A depressing email exchange with a (former?) friend...

[Zhade]

This is with a guy I used to work with, who in all other respects is a great guy - great father, funny, smart, socially more liberal than not. It really upsets me to see him believing this bullshit!

For context, he's the first person at work that I came out to as being bisexual, and he never treated me any different than before. That's why this is so depressing - he should know better, and he doesn't.

(My messages are in red, his in blue. The original email sent was the transcript of Gore's recent, awesome speech.)



We lost a lot when the fascists who have taken over the Republican party stole the election from this man. A lot.


Not to split hairs, but according to his speech on December 13, 2000 "I strongly disagree with the court's decision, I accept it. I accept the finality of this outcome which will be ratified next Monday in the Electoral College. And tonight, for the sake of our unity as a people and the strength of our democracy, I offer my concession." He conceeded before the Supreme Courts decesion was ratified, that means the election wasn't stolen, Gore admitted he was defeated. That was, and still is a very admirable thing to do.

from http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/algore2000concessionspeech.html


He later retracted the concession, because it became clear something was very wrong with the vote count.

Read www.gregpalast.com to see more on how the election most definitely was stolen, including the successful efforts on the part of Katherine Harris (FL SoS and co-chair of bush's FL campaign) and Clay Roberts to have 90,000+ "felons" wiped from the voter rolls, pre-election. Most of those "felons" were either 1) innocent or 2) from states where their right to vote is reinstated once they serve their time and pay all fines.

I know it's difficult to accept that a stolen presidential election could happen here, but it did (and has happened before, in the 1800s - in Florida, even). The Supreme Court decision was not a valid one. Not all votes were counted. Even the media later conceded that Gore won (but buried the news in the back pages, where it was largely ignored thanks to the tragic plane crash in Rockaway, NY in November 2001).


So can I now retract my resignation because the person who made the descion that my time off would be voluntary termination is now gone? That argument carries no weight with me. You are correct that all of the votes weren't counted. They only recounted the counties that could change the outcome, not the whole state. Even then, had the recount continued Bush would have gained more votes then Gore (Wall Street Journal and New York Time articles). Would you really have wanted Gore in Office on 9-11? Yes, it still would have happened. Bin Laden was attacking what he tought was a country that wouldn't react because of how Clinton reacted to previous Terror attacks.

I will now open a huge can of worms by saying that I support the War in Iraq. I believe it was/is just and called for. One of you email outlined "War Crimes", all of which Saddam is personally guilty of either commiting or ordering.

I may not have the websites to "Backup" the "facts" I lean towards, but if I spend some time researching I could.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but remember both "sides" spin the truth to support their agenda. I believe in looking at both sides and forming my own opinion. Shunning or refusing to listen to someones commentary or reporting of events based on their party affiliation, coworkers opinon or who else is published on the same website does not costitute an "Informed Decision"

Please continue to email me, as I will read what you send. But remember I am of the opposite opinon.


Why do you support an illegal war and occupation? I'd be very curious to know the reasons. Keep in mind that the original justification (WMD) was proven to be a lie, and bush himself stated he could not claim that Hussein had ties to 9/11 or al Qaeda.


How is it Illegal when Iraq would not comply to UN Resolution 1441? That France and Germany both agreed to? See a time line of Resolutions here: http://www.casi.org.uk/info/scriraq.html#2002

Also a time line of events from CNN.com, ABC.com, NPR.org and
stategypage.com :

2002 November 8 - UN Security Council unanimously adopt Resolution 1441 outlining an enhanced inspection regime for Iraq's disarmament to be conducted by the U.N. Monitoring, Verification, and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

Text of Resolution is at http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/scres/2002/res1441e.pdf

2002 November 13 - Iraq accepts U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441 and informs the UN Secretary General that it will work with the resolution.

Jan. 16, 2003 In their first significant discovery, U.N. weapons inspectors find 12 warheads able to carry chemical weapons

February 2003 The United States went before the United Nations to give
evidence of why they should take action against Iraq, or more particularly Saddam Hussein. (Feb. 12, 2003 Weapons inspectors announce they have discovered that Iraq has illegal rockets that exceed a maximum range set down in the 1991 Gulf war cease-fire
agreement)

27 February 2003 Iraq agrees to disarm their Samoud II missiles.

17 March 2003 United States President George W. Bush gave Saddam Hussein an ultimatum. Either Saddam Hussein and his sons leave Iraq within 48 hours or the United States will pursue military action against Iraq.

19 March 2003 The United States and other coalition forces started Operation Iraqi Freedom in an effort to remove Saddam Hussein and his regime from power.

20 March 2003 The United States fired missiles at a bunker in Baghdad, where it was suspected that Saddam Hussein and other military officials were located. Later during the day Saddam Hussein appeared to be alive and Iraq fired six missiles into Kuwait. In the evening U.S> and British ground troops entered Iraq,while more targets were bombed in Baghdad.


As far as your other points: the invasion of a country that posed us no threat - which was known at the time (hell, even I knew, and I'm no rocket scientist) - is illegal under both international law and our own. It's very similar to what Hitler did with Poland.

People used to think Viet Nam was legal, too. They were wrong on that as well.

My advice: try reading some non-U.S. news sources (The Independent, The Guardian - hell, anything not owned by the Big Six that own most American media, take your pick) for some different views. Ignore Fox "News" and the increasingly bad CNN. Read up on Scott Ritter. Read about how the Patriot Act is gutting our rights. Google "Valerie Plame" and "Niger forgeries". Think logically - if we were lied to about WMDs, and led to believe that Hussein had a connection to 9/11, what else have they lied to us about?

When you've done that, maybe we'll have more of a common ground to discuss these issues. As it is, I've been researching this stuff for three years now, and I just don't have the time to spend trying to convince you of the reality of how fucked this country is right now (and I wasn't a huge fan of Clinton, either, so let's get that one out of the way).

I really think you're a good guy, but I also think you've bought into the lies from the administration, BOTH parties, and the corporate
right-wing-owned media (see www.fair.org and Google "Richard Mellon Scaife" for examples of how such bias makes the 'liberal media' claim an utter joke).

I really, honestly, sincerely mean you no ill will, and hope you'll take my message for what it is intended to be - a suggestion to get educated apart from mainstream spoonfed "news", and fast. Our country needs good people armed with the truth, and I hope to count you as one of them someday.

Probably sounds like I'm being an arrogant prick. I assure you, if it were possible, I would agree with your interpretation of things. I've wanted to be wrong on these things over the past few years so badly that at times it physically hurts. Unfortunately, I have not been, and I've seen many of my predictions - such as things that have happened in Iraq following the invasion - come true. I wish things were going well, and that bush had won the election fairly, and that we didn't invade Iraq on the basis of lies. Sadly, that's not the case.

Best of luck with everything, and I wish you and your family good health and a ton of happiness. :-)



So, maybe I was too hard on him, I don't know. I get so frustrated with people not thinking in this country, and seeing what's right in front of their eyes, that I just don't know what to do some days.

Anyone else know that feeling? I'm guessing a resounding "YES".

[FleshCartoon]

1. Lately...

...I find myself going into all kinds of social and public situations with a big ole chip on my shoulder about Bush, his war, and his war crimes. At the drop of a hat, I'll bring the subject up.

I've always been the kind to respectfully agree to disagree if someone holds different beliefs from mine, but with the political situation in America now, it's just not possible for me to do that anymore.

And I try to wear my "Thought Criminal" shirt everywhere, if it's appropriate to be dressed in jeans and t-shirt.

[Alerter_]

4. if we don't stand up to fascists, people will think torture is okay

It's really at that point.

[maggrwaggr]

10. yes indeed. It's to that point

[mmm]

5. I know what you mean

exactly

[Cornus]

21. Me too

While reading your post I just kept thinking, "That's exactly what I've been doing."

[roguevalley]

2. I know what you feel but at least he said he would read. You have an

opportunity. Just list the sites. List names of people who are good places to go. Hang in there, honey.

[mmm]

3. Frustrating, is it not?

I have lost some friends this year over
this very issue. You gotta stand for what you stand for.

[gratuitous]

6. An unfortunate exchange

Your friend said he is open to what you have to say, although I suspect that may be window dressing. His citation to the UN resolutions, though, could have been an invitation for you to answer that while the UN had outlined an inspection regimen, it was the Bush administration that cut the inspections short and launched the invasion.

Hans Blix never found any of the weapons that the Bush administration said definitely for sure were there (not only Powell, but Rumsfeld and Cheney). Bush's own inspector came back last year and said there was nothing there. So the UN resolution was actually violated by the Bush regime, not Saddam. Blix even stated publicly that he was allowed to go anywhere he wanted to look. Bush's inspector (whose name escapes me for the moment) didn't even have to contend with any of Saddam's alleged chicanery, and he still came up empty.

In his pre-war press conference, Bush stated categorically and unconditionally that he would go to the UN Security Council for a second resolution, if that's what the public and the nations of the world wanted. He broke that promise, notified the UN that the invasion was about to be launched, and attacked.

Your last email was held a nice tone. I hope your friend hasn't cut you off forever. There's lots to share with him.

[Eloriel]

8. Not only that, but if the U.N. had wanted us (or anyone) to

enforce those resolutions, they'd have approved one saying so -- they didn't. Why? Because there was no imminent threat! I've always said it didn't pass the common sense test: not even Saddam's neighbors were concerned about him!

but remember both "sides" spin the truth to support their agenda. I believe in looking at both sides and forming my own opinion.

This is such bull. I hate when I see that argument. It's similar to "the truth is (usually) somewhere in the middle." No, for most things there is an objective truth which has nothing to do with either side, but I don't see the left "spinning" the truth anything like what I see in lies friom the right -- except, of course, when Congressional and other leaders (e.g., media) validate the RW untruths by not bothering to confront them, playing along instead, and they do that with considerable regularity.

[maggrwaggr]

11. he couldn't "disarm" because there was nothing to "disarm"

"give up your WMD's!"

"I don't have any!"

"Bullshit! Give 'em up or we'll invade you!"

"I told you, I don't have any of them!"

"You're a liar!"

That's basically what Bush did.

[seabeyond]

12. lets not forget saddam gave up a while prior

wanted family out and 2 million. bushie wanted to be a cowboy though.

oh and saddam was going to throw in his people would work with bush

[Zhade]

16. See reply #15.

He's bought the lie that "Saddam wouldn't let the inspectors in".

THAT'S how out of touch the guy is with reality.

[seabeyond]

7. didnt talk to a friend for longest time. called her tonight

told her i was mad at her religion. was going to demonstrate in front of her church. she is a one issue voter, with an 18 year old son, and 21 yr daughter,. draft em i say.

she tells me they will go to canada. no i say, you voted for bush your children are the first to go. you cant get them out, shame on you

she finally confessed didnt watch news. of course you dont i told her, you shouldnt vote if you dont even know what is up

an hour and half, me telling so much she left confused. yet, cause of the one issue. forget the 30,000 innocent dieing over there. gotta save the fetus. couldnt come up with a validation on allowing rape, incest and mothers health, ...........

it is craziness. simply.

like a poster above, i am always come back to bush, even when i say no no no dont talk this

[Eloriel]

9. If you ever talk to her again, tell her that going to canada is out

thanks to some sort of agreement the two countries signed which will prevent draft dodgers from taking refuge there. This was done a couple of years ago, which of course makes me think they had a draft planned all along.

[westsidexview]

13. the art of creating the second best

politics has been called the art of creating the second best. maybe your relationship with your shallow thinking friend can be salvaged to second best status. i am not in your shoes because i live in indianapolis and this is police action shooting city. any talk of political sanity could be hazardous to your health in this town. but i do grieve at the passing of the america i thought would always be. america's strength is its people and its values and not its military might. america's military might is due to our amazing people and our system of letting people do their own thing for the benefit of everybody. i am troubled by bush's new reich and not so much because of bush but because of my seemingly brain-dead countrymen who let america pass on by without even a whimper. keep true to your ideals because in the end intelligence is all that keeps us together(that's why bush is so scary).

[Wapsie B]

14. Sounds like my freeper brother,

just a tad more civil. I know that feeling. I've got a brother, sister, her family, and dad who are just like that. They'd vote repug no matter what. I've yet to see any of these family conversions that others report here. To fill you in on how to the right daddy is, he was overjoyed when JFK was shot. Same with Lennon.

[Zhade]

15. Um, actually, it's even worse than I thought.

Now I KNOW I didn't go too hard on him. Listen to this shit!

I gave you a link to UN Resolution 1441. THAT is the reason we invaded Iraq. Hussein would not let the Inspectors do their job, Inspect. When the UN kept extending the deadline they kept weaking themselves. We (the U.S.) took a stand, hold Iraq to the agreement that was made and was unanimously adopted by the Security Council (including Iraq).

As far as the non-U.S. news, why would I believe news from countries that openly bash our country. Their agenda is to create more "haters". I do listen/read News from all souces and make my decisions based on what I decifer to be truth.

If one listens/reads only "Left Wing" sources then all other sources will be "Right Wing", and vice-versa.

I will tell you this, I do believe, no I KNOW that there is a Liberal slant on main stream media. I know this because I have heard both sides and it is obvious.

Yeah...much as I like the guy, I've got no time for this kind of blatant ignorance. Sucks to lose the guy as a friend, but I can't even pretend to suffer this kind of illogical, brainwashed thinking.

Sad.

[grasswire]

17. ask him why...

..if there is a liberal slant to the media....why the Republicans have killed the Fairness Doctrine THREE times?

If the media is biased against conservatism why have they actively spoiled the only measure that would give them equal time?

[DemBones DemBones]

18. That is BRILLIANT!!! I am going to use that

reply every chance I get!

[ludwigb]

19. Quick point on 1441

1441 did not authorize force in any way. This rather obvious point is not pointed out enough in these debates. Do a google for the resolution and send it to your friend. Ask him how this document legitimizes force. If he still disputes it, point out how the Secretary General himself said the invasion was in violation of international law. Ask your friend whether he thinks the US is setting a good precedent here (in addition to basing their case on WMD lies).

In addition, his point on non-US media is extremely weak. Is it the BBC's goal to "create more haters"? Ask him if he can honestly imagine a case where the US was wrong. Would listening to foreign media really be so idiotic in that case?

[hexola]

20. Still trying to figure out the Bi-sexual angle...

...For context, he's the first person at work that I came out to as being bisexual...

Not sure what "context" this adds...other than your friend probably thinks you are a flake or a pervert...

[Zhade]

23. Oh, the context I intended was that this kind of thinking surprised me.

He accepted my sexual orientation quite readily, so I assumed (there's a mistake right there) that he was more open-minded than to listen to Faux News and the like.

[Nlighten1]

22. I had similar disscussions with a "liberal" friend of mine.

He hates Republicans yet he reads all of the Conservative websites and believes the nonsense. He seems to always send me links to articles on the Weakly Standard website.

I gave up. He seems to think that it doesn't matter what political leanings you have, if you write an article and post it on the web it is true.

Oy

[graham67]

24. Imagine having this sort of exchange...

with your own mother. The last straw was my mother saying this about Abu Ghraib torture, "The media is biased. Let's see them play Nick Berg's beheading video over and over again". My mom thinks I'm a traitor for protesting this war. I should just support the troops and STFU. It just makes me sick at heart. :cry:

[Zhade]

25. I had a smiliar experience with my dad.

After the "this is scripted" speech/press conference, I called my dad. He asked me what was on my mind. I told him point-blank: "bush is a traitor."

He laughed, said he didn't want to get into a discussion about it. This was after he'd said that he thought "they should have turned the whole area into a parking lot" during Gulf War I (he served in some secret Special Ops capacity in that war).

Later, he told me he was proud of me for speaking out against the war.

So I guess people can come around. He's probably not anywhere close to where I am, mentally, but it's a start!

Hang in there.

:hug: