tipped his hand when he stated that the irregularities discovered (dead people’s signatures and fake ID cards) wouldn’t have any significant effect on the final repair results. He said that Carter’s subjective opinion shouldn’t have been made public, because he needs to wait for the results like everyone else, and the observers must abide by all of the rules, not just some of them.

Sanz said that a second important political act took place at the opposition coordinator’s press conference at the (Caracas) Hotel Melia. “It’s evident that they’re not going to recognize the results unless they are favorable to the opposition. That’s what Alberto Quiroz Corradi said after he left a meeting with Carter. I’d like to know Carter’s opinion on this.”

===
Apparently an email from an opposition official to VHeadline editors.

Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Opposition claims 2,547,506 (validated & repaired) signatures
http://vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21428

Total signatures up to and including 8:00 p.m. (20:00 GMT) Sunday, May 30

Signatures required by the CNE: 2,436,083

From the repair process were obtained:

727.672 signatures repaired

91.121 signatures excluded

636.541 signatures net

Signatures previously validated by the CNE: 1,910,965

Signatures net repaired: 636,541

Signatures total: 2,547,506 (validated & repaired)

[Alerter_]

1. Kerry attacks Chavez again in one, two, three ...

wait for it!

[Imperialism Inc.]

5. Bush backed Colombian invasion in...

;-)

[Alerter_]

12. actually, it was Clinton that put our troops in Colombia

around 99, 2000. "Plan Colombia" I believe it was called.

[redqueen]

20. And people still wonder

why we don't get all warm and fuzzy about when / if he wins.

*sigh*

[Judi Lynn]

22. He sent in a limited number.

Bush is the one who arranged, through Republican controlled legislation, to have the limit removed on both funds and personel without any chance for debate anywhere.

[bemildred]

2. I will wait for the statement of the CNE.

Carter and OAS have already said the repair process went fine.

[Imperialism Inc.]

3. Miscellanea

http://vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21430
Heavily opposition-loaded Globovision Channel 33 TV News president Guillermo Zuloaga says "it's eminently clear that the National Elections Council (CNE), the government, opposition and international observers are aware of the results ... and the influence that Carter and Gaviria might put on them announcing the results as soon as possible could avoid serious tensions." Gaviria and Carter met with the directors of Globovision, Venevision, RCTV and Televen on Monday.

the TV executives have acknowledged that both Carter and Gaviria have also asked them to show greater balance in coverage of Venezuela's domestic politics and Venevision president Gustavo Cisneros said that both Carter and Gaviria had indicated they want a speedy announcement where at least 525,000 more signatures are needed to achieve the minimum 2.4 million (20% of the electorate) required under the 1999 Constitution.


=======


Accion Democratica (AD) attacks Venezolana de Television (VTV) team
http://vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21424

Accion Democratica (AD) members have attacked a Venezolana de Television team with shouting, insults and shoves. The crew was attacked near the AD’s headquarters in El Paraiso (Caracas) as a VTV reporter interviewed National Assemblyman Juan Barreto.

Mayoral candidate Barreto arrived accompanied by various bodyguards, after which AD partisans surrounded him, insulting him and demanding in a rude and violent manner that he leave the area. After the VTV crew finished interviewing him, Barreto and his bodyguards left quickly, leaving the young Channel 8 reporter and her team at the mercy of the AD, who immediately started attacking her with shouts and shoves.

========
(Clipped from another thread here)
Venezuela’s Signature Re-certification Ends Without Major Incident but with Many Minor Ones
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1284

Gathering signatures to remove Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez Gregory Wilpert and Martin Sanchez, Venezuelanalysis.com (May 31)
According to union spokespersons, workers at a Coca-Cola plant in Antimano, Caracas, were fired from their jobs for refusing to go repair their signatures, which were included in the anti-Chavez signature drive without their authorization or under pressure. The workers introduced a formal complaint at the Ministry of Labor, and claimed that similar situations were experienced at Coca-Cola plants in the states of Carabobo, Lara, Bolivar, and Monagas. The Venezuelan subsidiary of Coca-Cola is owned by billionaire Gustavo Cisneros, who also owns Venzuela's biggest TV network, and who is believed to be the main economic supporter of the anti-Chavez movement in Venezuela.
According to the pro-government campaign team, Commando Ayacucho, an examination they conducted of the records to be repaired, 5,382 deceased persons were found in the records during the first two days. Spokesperson William Lara said that the Commando Ayachucho would formally request the CNE to remove these names from the registry.

========

Coordinadora says will release results if CNE doesn’t declare it the winner
http://vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21434

========

Venezuela's MinCI Jesse Chacon: Venezuela is proof that participative democracy works
http://vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21433

[Imperialism Inc.]

10. From JudiLyn

Wanted to track this down. Took me a while I shouldhave bookmarked it.

From: JudiLyn
In this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=592787#592805

I had heard of trouble with supervisors forcing employees to sign the recall petition under threat of losing jobs at the Coca Cola companies in Venezuela all the way back when they were in the first round, but I had NO IDEA who owns the companies. From your first article:

According to union spokespersons, workers at a Coca-Cola plant in Antimano, Caracas, were fired from their jobs for refusing to go repair their signatures, which were included in the anti-Chavez signature drive without their authorization or under pressure. The workers introduced a formal complaint at the Ministry of Labor, and claimed that similar situations were experienced at Coca-Cola plants in the states of Carabobo, Lara, Bolivar, and Monagas. The Venezuelan subsidiary of Coca-Cola is owned by billionaire Gustavo Cisneros, who also owns Venzuela's biggest TV network, and who is believed to be the main economic supporter of the anti-Chavez movement in Venezuela.
(snip)

From a Guardian article:

The tycoon who led the media onslaught that preceded the coup and whose television station announced it, Cuban-American Gustavo Cisneros, is an old fishing pal of Bush senior.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0424-04.htm

[redqueen]

16. Where are the anti-Chavez people who used to defend the opposition?

Great find, thanks for posting it!

[Judi Lynn]

18. Ha! Were you thinking, by any chance, of the desperate "Windnsea?"

Lord, he really wore on, didn't he? I'm sure he's biding his time to make his comeback as someone else.

Were you around the 2 days he tried to get back in under another name, and kept posting the same things he had posted earlier? It didn't take people long to recognize his familiar pattern.

He's probably trying to perfect his next persona!

[redqueen]

19. Yeah, that's the one

I thought there was more than one, but I do remember windansea as being one of the main morons on the topic.

I really don't see how anyone claiming to have a brain could continue with that line of non-thinking, honestly.

Such outrage... such tragedy... and all in the name of greed. *sigh*

And -- shock, horror -- there are lemmings in the streets, acting on behalf of the greedy thugs! Will wonders never cease?!

[Judi Lynn]

23. You're right to mention multiple blowhards. He seemed to have a cohort.

It's fairly common for them to work in teams. Don't know why, but it seems to work out that way.

Just keep an eye on these threads, and you'll note that when a right-wing-appearing poster appears to be getting more than he can handle, a very similar new blowhard shows up and tries to cover him.

Just like "tag team wrestling." It has happened so often that it's almost predictable that if the guy doesn't get control of the discussion, you'll see his/her support guy fairly soon.

[AP]

42. The summer wind, came blowin’ in - from across the sea

It lingered there, so warm and fair - to walk with me
All summer long, we sang a song - and strolled on golden sand
Two sweethearts, and the summer wind

Like painted kites, those days and nights - went flyin’ by
The world was new, beneath a blue - umbrella sky
Then softer than, a piper man - one day it called to you
And I lost you, to the summer wind

The autumn wind, and the winter wind - have come and gone
And still the days, those lonely days - go on and on
And guess who sighs his lullabies - through nights that never end
My fickle friend, the summer wind

[AP]

43. windansea might have been a second persona for preexisting DU'er too.

[Judi Lynn]

48. That has occurred to me, too, AP.

I've noted that level of maturity before, and the point of address.

I think he's a lil' fella who has lived a charmed life, actually. He doesn't seem too flexible, which is something people who have learned through experience have developed. They become less rigid, less self-absorbed, more thoughtful.



Just found a reminder which many of us have already read, which underscores the connection between Cuban and Venezuelan "exiles," who have been politically active as materialistic, hard-right wingdings:

The tycoon who led the media onslaught that preceded the coup and whose television station announced it, Cuban-American Gustavo Cisneros, is an old fishing pal of Bush senior.
(snip)

Originally published in:Published on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 in the Guardian of London
Bush's Bay of Piglets
If the US was the Villain in the Venezuelan Coup, Latin America's Much-Derided Leaders Were the Heroes

by Duncan Campbell
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0424-04.htm

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

70. I was in Miami last week and there papers seem to have

a distinctive anti Chavez bent. That was at quick glance, though to be fair. I didn't read too much. Just a passing skim in a rag or two.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. "a distinctive anti Chavez bent" -perhaps because they reported the news?

Just a thought.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

71. Hey AP - you ever have a back and forth with someone and their relpies

remind you VERY MUCH of how someone else would reply? You know, same attitude, defensiveness, lack of maturity, etc? That just happened to me in that Chavez Carter integrity poll.

Just sayin'

[Feanorcurufinwe]

77. LOL

Your implication is false.


I find it revealing you have to resort to veiled insults and false accusations -- reminds me of today's news.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

69. Not that name again!!!

Ugh!!!

I was here the day he tried to reenter - the sucker didn't even try to alter his unmistakable message. He practically said "my girlfriend is gorgeous" again!

[Imperialism Inc.]

4. Interesting, unrelated LTTE (VHeadline)

Malcolm Donald: if you want true democracy then nationalize the banks

http://vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21432

* It is the bankers who rule the world not the United States.

So, if you want true democracy then nationalize the banks and have the democratically-elected government take over the bankers' role of issuing the debt-based money supply ... then the money supply and the associated interest gained can be used for the benefit of all the people rather than the wealthy few.

[redqueen]

17. That person deserves a Nobel Prize for this!

They're quite right, you know. Thank you so much for posting it. :)

[Imperialism Inc.]

6. Mmmmmm. Venezuela.

Sorry , saw this earlier, felt like being a perv hehe.



(from:
Global growth for Venezuelan rum :
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/01/1086058846788.html)

[Imperialism Inc.]

7. FEATURE-Crime, armed gangs make Venezuela frontier hot zone

FEATURE-Crime, armed gangs make Venezuela frontier hot zone (Reuters)
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N31715957.htm

ALTA GUAJIRA, Venezuela, June 1 (Reuters) - Venezuelan National Guard Capt. Carlos Morales banks his helicopter sharply over two smugglers' trucks barreling along the sun-parched scrubland to the Colombian border.

With the rotors churning up dust ahead of them, one truck turns back. The other bolts into a Guajiro Indian encampment a few miles (kilometres) from Colombian territory.

Morales lands, and his co-pilot and a sergeant dash from the helicopter, handguns drawn. A minute later the suspected smugglers and their cargo of local beer are in custody in Alta Guajira, a sparsely populated peninsula about 440 miles (700 km) northwest of Caracas.

"This is nothing," said Sgt. Adelso Pirela as he stood guard over five men and a truck piled high with crates. "Usually they come in convoys, 10, 15 trucks carrying fuel, food, everything. They call them ants."

[bemildred]

8. That was interesting. $.19 a gallon gas ... nt

[Vladimir]

9. Thanks for keeping us updated

my guess is, it will succeed... but we will see soon enough.

[Imperialism Inc.]

11. Kicking.

I'll kick it again forthe evening crowd later.

:kick:

[Judi Lynn]

13. We don't get the whole story, at once,on Venezuela, unfortunately,usually

(The article refers, to the NY Times article acknowledgement of gross misinformation on its part toward the true Iraq picture, and directs readers to be aware of shabby, slipshod reporting elsewhere, which many, MANY of us already know, especially in reference to Venezuela!)

Published: Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Bylined to: Mark Weisbrot


North American mainstream media falls short on Iraq, Venezuela

(snip)
Venezuela is a case in point. The Bush administration has been pushing for "regime change" in Venezuela for years now, painting a false and exaggerated picture of the reality there. As in the case of Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction and links to Al-Qaeda, the Administration has gotten a lot of help from the media.
Reporting on Venezuela relies overwhelmingly on opposition sources, many of them about as reliable as Ahmed Chalabi. Although there are any number of scholars and academics -- both Venezuelan and international -- who could offer coherent arguments on the other side, their arguments almost never appear. For balance, we usually get at most a poor person on the street describing why he likes Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, or a sound bite from Chavez himself denouncing "imperialist intervention."

Opposition allegations are repeated constantly, often without rebuttal, and sometimes reported as facts. At the same time, some of the most vital information is hardly reported or not reported at all. For example, the opposition's efforts to recall President Chavez hit a snag in March when more than 800,000 signatures for the recall were invalidated. These signatures were not thrown out but were sent to a "repair process," currently being tallied, in which signers would get a second chance to claim invalidated signatures.

The opposition accused President Chavez of trying to illegitimately deny the people's right to a referendum, and the press here has overwhelmingly echoed this theme. But some vital facts were omitted from the story: the disputed signatures were in violation of the electoral rules, and could legitimately have been thrown out altogether. Furthermore, these rules -- requiring signers to fill out their own name, address and other information -- were well-known to organizers on both sides and publicized in advance of the signature gathering process. <1> These rules are also common in the United States, including California. But readers of the US and international press would not know this. And few would know that the members of Venezuela's National Electoral Commission -- which is supervising the election -- was appointed by the Supreme Court, with opposition leaders applauding the appointments. <2>

Even worse than most news stories on Venezuela are the editorials of major newspapers, where factual errors have become commonplace. The Washington Post has accused Chavez of holding political prisoners and having "muzzled the press," <3> and referred to the Electoral Commission as "Mr. Chavez' appointees." <4> All of these allegations are incontestably false. According to the U.S. State Department, "There no reports of political prisoners in Venezuela." <5> And far from being "muzzled," the press in Venezuela is one of the most furiously partisan anti-government medias in the entire world. Two months ago one of Venezuela's most influential newspapers actually used a doctored version of a New York Times' article to allege that the Chavez government was implicated in the Madrid terrorist bombing! <6> But the media has never been censored by the Chavez government. <7>
(snip/...)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21441
(Free registration required)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I thought it's important to post these points today, considering I just found them, and in memory of the fact a visiting poster, last week tried to push this kind of disinformation across as legitimate.

As you see, it could take some of us FOREVER trying to run down the actual facts once someone has stepped in deliberately to throw around a lot of right-wing talking points on Venezuela, which our experience tells us are distortions.

It only takes him/her a few minutes writing out the misinformation, and it could take any of us hours we may not have at the moment, so the misinformation may stick until someone has the time to locate the facts. (Surely real D.U.'ers already recognize this.)

Here's the source for the "no political prisoners" which I bolded and underlined:
< 5> U.S. Department of State, "Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2003: Venezuela," Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, February 25, 2004, http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27923.htm

[Judi Lynn]

14. Relative story: NY Times Reporter Quits Over Conflict of Interest

This is not the first time a NY Times reporter quit, or was asked to quit, due to improper reporting on Venezuela:

NY Times Reporter Quits Over Conflict of Interest: Venezuela Misdeeds Adding Upon 43rd Street
by Al Giordano
www.dissidentvoice.org
March 25, 2004


The New York Times’ Venezuela problem continued to snowball yesterday as its Caracas correspondent Francisco Toro resigned.

Toro acknowledged, in a letter to Times editor Patrick J. Lyons, “conflicts of interest concerns” regarding his participation in protest marches and his “lifestyle bound up with opposition activism.”

Toro’s obsessive anti-Chavez position in Venezuela was publicly known after last April’s coup when he began sending emails to Narco News and other journalists who he placed on his own mailing list attacking Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez. That the Times hired him in the first place was a violation of the Times’ own claims to objective and disinterested reporting. But regarding Venezuela, it was not the first.



Toro’s resignation – the text of his letter sent to the Times management last night appears below - is the latest in a long series of missteps and misdeeds by the New York Times and its reporters regarding the New York newspaper’s one-sided and inaccurate Venezuela coverage:

* Last April, the Times editorial board had to issue a public apology – sent to journalist Jules Siegel (a professor at the Narco News School of Authentic Journalism) by editorial board member Gail Collins. She said, “Nobody should ever cheer the overthrow of a democratically elected government. You're right, we dropped the ball on our first Venezuela editorial.”

* Also last April, New York Times reporter Juan Forero reported that President Chávez had “resigned” when, in fact, Chávez had been kidnapped at gunpoint. Forero did not source his knowingly false claim. Forero, on April 13, wrote a puff piece on dictator-for-a-day Pedro Carmona – installed by a military coup – as Carmona disbanded Congress, the Supreme Court, the Constitution and sent his shocktroops house to house in a round-up of political leaders in which sixty supporters of Chávez were assassinated. Later that day, after the Venezuelan masses took back their country block by block, Carmona fled the national palace and Chávez, the elected president, was restored to office.
(snip/...)

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Giordana_NYT-Venezuela.htm

[Vladimir]

15. What - biased media? In America?

well I never...

[Judi Lynn]

21. Here's something which was spun at DU only yesterday

It's in the article directly above your post. I had not read the entire thing, and just was looking it over when I saw this item:

Toro first appeared on the pages of the Times last September 24, when he was quoted by Forero and identified as “an editor at Veneconomia, a financial newsletter,” bolstering Forero’s spin that Chávez had wrecked Venezuela’s economy. Two months later, Toro popped up as a Times reporter.
(snip)

A reference to the accusation Chavez wrecked Venezuela's economy. This is too strange.

Both of them had to get the heck outta the N.Y. Times after throwing around their spew long enough to get quoted by psychopaths. How sad.

[Vladimir]

26. The more things change,

the more they stay the same...

[AP]

41. Damn!

[Imperialism Inc.]

24. Thanks JudiLyn.

I knew that was non-sense as I had read something that explained why it wasn't true and how it had started. I didn't care to bother to find it at the time because he was so transparent anyway, and I was kinda hoping the thread would die because I was regretting sort of bashing Kerry. You have a real knack for finding the truth :)

The other big lie that gets told as truth is the "narco-terrorist" line which began because Chavez volunteered to moderate peace talks between the parties in Colombia during a cease-fire, denied the US the rights to use Venezuelan air space, denounced Plan Colombia, and stated that the guerrillas are not enemies of Venezuela (but that of course doesn't mean they are friends, he is just taking a neutral stance which seems wise to me).

Here is an interesting, but very old article, that discusses some of these points in addition to Chavez trying to re-integrate Cuba into the Latin American economies and establishing oil trade agreements with other Latin American countries.

The Geo-Politics of Plan Colombia
February 2001
http://www.colombiapeace.org/documents_2001_6.html

[Judi Lynn]

49. Outstanding body of information you postesd, MiddleMen.

It'll take a while to really study it, and I'm stashing it away immediately. This is an excellent link, very thorough.

It would help so much if more people took the time to start informing themselves on the matters being undertaken in our names, for chrissakes.

I'm looking forward to the day people trying to push a hard-right agenda are going to be met by lots of well-informed people who can help them sort things out!

“It was another September 11th , but 28 years earlier, that a president by the name of Salvador Allende died resisting a coup d’etat planned by your government. Again, it was a time of horror, but it happened far from your borders in an unknown little republic in South America. These little republics were in your back yard and you never worried much when you sent your marines and their blood and fire to impose your point of view. Did you know that between 1824 and 1994, your country has led 73 invasions in Latin America? The victims? Puerto Rico, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Haiti, Colombia, Cuba, Honduras, the Dominican Republic, the Virgin Islands, El Salvador, Guatemala and Grenada. Your government has been at war for almost 100 years. Since the beginning of the twentieth century, there's hardly been a war anywhere in the world that your Pentagon’s not been involved in. Of course the bombs always exploded far from your country...” Gabriel García Márquez

http://www.colombiasolidarity.org.uk/Solidarity%2010/thepeoplesayno.html

Be prepared, wear a raincoat. You never know when Windnsea will surface!

[Imperialism Inc.]

25. Ahhh, what the heck I'll put here too for those, like me, who didn't

notice it when they read the book.

Excerpts from the election edition of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy
Venezuela: Fear for Sale
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1188


Excerpts from the election edition of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy
Venezuela: Fear for Sale

By: Greg Palast - http://GregPalast.com

--cut--
For ChoicePoint, with its 15-billion-plus records on every living and dying being in the United States, Ground Zero would become a profit center lined with gold. Contracts would gush forth from War on Terror fever not hurt by the fact that ChoicePoint did something for George W. Bush that the voters would not: select him as our president.

--cut--
I had hoped so, until a “little birdie” faxed me what appeared to be confidential pages from ChoicePoint’s contract with Mr. John Ashcroft’s Justice Department. A no-bid $67-million deal offered profiles on any citizen in half a dozen nations. The choice of citizens to spy on caught my eye. While the September 11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon and the United Arab Emirates, ChoicePoint’s menu offered records on Venezuelans, Brazilians, Nicaraguans, Argentinians and Mexicans.

What do these nations have in common besides a lack of involvement in the September 11 attacks? Coincidentally, each is in the throes of major electoral contests in which the leading candidates—presidents Luiz Ignacio “Lula” da Silva of Brazil, Néstor Kirchner of Argentina and Mexico City mayor Andres Lopez Obrador—have had the nerve to challenge the globalization demands of George Bush.

When Mexico discovered ChoicePoint had its citizen files, the nation threatened company executives with criminal charges. ChoicePoint protested its innocence and offered to destroy the files of any nation that requests it.

But ChoicePoint, apparently, presented no such offer to the government of Venezuela, home of President Hugo Chavez.

Hugo Chávez drives George Bush crazy. Maybe it’s jealousy: Unlike Mr. Bush, Chávez won office by a majority of the vote. Or maybe it’s the oil. Venezuela sits atop a reserve rivaling Iraq’s. In Caracas, I showed Congressman Nicolas Maduro the ChoicePoint-Ashcroft agreement. Maduro, a leader of Chávez’s political party, was unaware that his nation’s citizen files were for sale to U.S. intelligence. But he understood their value to make mischief.

If the lists somehow fell into the hands of the Venezuelan opposition, it could im-measurably help their computer-aided drive to recall and remove Chávez. A Choice-Point flak said the Bush administration told the company they haven’t used the lists that way. The PR man didn’t say if the Bush spooks laughed when they said it. Our team located a $53,000 payment from our government to Chávez’s recall organizers, who claim to be armed with computer lists of the registered. What was practiced in Florida, without Choice-Point’s knowledge, could be retooled for Venezuela, then Brazil, Mexico and so on. Is Mr. Bush fighting a war on terror…or a war on democracy?

[Vladimir]

27. Kick n/t

[Imperialism Inc.]

28. Final kick for the night crowd

:kick:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. So what exactly is Carter's evil motive?

:eyes:

[Imperialism Inc.]

30. I thought you didn't believe in VHeadline?

Glad to see you changed your mind.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. So what exactly is Carter's evil motive?

Please stay on-topic, the fact that vheadline is a propaganda outlet for Chavez is not the question, my question is, what exactly is Carter's evil motive? What is the reason that Carter is so biased against Chavez?

[Darranar]

32. Who said that Carter was biased against Chavez? n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. The article that is the subject of this discussion implies such. nt

[Imperialism Inc.]

34. That is hyperbole at best.

Trying to pick a fight at worst.

Several minor incidents have occurred that one would hope the observers might comment on. Surely it is perfectly valid to wonder what Carter thinks about a guy coming out of a meeting with him and saying what he said? Hopefully he will address that kind of attitude and perhaps the Coca-Cola incident when he speaks tomorrow.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. Hard to tell but it sounds like you agree that it is unlikely

that Carter has some axe to grind here.

[AP]

40. I don't think Carter has an axe to grind, but he is friends with one of...

... the fascists. Didn't he go to the Unavsion guy's kid's wedding?

Sometimes people are resistant to the idea that their friends are bad people.

Maybe Chavez doesn't give enough to Carter's NGO, but the rich Venezuelan's do?

Maybe that buy's a lot of presumption of innocence.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

44. 'Carter is friends with a fascist' - and he's for sale? nice smear

Totally without basis -- I would be willing to bet Jimmy Carter's credibility against Hugo Chavez's.

[AP]

45. It's a fact that they are friends. But it seems like it isn't clouding his

judgment. I don't know for sure.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. Would Carter agree that this is a 'fact' ? LOL

Does Carter believe he's friends with a fascist? LOL I doubt it.

It's not a fact, it's an inflammatory characterization. I don't even know who this supposed fascist is, but my guess is that neither he nor Jimmy Carter agree with that characterization.

[AP]

57. Cisneros. Read the posts below.

Do you think it was wise for Carter to be hosted by Cisneros?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

63. I think exactly what I said.

That the statement: "Carter is friends with a fascist" is not a fact, rather, it is an inflammatory characterization.



Do you think it was wise for Carter to be hosted by Cisneros?

I have no idea. Could you please direct me to an independent source that documents the incident you are referring to so I may make an informed judgement? Thank you.


On edit: really, I can't imagine that any news article will include enough information for me to second guess the 'wisdom' of Jimmy Carter's decisions. I have no opinion about Hugo Chavez, rather I am waiting to see what happens. But I do respect Carter's integrity and honesty.

[AP]

67. Netflix: The Revolution Will Not be Televised.

That should make it clear who the fascists are.

As for Cisneros, you have a star. Search the archives for, say, posts by JudyLyn containing "Cisneros".

I respect Carter's integrity, but I don't respect his judgement if he decided to stay in a house Cisneros provided him while he was in VZ.

As for recusing himself because he went to Cisneros's kid's wedding and socializes with hime, I'm not sure if that makes sense, because there aren't many organizations that do what he does.

But, I don't think anyone's really arguing the organization is corrupt. We're just trying to explain why Carter doesn't have harsher language to describe the opposition. Well, if he's friends with the people we're expecting him to bitch out, that might explain that a little bit. But it doesn't seem to be affecting the work Carter's doing down there.

(I wonder if he'll still be friends with Cisneros if he gives the election a thumbs up?)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

68. When I hear someone accusing Carter of being

'friends with a fascist' I feel like I have learned more about the person making the accusation than I have about Carter.

It's inflammatory hyperbole. Or in other words, bullshit.

[AP]

73. Fascism is a technical political term, and the opposition in Venezuela

don't run from it. That's what they are. They're proud of it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. I don't believe for one second

that Carter would label the statement "Carter is friends with a fascist" as accurate - do you?

[AP]

79. Ciseneros is a fascist. Cisneros is Carter's friend. Therefore, Carter is

friends with a fascist.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

80. TOUCHE! n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

81. Yes, you said it but that doesn't make it true.

"Ciseneros is a fascist.


Is that true? You say so. So what?



Cisneros is Carter's friend.


Is that true? You say so. So what?



Does Carter call Cisneros his friend? Does Carter call Cisneros a fascist? His opinion is one that I respect. You are just some anonymous message board poster, your assertions mean nothing.

[AP]

82. You have all the information you need to make this judgment yourself...

How would you characterize the politics of a man who wants business to run government for the benefit of the rich and is willing to support a coup and murder of civilians to achieve that end?

How do you characterize the relationship between a two men who go to weddings, fish, and stay in homes provided by the other?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

83. I don't agree. All I have is highly biased news reports - from both sides.

And your even more obviously biased characterization.


I prefer to reserve judgement on the situation in Venezuela. I just don't feel that I have enought impartial information to make an informed judgement.

[Vladimir]

84. Reserve judgement?

Pull the other one, its got bells on...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

85. If you would explain what your post means, I would respond to it. nt

[Vladimir]

86. That your mind is made up is clear for all to see n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

87. I will state my case, you state your case. Don't put words in my mouth.

Or if you do falsely and dishonestly try to state what you imagine to be my position, I will call you to task.

[Vladimir]

88. I am quaking in my virtual boots n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

89. Who cares? I don't care about your emotional state.

Why would I? :shrug:

[Vladimir]

90. When they told Metternich

that Talleyrand had died, he replied 'I wonder what he meant by that?'

[Feanorcurufinwe]

91. Do you think Chavez will abide by the decision of the Council?

Speaking of the topic.

[Vladimir]

93. If it is in the intrests of the people n/t

[AP]

92. I asked two easy questions.

And I'm pretty sure all the facts I presume are true.

Your problem is with characterization and not with the facts.

So, can you answer the questions so that we know how you'd characterize the facts?

[Imperialism Inc.]

74. If nothing else that documentary is amazing because you

get to watch a coup live!

And then the way the media reported it! It is pretty easy to see who the bad guys are once you watch that.

For those who haven't seen it here is one part of it. There was an opposition march that was supposed to take a certain route to the state oil company(day of the coup), as well as a Chavez supporter rally at the palace. At some point the leaders of the opposition march changed their route(illegal) to go the palace instead of their original destination. Next thing that happens is government supporters are being fired on (snipers) from somewhere (is not clear at first). Eventually, after a few deaths and injuries, since in 1 in 4 Venezuelans carry handguns, some of the government supporters draw their pistols and start firing in the direction of the shots. So the private media runs the government supporters shooting with a camera angle that only shows the shooters but not the empty street below. They try to make it seem like the government supporters are firing on the opposition, but the documentary contains a camera angle that shows the empty street below clearly. Very devious shit.

If you are a peer-to-peer user you can find the flick on emule as well. The english version is:

ed2k://|file|The-Revolution-Will-Not-Be-Televised.Vcd.mpg|757187208|481734035ADC08A17CD4D495100715BA|/

[Vladimir]

50. I wouldn't

I don't understad this romance that gets engaged in with certain former US presidents. Carter, and all this international monitoring of elections business, only serves to demean and debase the third world. Chavez's credibility is unimpeachable - in what other country to you stage a violent coup, fail miserably, and not even go to jail for it?

[Judi Lynn]

52. Good question, and I don't think you're going to get an answer.

They don't like to discuss the obvious, as it doesn't favor their position.

I think a lot of people would LOVE to hear one of them explain why it is the coup plotters are not in jail, even after he was taken entirely against his will from his office.

You may notice they do NOT have the information which stands up to scrutiny.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

55. I don't believe Jimmy Carter is a liar,

nor do I believe he favors those who donate to his foundation.


History will judge Chavez. I'm not ready to pass judgement.

[Vladimir]

58. Its not about what you or I believe

if he is not a liar, he is surely a damned fool. When Scalia went fishing with Cheney before that supreme court ruling, everyone rightly raised a shitstorm. But when Carter goes fishing with an opposition leader before an election he is meant to be supervising...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

59. Wrong - we are talking about what we believe.

You believe one thing, I believe something else. :wtf:

[Vladimir]

60. So you don't mind Scalia going

fishing with Cheney before that supreme court ruling thingy then? Lets try to be consistent here...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. What don't you make up some other words to put in my mouth?

That way, I don't have to do anything, you can just argue with yourself.

[Vladimir]

62. Well the two situations are equivalent n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. Is that true? What are the facts of the matter?

Could you cite an indepedent news source please? Thank you.


My personal opinion is that I trust Jimmy Carter's judgement on this issue more than any anonymous poster on DU. Wow I must be a fascist. :eyes:

[Vladimir]

65. See post #46 n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

66. I disagree with your characterization.

[redqueen]

72. You need an independent source...

to tell you the situations are similar?

Seriously?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

76. I need multiple independent sources of information on any subject

before I make up my mind about something, yes. I don't just believe what I am told, whether it agrees with my preconceived notions or not.

Seriously.

[Judi Lynn]

46. I've read Cisneros is a friend to both George H. W. Bush and Jimmy Carter

Read some time ago about Jimmy Carter's attendance at the wedding of Gustanvo Cisnero's daughter.

Here's a snip:

Media tycoon Gustavo Cisneros, a close friend of former US president George H. W. Bush, was yesterday fishing with another former president Jimmy Carter in the Amazon. The businessman is a board member of PanAmCo as well as owner of Venevision, a local television channel.

Mr Ch vez last week branded Mr Cisneros and the owners of the other three principal private TV channels the "four horsemen of the Apocalypse" for their support of the strike against him and their alleged complicity in last April's coup attempt.

Venezuela's four principal television channels have broadcast almost constant propaganda backing the strike since it began.
(snip)

http://www.thisdayonline.com/archive/2003/01/21/20030121bus10.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gustavo Cisneros & family , 57 , inherited and growing
Track This Person
Source: media
Net Worth: $4 bil
Country of citizenship: Venezuela
Marital Status: married , 3 children
Babson College, Bachelor of Arts / Science


Latin America's media baron, owner of big holdings in Univision, AOL Latin America, DirecTV Latin America and a score of other media companies. An outspoken critic of Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, whom he criticizes for "arrogant abuse of power and authority." In turn, Chavez accuses him of complicity in last April's coup attempt and of using his private TV station Venevision to undermine the administration, accusations Cisneros vehmently denies. Luckily, about 80% of his holdings are outside Venezuela. A socialite, Cisneros hobnobs with U.S. friends such as Jimmy Carter and George Bush Sr. Guests at his daughter's lavish New York wedding reception in October included Kofi Annan, Sid Bass and Oscar de la Renta.
(snip/)

http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists/10/2003/LIR.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=2003&passListType=Person&uniqueId=GX8F&datatype=Person

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jimmy Carter arrives in Venezuela on Cisneros invitation

Caracas, Jan 15 (EFE).- Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter arrived in Venezuela Wednesday afternoon at the invitation of telecommunications and media mogul Gustavo Cisneros. Carter was welcomed at the airport by Cisneros, whom Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has accused publicly of heading the abortive coup of April 11, 2002.

The Caracas daily El Universal reported that Carter, winner of the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize, will remain in the country for a week as Cisneros' guest at a fishing camp on the Orinoco River in southern Venezuela.

According to press reports, the former U.S. president will meet on Jan. 20 with the head of the Organization of American States, Cesar Gaviria, who has been in the country since Nov. 8 attempting to mediate the negotiations between the government and the opposition, in hopes of resolving the country's current political crisis.

Carter will discuss with Gaviria advances made in the negotiations and the creation of the "Friends of Venezuela" group, which was being discussed Wednesday in Quito, Ecuador, according to the newspaper. The 78-year-old former U.S. president may also meet with Chavez, according to local press reports, although this has not been confirmed by Venezuelan officials.
# # #

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2003/01/6270.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Venezuelan billionaire Gustavo Cisneros (right), who is aiming to buy Aston Villa, rubs shoulders with former United States president Jimmy Carter. He is also a fishing partner of former US president George Bush. -- AP
http://www.straitstimes.com/football/story/0,1870,200398,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bonus Link! Something very strange:

Published: Sunday, January 04, 2004
Bylined to: David Coleman

Venezuelan Customs seize $2,500,000 illegal shipment of US banknotes

In a story that is not being given any significant coverage by international wire services and/or Venezuela's opposition-controlled print and broadcast media, it is reported that Customs & Excise officers at the Caracas (Simon Bolivar) international airport in Maiquetia have seized a 25-kilo (55 lbs.) sack said to hold an illegal shipment of United States banknotes to the tune of US$2,500,000.

The airport raid has been kept under wraps since December 30 when the cache was discovered off an American Airlines flight 935 that had arrived from Miami a day earlier. Investigations show that the US greenbacks were part of an urgent dispatch from Bank of America to the Caracas-based Italcambio handled by Transporte de Valores Bancarios C.A. (Transvalcar) ... further interrogation of customs clearing personnel over the New Year's holiday shows that there have been at least seven (7) previous operations in which an estimated $21 million was imported to Venezuela, allegedly bypassing strict currency control regulations.

Detectives have already tracked down a consignment which arrived at Maiquetia on December 18 in two sacks each weighing 45 kilos ... a conservative reckoning of the value has been set at $3.2 million.Police sources say they received an anonymous tip-off from airport officials and that an immediate mobilization of National Guard (GN), State Political & Security (DISIP) police, IRS/Seniat, Exchange Control Authority (CADIVI), State Attorney's Office and Vargas court officials was set in motion ... the seizure was video-taped under strict conditions of secrecy and the banknotes were taken under armed escort to the security of vaults at the Central Bank of Venezuela (BCV) in the early hours of New Year's Eve.
(snip)

It is already known that Italcambio's owner, businessmen Carlos Dorado, has been identified as one of the foremost financiers of anti-government actions, he has been a ferocious anti-government op-ed columnist in El Universal and took a leading role in the short-lived Carmona Estanga coup d'etat in April 2002.
(snip/...)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=14395
Free registration required

[Vladimir]

51. Well obviously

thanks for the info, but really, why do people need shit like this to confirm what is obvious - the Carter Centre is another tool for spreading the neo-imperialist agenda. Why the love affair? The Nobel Peace prize alone should condemn any recipient...

[AP]

53. I wouldn't be the first person to say that NGO's dependence on corporate

donations puts them in an awkward position.

And, an aside: we saw how Amnesty International stood up for truth and justice. They wouldn't show The Revolution Will Not Be Televised at their Vancouvery Human Rights Film Festival. They said that it would have put their workers in Venezuela in jeopardy. That's fucked up.

And I just have to say, it doesn't sound very smart of Carter to be hosted by the enemy of the government he's claiming that his NGO is supposed to be neutrally observing.

[Imperialism Inc.]

35. Save your hostile attitude for someone who cares what you

think about it. You are only confirming my initial impressions of you (that you are really angry about in the first place).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Your post is wholly inappropriate

Your opinions about me besides being wrong, are nothing but off-topic personal attacks. Please try to stick to the subject matter and not make it personal.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. Are you attempting to criticize someone who isn't even participating?

Why?

[Imperialism Inc.]

47. Did I ever tell you about my grandma?

She is so cool.

"Maw-maw" is what we grand kids always call her. All our friends too! She is a "maw-maw" to everyone she meets hehe.

What were we talking about?

Oh was it fish? I like fish. I have about a dozen or so Malawi Cichlids.

Whats that noise? You hear that?

My favorite ice cream has got to be cookie dough. To sit in the sand at the ocean's edge and listen to the wind blow and blow and eat a big double scoop of it.

Man that noise is really getting on my nerves.

But anyway back to the topic at hand I guess lol (sorry). Did I ever tell you about my cross-eyed stalker? No seriously, it was pretty bad. He was obsessed with me for a while. But once I ignored him for a while he went away.

Shhh... wait there it is again. It keeps going plonk plonk plonk. Maybe just the wind blowing through the flue vent.

Ever been to Caracas? It is beautiful in the spring.

Anyway, I'm probably way off topic by now and I need to do something about this plonk. So I gotta run.

Bye bye.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

56. Who cares?

The facts will emerge and we will eventually know whether or not Chavez will allow the recall to go forward.