Open Letter to My Green / Nader Friends

[welshTerrier2]

i don't know about converting you (to vote for Kerry) but i can tell you how i see things ... first of all, just to place myself on the political spectrum, i suppose i would be be classified as a demo-Green ... or perhaps a Green-o-crat ...

i totally hate our "two party dominated" system ... we have to find a better way to build not just a third party but a fourth, fifth, etc. party as well ... we are stuck on far too narrow a range on the political spectrum ... how am i doing so far?

now, having said that, i am 100% enthusiastically supporting Kerry ... Kerry does not understand the abuses that capitalism pushes on a democracy ... Kerry, and the democratic party, are not going to bring the changes we need in this country ... still with me?

well, if you are, here's where I speculate we have made different reads on what's going on in the world ...

bush is evil ... he is intent on destroying the social safety net, or what remains of it ... he is intent on destroying Medicare ... if you have elderly parents or know people who depend on the Social Security system, they are great risk if bush gets another 4 years ...

bush is evil ... he does not respect the separation of church and state ... today he was promoting his faith-based initiative ... he doesn't believe in public education or public anything ...

bush is evil ... he doesn't believe in protecting the environment ... he believes in protecting businesses from environmentalists ... we sit on the brink of a global warming catastrophe, a catastrophe that really could threaten all life on the planet, and all he wants to do is free oil companies to drill for more oil ...

bush is evil ... he lied about WMD's and destroyed any hope of building or strengthening our alliances with the global community ... his reasons for war were commercial; not noble ... and his recent blustering about having Saddam's gun can only alienate those in the Muslim world even further ... and let's not even discuss the suffering of Iraqis he's imprisoned ...

and Kerry? as I said, will the poor continue to grow more poor while the rich get richer and even more powerful under a Kerry administration ... the answer, i'm afraid, is yes ...

but I do think Kerry believes far more must be done to protect the environment ... i do think Kerry wants to move this country away from its dependence on fossil fuels ... i do think Kerry would be far less likely to lie and distort his positions than bush has done ... i do believe that Kerry holds sacred the need to protect Social Security and Medicare ... i appreciate Kerry's call to rollback the absurd tax discount giving to very high income Americans ... i do appreciate Kerry's call to deal with the "benedict arnold" corporations that move their headquarters offshore to avoid paying taxes ... even if he is not able to change that system, I'm glad he raised the issue ... Kerry does not want to "privatize" the entire government ... and I have no concerns about his view on church and state issues ...

so there you have my position ... we simply cannot afford to have 4 more years of bush ... Kerry is not my dream candidate, but, as I said, I'm supporting him 100% (with time and money) because bush has got to go ...

to those who see a more long-term view about building a viable third party, I tell you to come see me right after this year's election ... and I tell you that I'd be glad to help you now on the state or local level ... but if you look too long-term, you might just be missing what's right in front of your nose ...

[JayS]

1. When Kerry decides to listen a bit to us little people in the South...

...maybe we will think about voting for him.

[welshTerrier2]

2. please elaborate

are there issues of concern to "little people in the South" that Kerry has not addressed or shown sensitivity to ?

please explain ...

[Wonk]

3. Sounds like he's planning on voting for Shrub, which makes me wonder

wtf he's doing here, other than using DU as a forum to post in the gun porn threads in the gungeon...

[JayS]

4. No plans to vote for Shrub. No plans as yet to vote for Kerry.

Maybe if you would read my threads you would know why I am here.

[shraby]

5. I'd like to know what issues

"little people in the south" have that little people in the north, east and west don't have. Seems to me that with Bush in office we all have similar complaints.

[JayS]

11. Little people refers to the fact that we are treated like some sort...

...of bastard stepchild as far as Washington is concerned. It gets old. I posted one issue this morning in J/PS that was intended to show problems with a message that Kerry intends for the nation as a whole. This message falls flat here. And no, the issue of guns in the South is not all about firearms; it is a litmus test of sorts. Kerry fails thus far.




If you go to J/PS to read the thread, use this sentence instead of the similar one that is there. I messed the original up. Note that it took me five words to convey understanding of my thread to a storeclerk here when discussing Kerry...so don't read much into it.


Please discuss, seriously, how Kerry's statements on firearms and hunting can be reconciled with his voting record and the political groups that support and rate him

[welshTerrier2]

14. you'll excuse me

but you're way off topic here ...

if you would like to discuss Kerry's positions on firearms, please feel free to start your own thread ...

the purpose of this thread is to try to tone down some of the frictions i've seen on DU between Greens and Democrats ...

i'd greatly appreciate your cooperation ...

[JayS]

15. Someone wanted an explanation. They got it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

29. Pardon me, but you've gotta be fucking kidding me

Get off your high horse. The South gets paid more attention than any other group. You don't hear about how Bush needs to win in New England. You don't hear about how the West is going to be a vitally important region come November. No, you hear about the South. Where have the greatest percentage of appropriations been designated in our lifetimes? The South. Where did 4 out of 10 of our Presidential candidates come from? The South. Who did the South wind up voting for? A New Englander.

Quit the garbage, "woe is me" rhetoric. It's misguided, ego-centric, and misinformed.

[JayS]

36. Sorry, the race was over and done with by the time it got down...

...here.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

37. Oh really?

So Tennessee and Virginia on February 10th, Missouri on February 3rd, Maryland and Georgia on March 2nd... those victories don't count in your book, huh?

[JayS]

38. The battle was pretty much won in the press. n/t

n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. That's funny

Last I checked, the South still held their own media outlets.

[JayS]

40. They do, and they reported that we needn't bother wondering...

...who was going to win.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

41. Well that isn't Washington's fault

Nor is it the evil Northeast. Get over it - the South isn't the center of the universe, nor should it be.

[JayS]

42. Never said it was the center of the universe.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. You imply it is

You seem to think he has to cater his entire image and message to the "little people from the south" and if he does not, they will not vote for him. Why should the south get a courtesy that the rest of the country does not? What makes the south so important?

[JayS]

45. Who said he has to change his entire image? It would be nice...

...to see some ads. Maybe even a campaign stop or two.

[sangh0]

46. In Texas?

The Bush*bots would also like to see Kerry waste his money on Texas

[JayS]

47. I think Kerry might have a chance here. People are sick of...

...that fake Texan.

[sangh0]

51. Congratulations

You are definitely the most "interesting" poster on DU, and you have some really stiff competition.

[JayS]

52. hehehe Thanks. I try. :)

[Wonk]

44. From your profile: Country = Texas hehe. nt

[hippiegranny]

48. and who is running that addresses the issues

of those little southerner peoples? instead of bashing kerry in such a vague and ambiguous mannerism, maybe you'd like to tell us who you're voting for and why they are better than the other candidates. you have the floor.

[JayS]

49. All kinds of issues are being addressed. What will happen in...

...office sounds like more of the same though...

[welshTerrier2]

7. guns eh?

well, that seems a couple of lightyears off topic ...

the point of this thread was to try to open a real dialog between hardcore democrats and greens ...

is that all that "little people in the South" care about, guns ???

of course, the poster has not yet indicated exactly what he cares about ...

[natrat]

6. how could you possibly not

vote for him. The consequences of another 4 years of the chimp fraud should scare anyone with half a brain. With all his rapture crap and the arrogance and ignorance and....

[Bridget Burke]

25. Greens with Guns? Nader's Rifles?

Who is this "we" for which you speak?

I'm in the South--but I'm also in Texas. Generally we do not consider ourselves "little people". And quite a few of us are voting for Kerry. Not perfect, but he's far better than our idiot ex-governor.

[noiretextatique]

8. i don't think you will convince anyone who isn't convinced already

to be honest. i left the democratic party while clinton was in office, but i voted for gore, and i will vote for kerry. many greens here did the same, and some who voted for nader in 2000 will be voting for kerry in 2004.
i suspect most people here will vote for kerry, when the time comes.
however, if i thought nader had a snowball's chance in hell of actually winning, he would get my vote.
peace.

[welshTerrier2]

shedding a little light

well, NB, what you say might be so ...

and if it is so, we should all probably put an end to all this purposeless discourse ... because if all minds have been made up and then closed up tight to keep out the next day's sunlight, there is little point to running around with our little flashlights ...

but we really can't know whether there are fence sitters still out there ... is every 2000 Nader supporter absolutely comfortable with their decision in 2004? this includes both those who have decided to vote for Kerry and those who have decided not to ...

what else are we to do but keep listening, and talking, and trying ??

[noiretextatique]

12. indeed...best wishes for your sincere

and positive effort. it's a far sight better than the other stuff :7

[welshTerrier2]

13. thanks, NB ...

i try ...

[bvar22]

9. I will be voting Kerry in Nov., but...

...I have lost alot of faith in the current incarnation of the Democratic Party. The more Kerry talks, the more disillusioned I become.

I no longer send money to the DNC/DLC; my money goes to Mark Dayton to use as he sees fit. I have returned all requests for money from the DNC/DLC with the above info.

I am also investigating this site. I won't send them any money until I can get some further verification, but they seem legit.

http://www.progressivevote.org/

[mzmolly]

10. Good for you contributing to Mark Dayton. I am so proud of this state

at times. Mark Dayton, Paul Wellstone, Bob Dylan, Al Franken, Jessica Lange, Walter Mondale...... The list goes on.

[mike_c]

16. so it's come down to the lesser of two evils again....

Deja vu.

[natrat]

17. nah * is well beyond evil and

Kerry seems to be principled. There is no comparison

[mike_c]

19. no my friend, for many on the left this election will definitely...

...be a non-choice for the lesser of two evils. Where were Kerry's principles he gave Bush the green light to invade Iraq? When he helped John Ashcroft mount the biggest assault on the Bill of Rights in 100 years? When he promised to "finish the job in Iraq?" When he helped Tom Ridge form the Directorate of Fatherland Internal Security?

Kerry will certainly be an improvement over the dim son, but he's no liberal's wet dream. He may be a distant lesser evil, but that doesn't make him the president I want to lead America out of this nightmare. Just the one I'll settle for.

[welshTerrier2]

18. far from perfect but not evil

i don't see Kerry as an evil ... i see him as a very important step in the right direction ... he's not an "end"; he's a "means" ...

many issues were cited in the base post that highlighted significant differences between Kerry and bush ...

let's cherry-pick just one issue: global warming ... the risks posed by this problem are enormous ... Kerry is a strong advocate for alternative energy sources ... he seems, to me at least, to be committed to using technology to find more environmentally friendly sources of fuel ... his energy plans are far from perfect ... but evil? that just doesn't seem to fit ...

you want evil? the current oil-for-one and one-for-oil administration has been driving our entire foreign policy and military apparatus for the benefit of his oily friends ... and these oily birds have been catching a lot of worms ... how many died in Afghanistan to secure the Unical pipeline? how many have died in Iraq to put money in Cheney's Halliburton pockets? people are being destroyed under the pretense of protecting America ... it's just not the case ... the administration manufactured their case for war ... and they didn't do it for the good of the country; they did it for their own greedy purposes ...

believe what you will but i don't believe that most democrats who voted for the IWR did so to benefit big oil interests ... i think they believed, and they shouldn't have believed, that Saddam posed a real threat ... so they may not be perfect but i see them as a whole lot more honest than bush and his crew ...

anyway, as i said earlier, democrats, or at least the current democratic party, will not ultimately deliver "the" big change ... but they can deliver "a" critically needed big change by getting rid of bush ... they may not make the sun shine but at least they can get us a place out of the rain ... and I don't see providing some much needed shelter, even temporary shelter, as an evil ...

[mike_c]

20. it's a figure of speech, fer christ's sake....

The least unworthy of two unenthusiastic choices. You know I wasn't calling him "evil." Bland-- completely unable to resolve his inner conflict over the IWR-- not likely to put any real brakes on the corporate take over of American government-- not a strong enough reformist to root out the PNAC droids in DoD and DoS-- unwilling to carve out strong opposition stances on the Senate floor where he has some real influence-- all of these disappointments and more-- but no, he's not "evil." Just a disappointment.

Kerry's election will be genuine cause for celebration, but for negative reasons. I'll celebrate the shrub's removal from the WH, but Kerry will have to prove himself on his own merits.

[welshTerrier2]

21. my friend, that's a half empty argument ...

but perhaps we are disagreeing only over jargon ...

you stated: Kerry's election will be genuine cause for celebration, but for negative reasons.

i have two comments in response:

1. why not recognize that the "cause for celebration" you cited is due to the fact that we would make tremendous progress from where we are today ... in fact, think of it this way: what president has been elected in the last 50 years that would make as much improvement as Kerry will make over bush? perhaps a case could be made for the JFK election in 1960 ... why look a gift horse in the mouth ... i see a half full glass and i feel pretty damned good about it ...

2. i apologize in advance for the following because it's a line of thinking that I haven't quite worked out for myself yet ... this is sort of a trial balloon ... it will improve with time ... so, the second point I'd like to make is about your citing a laundry list of very legitimate "disappointments" you have with Kerry ... I could produce a list at least as long with similar sentiments ... but it seems to me that the days of "clearly seeing" and focussing on such things have passed away during the primaries ... it was good then to say the truth and fight for your principles ...

but today's mission requires a different mindset ... if it is right to vote for Kerry as you said you planned to, and if 4 more years of bush will bring unimagineable devastation to all of us, certainly the weakest among us, then perhaps it is time to "accentuate the positive" ... this is not a call to stop thinking nor is it a call to abandon your principles ... it is a call to step out on the field, even if your support for Kerry is lukewarm, and do all you can to get him elected ...

imagine if 99% of the democrats supporting Kerry really disliked him but decided to vote for him anyway because they hated bush ... but imagine that, because their support was lukewarm at best, they refused to give Kerry any money and refused to work for him ... in all probability given this hypothetical, Kerry would lose ... and what sense would that make in this situation ... people who wanted to see Kerry elected instead of bush did nothing to bring about the goal they sought, however limited their enthusiasm for the goal was ... it just doesn't seem like a rational strategy to me ...

i spent months on DU ripping Kerry apart for his horrible support for the IWR ... I supported Kucinich in the primaries ... now, it seems clear to me that the only sensible thing to do is to do everything I can to get Kerry elected ... I don't try to match my expenditures of time and effort to my level of enthusiasm ... bush has got to go and that's that ...

sorry for the ramble ... i'm working on it ...

[mike_c]

22. I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression....

While I will certainly celibrate the demise of the shrub's political career no matter what form it takes, I do NOT plan on voting for Senator Kerry-- although I'll reconsider if the Green Party endorses him.

Back to the original topic of this thread-- I have a great deal of respect for Ralph Nader's contributions to politics and social change in America over the last 40 years, I'm not inclined to vote for him this time around either-- he's too much of a lone wolf without a clear party consituency or concensus platform to represent. The Greens have that, IMO, and I believe them to represent the future of liberal politics in America. So I'll wait until after their convention to make up my mind. Personally, I think "President Camejo" has a wonderful ring to it....

Oh-- I'm guilty as charged about the "half empty argument," but damn it feels like we're living in half empty times. The worst is that I fear we might look back on this one day and thenk that we didn't really have it so bad after all.

[welshTerrier2]

23. no problem ...

i did think you were voting for Kerry based on:

Kerry will certainly be an improvement over the dim son, but he's no liberal's wet dream. He may be a distant lesser evil, but that doesn't make him the president I want to lead America out of this nightmare. Just the one I'll settle for.

anyway, my mission here was to improve the dialog between democrats and Greens ... whether democrats are pulled into the Green party or Greens are pulled back to the democratic party, we have to look for areas of commonality and cooperation ... too much of the juvenile bickering on DU between democrats and Greens only strengthens the right wing ... the goal should be the building of coalitions when circumstances permit ...

[Solidarity]

26. I Agree

"my mission here was to improve the dialog between democrats and Greens ... whether democrats are pulled into the Green party or Greens are pulled back to the democratic party, we have to look for areas of commonality and cooperation ... too much of the juvenile bickering on DU between democrats and Greens only strengthens the right wing ... the goal should be the building of coalitions when circumstances permit ..."

I agree with with your goal and appreciate your contribution to this discussion. Your views in support of John Kerry were presented without the usual baiting, name calling and slanders and for that I commend you.

Your comments should help encourage a healthy and democratic discussion and debate on DU regarding the Nader candidacy and the Green Party.

Thank you.

[hippiegranny]

50. pretty good ramble

& it's gonna be fan-fuckin-tastic when it's "perfected!"

I agree with what you said in entirety. whether or not not Kerry would be our "conscience" vote if we had a viable field of alternatives THAT COULD ACTAUALLY TAKE ON THE BUSH WAR CHEST come november, I cannot see how anyone who claims to actually HAVE a conscience could do anything BUT put their vote where it has the best chance to harm bu$hidiot. I remember when du'ers were almost unanimous in the "I'd vote for a ham sandwich IF IT COULD BEAT BUSH" scenario. well, we've gotta get behind that ham sandwich now or it won't have a chance to beat bu$h with his huge campaign budget, not to mention the complicity of the whore media.

[debsianben]

53. I'll call him "evil"

"Lesser evil" seems pretty well literally accurate--not as evil as Bush, but pretty damn evil nonetheless. For example:

Spreading Bush's lies about WMDs before the war, voting for the war and committing himself to "Staying the course in Iraq"(i.e. sending off more American working-class kids to die for Texaco and Haliburton and regional control) is extremely evil, no two ways about it. Taking human life for corporate oil profits is not just "far from perfect", it's evil.

Helping Bush and Aschroft shred the Bill of Rights is pretty damn evil. If he acts as President on his lifelong support for "free trade", this will be very evil in human terms as more jobs are lost and wages and working conditions suffer.

The list goes on.

[welshTerrier2]

24. i had hoped for a more productive discussion than this

oh well, back to the old drawing board ...

[Bridget Burke]

27. How many "real" Greens are here?

How many truly committed to the platform of the Green party? Perhaps you were expecting some thoughtful responses from these folks.

Could it be that they are mostly whiny spoilers & stealth Republicans?

[welshTerrier2]

28. not sure

but i still think there are many people on DU (and off DU too) who are committed to the Green platform ...

to be honest, my goal was not only to discuss these issues with DU'ers but to solicit input and provide feedback for discussions I have with Greens in the "real world" ...

i frequently attend meetings of various "progressive" groups and there are often hardcore Greens there ... I would really like to improve my pitch to them so that they might at least consider voting for Kerry ...

not much real discussion on "voting strategies" in this thread though ... I'm glad to hear you plan to vote for Kerry ... anything else on the national level, this year, seems kind of suicidal ...

[sangh0]

30. I doubt the real committment

The issues they whine about wrt Kerry, like imperialism and corporatism are discussed in threads that have nothing to do with Kerry. You never see these supposedly "Green" whiners in those threads. Only the ones that criticize Kerry. If there's no way to use the thread to criticize Kerry, then those posters ignore the thread, even though it's about a subject they supposedly care enough about to criticize Kerry for.

[welshTerrier2]

31. perhaps i'm missing your point

is it your contention that those on DU who label themselves Greens are not real Greens ?? you think they are merely anti-Kerry attack dogs who chose the Green label for some mysterious purpose ?

i'm not really sure what you're point is ... please clarify ...

btw, using a phrase like "Green whiners" might just give you a wee little bit less influence with this group of people ... and isn't part of gaining support for your candidate and your beliefs part of what politics is all about ...

you often seem intolerant in the language and style you employ ... i'm sure you could be more effective with a different approach ...

[sangh0]

32. Yes, at least for some/most

is it your contention that those on DU who label themselves Greens are not real Greens ?? you think they are merely anti-Kerry attack dogs who chose the Green label for some mysterious purpose ?

I don't think the purpose was mysterious. They are less likely to get banned if they attack Kerry from the left.

i'm not really sure what you're point is ... please clarify ...

You're not going to be able to have a reasonable discussion with people who's behavior is fundamentally dishonest.

btw, using a phrase like "Green whiners" might just give you a wee little bit less influence with this group of people

I don't think it's possible to influence Freepers and disruptors.

and isn't part of gaining support for your candidate and your beliefs part of what politics is all about ...

I don't think any of us can persuade a Freeper to vote for Kerry. Besides, that's not what politics is ALL about. Part of politics is about getting your competitors supporters to sit out an election.

you often seem intolerant in the language and style you employ ... i'm sure you could be more effective with a different approach

And I am sure that I'm more than effective. I have helped register thousands of voters, and I've convinced scores of people to vote Dem. I've found that you can get people to fight for your side unless you show them that you are willing to fight for your side.

[welshTerrier2]

33. whining and criticizing and labelling = bad; communicating = good

btw, using a phrase like "Green whiners" might just give you a wee little bit less influence with this group of people

I don't think it's possible to influence Freepers and disruptors.

if you are truly able to see into the minds of all those who say they are Greens and truly know that, just because they don't plan to vote for Kerry, they are "Freepers and disruptors", then perhaps your point is valid ... but how can you know this to be the case in ALL cases ... it is just as easy to be nice and make strong, coherent arguments as it is to be snotty ...

and the benefit of doing this extends beyond merely the person to whom you are responding ... other DU'ers can learn how you strengthen your points as you debate with those who don't agree with you ... this can then carry over into discussions with non-DU'ers ... and in the end, you might just be plain wrong on some you suspect as being Freepers ...

the costs of making good points seems small; the benefits could potentially be very significant ...

you often seem intolerant in the language and style you employ ... i'm sure you could be more effective with a different approach

And I am sure that I'm more than effective. I have helped register thousands of voters, and I've convinced scores of people to vote Dem. I've found that you can get people to fight for your side unless you show them that you are willing to fight for your side.

for your accomplishments i commend you ... but your statements do not appear to be at all responsive to the point i raised ... the point i raised was that i think you are often confrontational on DU to those who disagree with you ... perhaps this stems from your assumption that many of those who do are Freepers ... i would be surprised to learn that what i perceive to be a confrontational style has met with success in "convincing scores of people to vote Dem" ... i'm not questioning your knowledge or your skill or your commitment ... i suspect that those you converted were converted because of themes you articulated, not because you called them Freepers and disruptors ...

[sangh0]

34. communicating with Freepers = bad, labelling Freepers = good

if you are truly able to see into the minds of all those who say they are Greens and truly know that, just because they don't plan to vote for Kerry, they are "Freepers and disruptors", then perhaps your point is valid ... but how can you know this to be the case in ALL cases ... it is just as easy to be nice and make strong, coherent arguments as it is to be snotty ...

I don't have to read minds when I can observe behavior. Also, your use of the word "snotty" would seem to contradict your desire to communicate. The same goes for the way you accused me of reading people's minds.

but how can you know this to be the case in ALL cases

I did say "some/most", not ALL. For someone who wants to communicate, you've done a poor job of reading what I've written.

the point i raised was that i think you are often confrontational on DU to those who disagree with you ... perhaps this stems from your assumption that many of those who do are Freepers ... i would be surprised to learn that what i perceive to be a confrontational style has met with success in "convincing scores of people to vote Dem"

Then you missed the point of my last sentence. Showing people how to fight helps convince them that they should fight along with you.

i suspect that those you converted were converted because of themes you articulated, not because you called them Freepers and disruptors

Nope. Some of the people I converted were talking about what a great team Bush* had behind him on 9/12. Then I got to them.

They don't say that anymore. Now, they're offering Hitler comparisons. And they applaud when I let local Bush*-bots have it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

35. I'm a "real" Green who is voting

against Bush via Kerry. And still hoping against hope that Kerry has read my letter to him. *l*

[Hippo_Tron]

54. There are very few Greens here...

Most are just freepers trying to cause trouble. There are some legitimate ones and often have quite insightful posts about Kerry and the Democratic party's faults, GreenPartyVoter being a good example. It's pretty easy to spot a troll when they post one-liners and have only a few posts.

That said, my view on the subject. I like John Kerry and I think he will make a great president. Some on this board to not. I could argue with a Green voter for hours about why Kerry would be a good president, just like I could argue with a Republican voter for hours as to why Kerry would be a good president. Instead I'll say this...

You may feel that we get stuck with the lesser of the two evils every time. However, this election is VERY different. Short of a miracle, BOTH houses of congress will be controlled by Republicans in 2004. The administration has torn apart the constitution more than any other administration and is pushing through a right wing extremeist agenda that no administration has ever been able to do before. There are no checks and ballances, other than the senate fillibuster, and there is no balance of power. This country can't take four more years of Bush. We need to restore SOME sanity to Washington if we ever hope for a progressive agenda.