Animals should be treated humanely - yes, no, or it depends?

[Skip Intro]

Poll question: Animals should be treated humanely - yes, no, or it depends?

Yes, this is in response to the PETA bashing currently ongoing. I really find it hard to believe that the majority of people here at DU, people with whom I find myself in agreement so often, could really be so callous toward other living creatures, so here's this poll.

[sandnsea]

1. Treat fetuses humanely?

They feel pain. The judge said it was irrelevant when considering the rights of the woman. We should have more compassion for a chicken? I'm just saying.

We should do our best under all circumstances to be humane. But there does get to be a point of ridiculousness. PETA seems to get there a little more often than most.

[Djinn]

4. the difference being an animal is a living breathing entity

a fetus is part of the female carrying it.

[sandnsea]

6. The pain isn't relevant?

Or it is. I'm confused. Pain is pain.

[Djinn]

14. so a fetus feels pain does it?

any chance you could enlighten us all as to where you pulled THAT from?

[Yupster]

63. Certainly a fetus feels pain at some point

The argument is when.

My kid was born via Caesarian.

Would anyone in the world argue that a minute before he was born he was not capable of feeling pain, yet a minute later he's crying his head off?

I saw the doctor lining up the sonogram to be careful with his scalpel. I looked at my son's face. Less than two minutes later, I could see his face again when the doctor got to him. There was no quick magical switcheroo. It was the same kid. I was there and saw him.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that my son, while the doctor was cutting in to get him was not capable of feeling pain.

That just seems to me to be a guy covering his ears singing "I can't hear you." No one can be that idealogical.

[Djinn]

68. all babies cry when they are born

whether that's because of "pain" is disputable.

[Yupster]

70. So you really think that a minute before birth,

a baby cannot feel pain?

It just seems hard to believe that anyone could have that belief. You're really not kidding?

[Djinn]

73. I don't have a fully formed opinion on this

I'm just saying no-one knows either way. I find it hard to believe some people are of the opinion than any form of contraception is "killing" let alone abortion...but then again it's a big world we live in.

[Az]

106. Lets say its a grey area (get it grey matter, grey area)

Ok, joking aside. Its not a question of pain itself. Pain without a sentience to recognise it is just a series of neurochemical reactions that occurr within a biological structure. A sample of skin can be shown to have nerve reactions but this does not mean that an entity is feeling pain.

Some time between the development of a fully functional brain and a babies first words consciousness arises within the process. We don't have it pinned down yet but we can make some educated guesses. We know what is necissary for a mind to arise (a developed brain and some time to develop interconnections). So prior to this point there is no real entity to protect or worry about feeling pain.

However once the potential for a mind arises the question shifts to a different point. Where there is no sense there is no pain.

[Yupster]

123. Sorry to stay on this subject, but I can't tell

if you're for real or not.

So the doctor pulls my son out of my wife's womb via Caesarian. And you aren't sure whether the boy can feel pain or not?

Now I'm assuming you understand that the act of pulling him out doesn't change his brain or nervous system. It's the same a minute before birth as an hour after birth.

So,

I'm supposed to believe that you think that a baby a few hours old may or not have the ability to feel pain? You can't be serious. Can you?

Do you not have kids? Have you never spent time around young babies? How can you not know when they're in pain?

I'll just shake my head.

[outinforce]

115. Do You Mean It is Like

A tonsil?

Or an appendix?

Or a tooth?

They, too, are all "part of the female carrying" them.

So are you saying that a fetus is not much different than an appendix -- that it is just one more body part?

[mike1963]

11. I do not believe a fetus feels ANYTHING, including "pain."

...

[AngryAmish]

61. At some point a fetus changes into a baby

Most people accept it at quickening. However, it is clear than a pre-quickening fetus will react to painful stimuli.

[Susang]

72. "most people"

Good thing this isn't an abortion thread or I'd have to call you on that one. "Most people" don't accept any definition of when a fetus becomes a "baby". That's what all the fighting's about, you know, when life begins, etc., etc.,.... To state that most people accept any one definition is simplistic at best.

Now, back to animal rights....!

[AngryAmish]

74. How about it

Now we can discuss the chemtrails rationally at last!

BTW, I think once a young human lives independantly of its mother's blood supply and breathing air one can safely consider it a baby without raising the wrath of anyone not tenured at Princeton.

[Susang]

76. LOL

n/t

[TexasSissy]

110. A nervous system causes entity to feel pain.

Since a fetus near birth has a fully developed nervous system, and responds to stimuli, including touch, it is logical to conclude that it feels pain.

This is different from an embryo, however, which is what a fetus is during the first two or three months after conception, I believe. There is no fully developed nervous system at that time.

[sangh0]

112. That's not true

The existence of a nervous system allows an organism to perceive and react to stimuli, but if there is no consciousness, there is no pain. Pain is a feeling (as opposed to a perception) that requires thought. Without a conscious mind, the stimuli perceived can lead to a reaction, but it won't lead to any "feelings"

[outinforce]

116. Doctors

Doctors have provided sworn testimony that they do.

Where did you receive your medical degree?

[Djinn]

121. Which doctors?

Right to Life ones? there is PLENTY of dispute over this within the medical community - you give me 10 names of doctiors who state that a fetus can "feel" pain - as opposed to just having a nervous sytem reaction - and I'll show you 10 doctors who disagree.

[Misunderestimator]

92. "We should have more compassion for a chicken?"

Rather... We should have the same compassion for an egg.

[TexasSissy]

111. Why is there a choice to be humane to one or the other?

Can't we be humane to both?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. Has somebody seen the Meatrix?

:shrug:

[Lucky Luciano]

3. I voted yes to your poll

I also was one of the more callous posters though. The ASPCA is fine by me, but PETA just loses all their credibility with their antics. PETA has to give more intellectual arguments and show pictures and what not - but they are NOT peaceful and the people they attack are breaking no laws.

[Skip Intro]

5. They do keep the issue topical, tho

And if they do that without breaking laws, I'm all for it. It raises awareness, if nothing else.

[sandnsea]

8. It raises resentment

and ridicule, for the most part. But that they raised awareness, that would be great. They don't. It's "there goes PETA again" and all reasonable minds close.

[Skip Intro]

15. Would we be talking about it otherwise? n/t

[Susang]

71. Not true

If it weren't for PETA's anti-veal campaign of the 80's, few people would be aware of the horrific conditions the calves were/are subjected too. Because of that famous campaign, industry wide changes have resulted in significantly better conditions due to customers boycotting veal as a direct result of PETA's actions.

Then we could talk about how their campaign against Avon & Gillette raised awareness about cosmetic testing on animal that also resulted in massive industry changes. Changes, I might add, that were instigated by customer demand that was a direct result of PETA's aggressive advertising campaign against cosmetic animal testing.

All reasonable minds do not close. Apparently, only reactionary ones do. Try to see past the shock tactics and pay attention to the message. Just because you don't like the way they say it doesn't mean the message isn't accurate or true.

[Lucky Luciano]

9. Fine, but if they trespass, then they are breaking laws.

If they dump paint on people wearing fur (This is unsubstantiated - I am just trusting another poster), then they are breaking laws.

[sangh0]

114. Martin Luther King Jr broke laws also.

"Breaking the law" is not necesarily a condemnation

[Lucky Luciano]

127. Ok, but if a woman I am with happens to be wearing fur/fake fur

and out of nowhere some PETA person attacks her in any way shape or form, I will show no restraint and I will also probably end up in jail with 25-Life sentence. I have not been in a fight since I was 11 years old, but I am very strong, cruel, and merciless when provoked - when not provoked I am a very nice guy though.

[MasonJar]

7. Who says we have more rights than other creatures that live on

this planet? Just because we have a thumb?

[outinforce]

117. Because WE Are Human Beings

and they are not.

Human Beings always have more rights than living things which are not human beings.

Human beings have the ultimate power -- the power of life and death -- over those things which are not human beings.

I think it is called the power to choose.

[bemildred]

10. Animals that are badly treated are full of free radicals. nt

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

12. Timely post

There was a news story on my local news tonight about a woman in east Texas who was found to have 350 dogs in her house in wire cages. She was running a puppy mill. There was feces everywhere, the dogs' paws were bleeding from only walking on wire cages for so long, there was one dog who looked like its tongue was hanging out until you realized it's lower jaw was missing.

The conditions were so bad, CPS took away the one little boy living there.

I wish anyone who thinks animals aren't worth our protection and care could have seen those dogs. I am not normally one prone to have my heartstrings pulled or anything, I kinda feel like I've seen it all, but this footage brought me to tears, instantly. Especially the dog with its lower jaw missing. The Dallas SPCA has had to RENT A WAREHOUSE and set up a temporary facility just for all these dogs. A lot of them will be put down immediately because they are in such bad shape, but some can be adopted out.

The woman was just screaming at officers to get off her property and screaming at the news crews etc. I don't normally say this about ANYONE, but if there's a hell, I hope there's a special place in it...

[Kali]

22. animal hoarding

is a recognized disorder. She is ill.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

25. I dunno

she was making $300 per puppy and was selling around 30 a month. $9000 a month.

She has a disorder alright. Pure unadulterated greed.

[Kali]

35. didn't catch the part about

she was selling pupies - who would buy from that kind of situation? And if they were that unhealthy she couldn't have been getting to many live litters. Sounds pretty messed up. I have a hard time with these stories too. Then again I think they are ripe for sensationalism...

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

37. Yeah

she was selling them. I don't think I mentioned that in my first post, so you didn't miss it. It was a reported part of the story.

Yeah she gets the money because she'll get one litter ready for whomever is coming out to see them and she'll bathe THOSE puppies.

People are suckers. My brother paid $400 for an English bulldog puppy from a puppy mill that didn't even turn out to be full-blooded English bulldog. He was punked.

[Kali]

40. never

pay for a purebred - first you are asking to cause these kind of situations (I know there are MANY MANY legit dog breeders out there - don't bother replying - its not even my main point) then you have the expense, the congenital problems, and worst of all they seem like they are allways getting ripped off right out of peopls yards! Nobody would steal my dog. Weezle the UGLY. Gotta get a pic for all you folks that post your damn cute kittens. Weez will scare the heck out of everybody!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

47. Oh hell no

I have ONLY owned rescue dogs from shelters and rescue organizations. And I act as a "foster mom" for rescue dogs awaiting adoption for one organization.

Actually the rescue dog I have now is quite cute! You couldn't tell it when I got her, but she cleaned up darn good!

And our two cats are rescue cats too.

I've never owned a non-rescue animal in my life. My parents didn't either.

[Kali]

57. I live off a county road and an interstate

we get a lot of dumped animals. Weez is a decendant of one, one of the cats, Bighead is a dump. One begins to run out of names after a while. Currently we are at one of the lowest points in a long long time only 2 of each. And the boss, Watson. (Band G macaw)

oh yeah forgot been seeing a yellow striped longhair around the shed. Hope its not a mama.

[ChrisW]

95. Terrible story

Makes me sick to see animals treated like that. Animals are not humans but there is no reason not to treat them fairly. If you have a pet, you have a responsibility to train, feed, take car of and love that animal.

[yella_dawg]

120. I actually lived next door to a situation very similar to that.

When the wind was right, the smell would gag you. I finally gave up calling SPCA and the Sheriff. Outside the city limits, there is little you can do.

The operator would take a puppy to a professional groomer and show it to potential buyers off-site. I strongly suspect she sold my Siamese tomcat too.

I finally moved in frustration over my inability to do anything about the atrocity.

[DBoon]

13. Except cockroaches

While technically animals, these vile and loathsome creatures deserve to suffer and die!

Yes, I've lived in a few cockroach infested apartments

[bemildred]

17. And ticks, and mosquitos. nt

[Yupster]

65. I just rescued two

crawdads from the HEB Crawfish boil.

They are kings of my fishtank and doing fine. One already shed.

I did it about five years ago and one lived about two years. Then one day he shed his shell, turned over and died. I was surprised because I thought shedding would be a sign of good health.

Anyway, he got two years more than all the other crayfish that were about to be boiled. It bugs me how badly they are kept before boiling. I realize they aren't the brightest creatures in the pond, but it still seems we could treat them better.

We also rescued our dog from a shelter, and he's horrible. Scared to death and bites. He just turned one. Hope he mellows with age.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. And termites and chiggers and lice and...

[ott]

16. Believe it

People throw fits when placed outside of their comfort zones. The reality of many people's dietary preference can be a touchy issue.

You wouldn't beat a puppy to get a steak dinner, but you cause > pain to "livestock" every time you drive up for a hamburger.

It's happier to ignore reality and blame PETA for feeling bad about what sunk in.

[Kali]

23. not necessarily

not if killed correctly and raised humanely

[Djinn]

24. that being the rub

they're not.

Unless you're getting your meat from organic butchers the chances are about 99% that your meat is coming from intensive farms and abbatoirs - go visit one they are by no means humane, and that's coming from a meat fan!

[Kali]

33. pretty much true

though there are efforts being made google "Temple Grandin" She works with mainstream facilities too and has had a real impact.

[TexasMexican]

78. I dont ignore reality

I see nothing wrong with cows being butchered to feed me, as long as they are prepared properly.

I wouldnt want to get too many diseases from them.

[theoceansnerves]

18. i always find it sad

and a bit telling when a peta bashing thread comes up, about once every three weeks i guess? but the one that is currently going is pretty damn tame compared to what they're usually like! they're usually only second to gun threads for inflammatory remarks, and number one in my opinion for insensitive remarks :(

[Lorien]

62. Yep

some people are so self centered, self important and fearful of being a "bleeding heart" that they view all other species (and probably other human beings) with complete contempt. They have that simple minded, * like black and white notion of "us vs. them"; "I care about people-NOT animals" is something I hear again and again (they really don't care about either). It's not either/ or. If you love one of your kids, does that mean you don't give a shit about the other? By their reasoning it does.

I steer far away from people who kill animals for sport or scoff at those who care about the humane treatment of other species. It is well documented that the vast majority of serial killers started out torturing and killing animals (my dad is a shrink at a State prison, and will back me up on this), while those that have shown compassion towards animals as children make the best spouses and parents. I'll stick with the latter.

[Kali]

19. here goes

Huge leap from treating animals humanely to PETA's agenda.

[Lenape85]

20. My take on it

I personally am a vegan, but I still think PETA is insane. Yes I believe pets should not be abused nor animals tested for cosmetics, but I still realize that if we don't test medicine on animals, we are less likely to find cures for deadly diseases.

[Wonk]

21. Buddy, my beagle, say yes unless the animals in question are cats, birds,

rabbits or squirrels. Then they make good chew toys, particularly while they're still kicking.

That's just his opinion, though, and he's only a dog...

I, however, voted yes in this poll.

[DBoon]

29. My dog kills his prey "humanely"

Grabs it by the neck and with a good shake the squirrel or pigeon is gone. Doesn't get into playing "chew toy" while they are still kicking.

[Cleita]

26. For those who find PETA too extreme.

My favorite animal rights charity is ALDF or the Animal Legal Defense Fund, 127 Fourth Street, Petaluma, CA 94952. These are a group of lawyers who take perpetrators of animal abuse to court and who try to change bad animal rights laws when they can. They send periodical newsletters telling you what they are doing for a contribution. They, IMHO, actually get more results working quietly in the courts than PETA does with all the loud publicity

[Lucky Luciano]

27. There you go.

I can support a group like that.

[MrSlayer]

28. I suggest you watch Penn & Teller's Bullshit episode on PETA.

They expose them for the psychos they are.

As far as animals go, sure you should treat them humanely. I don't see any reason to kick your dog or light kittens on fire. Animals for food is not inhumane, it's necessary.

[DBoon]

30. Even food animals should be treated well.

Not disabled or deformed or sickened, not chained in overcrowded conditions, not drugged with hormones or antibiotics.

If this raises the price of meat somewhat, my philosophy is that meat was always intended to be a flavoring agent, and not a main course. It should be eaten sparingly combined with grains and vegatables.

[Susang]

75. Penn & Teller are entertainers

And Penn Jillette has an extremist psycho streak of his own, or weren't you aware? He's a crazed libertarian, you know. Having been to a Libertarian convention or two, I can attest to how crazy those bastards are. So I'm supposed to believe someone who belongs to a psycho organization who tells me how psycho another organization is? See how easy it is to label someone you disagree with psycho?

Sorry, but you see, Jillette's agenda is that he is against almost all government regulation, so he would naturally be against anything PETA was for. Hardly an unbiased source, wouldn't you say?

[MrSlayer]

81. They showed the arsonist teaching members how to make bombs.

Everything they showed looked real enough to me, it wasn't made up. It was all in the PETA members own words and actions. Also, I don't see Penn burning down buildings, destroying property and physically intimidating people in the name of Libertarianism. He might be crazy but he made very good points and the show was quite sane. Unless you count the part where they had the chickens walking around eating KFC with them which was hilarious. PETA may have some good points they don't go about presenting them in a respectable manner and the violent sub-sections are terrorists as far as I'm concerned.

[Susang]

109. Using Ted Nugent as an expert hardly makes me respect their message

Also, it was not PETA that P&T accused of arson. They accused them of funneling money to an organization that has been accused of arson, after examining PETA's tax returns. Big difference, don't you think? PETA is not ALF, no matter how you may want to believe that they are the same. The Humane Society of America has attended animal rights conferences with both organizations, are they guilty of terrorism as well?

Nor is PETA the the Animal Defense League, whose Dr. Jerry Vlasak made many of the comments on violence that were featured on the show that you are trusting of. He is also the spokesperson for the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, thus the connection to PETA. Just because they agree with the committee's stance on animal testing does not mean they agree with his views personally.

Also, one of their "experts" was a member of this organization, the Center for Consumer Freedom, a shill for the processed food industry. But, since you did your own research and you know so much about this, I'm sure you already knew that, didn't you?

So, there. I've done some of the research for you. I am quite familiar with Penn and Teller's act and politics and like them most of the time. But often, their person objectives cause them to make bizarre leaps of logic that they would pounce on someone else mercilessly for. The show is produced for entertainment purposes and is not journalism, so it is not subject to the same standards. Infotainment can be fun, but you can't take everything it tells you at face value. Not when radio talk show hosts, industry shills and bad rock stars are featured as "experts". Oh, and as far as Penn being physically intimidating for libertarianism, he is. I don't know if you've ever met the man (I have), but he's gigantic, very physically intimidating and he knows it.

BTW, I am not a member of PETA and don't even agree with all of their platform. I just have been aware of them since their inception and know the impact they have had on animal rights in this country. I also know many animal rights activists, some of them on the violent radical fringe, none of whom are in PETA. They scare the crap out of me and believe it or not, they find PETA to be far too tame and non-violent in their tactics. That's why groups like the Animal Defense League and ALF exist, because PETA wasn't enough for people like this.

[AngryAmish]

31. Animals get rights when they have responsibilities

Animals should not be treated cruelly because it makes the human who does so less of a human. But independently an animal does not have rights. They are property.

[Cleita]

32. Animals in nature have the same rights as we do. If they didn't

God would have put up fences. They should never be treated cruelly just because we can and do have the upper hand.

[AngryAmish]

34. Really.

Animals have a right to vote. Animals have a right to bear arms. Or marry whomever they want. BS. Animals are lesser creatures than humans. Wild animals should be given every consideration (especially if they taste good) but once they come in conflict with human health or welfare they must give way. Otherwise it is a total classist view that persons who live near animals (ie ignorant country folk -from that point of view) must give way to some anthropomorphic quasi-noble savage myth of the goodness of a beast. I don't buy it.

[Cleita]

39. Attitudes like your's will be the undoing of our planet.

Do you think when the Creator created all and every part of His creation, that He doesn't love and value all He has created, just certain destructive apes because they know how to build things and watch television? Oh yes they vote too.

I live in the country. I used to live in the forest, way deep in the forest. I watched the daily struggle for food that the animals endured, to raise families, only to have their young eaten by hungry predators who also had young they had to feed.

We are no better than they.

[AngryAmish]

46. Would you kill kill a bear trying to kill your child?

Of course you would. Why? Does a bear have a greater right to life than your child? Of course it does not.

Do you give heartworm pills to your dog? If not than you are one crappy pet owner. Do heartworms have a right to live? Just like us?

If you caught a tapeworm would you try to get rid of it? A tapeworm will not kill you. We are not better than they.

Please.

[Cleita]

54. Excuse me, but I would kill you if you tried to harm my child.

Oh I have done my share of ridding vermin. I like to think I do it humanely. Fortunately, the only problem I ever had with a bear was a rather nice sow with cubs, who presented no danger until hunting season, when someone shot her, wounded her and she did turn into one mean bear after that. The rangers who present themselves as wiser than anyone of course killed her.

[AngryAmish]

59. You would kill me because if I tried to harm your child

your child would have a greater right to life than I. What I am trying to say to you there are hierarchies to compassion and care for various living beings on this planet. I put human I care about in the tightest circle, than animals I care about then other animals. I would not kill a spawning game fish or a cow, because they will provide for me in the future (and if them in particular than the species as a whole). But I will be damned if I will not kill every gobie I could get my hands on or any other nuisance animal.

[Cleita]

66. I don't know what to say.

I find killing anything, taking it's life rather sad, because it will never be able to be part of the earth again. I know when one has to kill. It's part of nature, however, farming animals for food without regard for the pain you put them through is a mandate from Hell as far as I'm concerned.

Right now I would love to shoot every coyote in sight,especially since they picked off a couple of my pets, but the coyote has as much right to live where I live, if not more so than I do. With encroaching development, the coyotes will be poisoned, trapped and pushed back into the remaining wilderness. I hate who we are right now. If you want to justify how you live, fine. I can't. I know all the BS rationalization is suspect and most likely wrong.

I truly believe it's our attitude toward animals as disposable property that has lead to our attitude of underclasses of human beings as disposable property, especially in the military. Hey, let's
have a dumb war. Those first generation Americans of immigrant parents are disposable.

[AngryAmish]

67. I am the first generation of immigrant parents

It is of course bullshit to pull a victim card in this sort of discussion. But I do not consider myself or any of my siblings or cousins disposable either. My entire point is no human being is disposable, and to subordinate the good of humans to the good of animals is wrong.

[Misunderestimator]

94. So, at one point in our not too distant past, women were lesser creatures

than man, because they could not vote? Ah, I see.

[Vladimir]

96. With all due respect...

look, I know I am a man and as such on thin ice here, but - I think this is the wrong conclusion to draw. Universal sufferage ultimately came about because women and minorities and so on are human. Animals aren't.

[Misunderestimator]

97. With reciprocating respect...

I was responding the post by AngryAmish which said, in part: "Animals have a right to vote. Animals have a right to bear arms. Or marry whomever they want. BS. Animals are lesser creatures than humans."

He DID compare the right to vote to being human. And in many countries, women still do not have a right to vote.

I agree that Animals aren't Human. That does not mean that they are LESSER than we.

[Vladimir]

98. Fair enough

I guess the can of worms I was opening (and in my less polite post lower down in the thread) is that all too often I hear the following reasoning: "You denying animal rights is like when they denied equal rights to blacks and women!" I don't much care for it...

[Vladimir]

83. Damn straight n/t

[Valerie5555]

38. Maybe only if females in Islamic nations are treated humanely

(just kidding, since no animal should ever be unneccessarily harmed) but it is true that practices such as "female genitalia mutilation," and all the poop regimes like the Taliban had pulled was far from "humane" too.



On edit forcing young girls to marry at NINE years of age or even FOURTEEN is also far from humane too.

[Djinn]

41. and the relevance is??

there are plenty of men in the world not treated humanely either - talk about off on a tangent.

BTW - before going on about FGM and Islam you might want to find the bit in the Koran where it is advocated (hint, it isn't) and that FGM is a cultural leftover that pre-dates Islam in the middle east and parts of Africa (where it is still practiced by communities that have NEVER been Muslims)

There is a difference between what Islam advocates and what people who claim to be Muslims advocate.

[Cleita]

45. Well, I have to agree with Val on this.

More women and animals are mistreated on this planet as of this day, than the men who are also mistreated. There are mistreated men, just not as many and manifold as the women. What is done to the animals is worse.

[Valerie5555]

51. Aside from things like conscription and even dare I say it male

circumcision, which I felt any guy ought to undergo, when he's old enough to decide for himself, I dare and defy you to name one particulary harrowing example of "male gender oppression."


Come on, I'm waiting. :D

[Djinn]

56. in other words

apart from the things I mentioned here - including something I think should happen to all men! LOL

[Cleita]

42. Well unless those ladies have responsibilties like their menfolk,

they are only property, or er was that a couple of posts up about animals.

[Valerie5555]

44. Well in the Moslem societies women and girls were viewed as nothing more

than "property" or "chattels," too.

[Cleita]

48. Don't just pin that on moslem societies. There are many others that

never heard of Mohammed that are treated as poorly. We aren't doing that well here in America. As a Canadian you must be pretty upset how your women are treated by the men too.

[Kali]

49. excuse me

but that happens in so-called christian societies, including this one until fairly recently

[Djinn]

52. And you might want to look up

the prevalence of FGM (or lack of) in Afghanistan too.

Your statement that in "Moslem societies women and girls were viewed as nothing more" is total crap, SOME Muslim societies (Afghanistan ONLY under the Taliban, Saudi, parts of Yemen) but then there are places like Lebanon, Iraq, and the most populous Islamic nation, Indonesia where women are NOT viewed as anything of the sort.

Look up the current PM of Indonesia some time.

As for chattels - take a look at some of the fundie Christian sects in the US while you're at it. Stop spouting RW anti-Muslim tripe without checking the facts

[Valerie5555]

55. There were things like FGM in Yemen and Saudi too.

eom.

[Djinn]

58. Yes so?

what's your point? I said that they were two repressive nations towards women - but you're totally wrong that this applies to MUSLIM nations. Read my post re Indonesia et al. SHit read anything on the subject

[Valerie5555]

60. Okay so how many FEMALE MP's does Indonesia have and how many female MM's

(or members of the majlis, or Iran's governing body) Iran has?????????????????????????????

[Djinn]

69. well they have a female PRIME MINISTER

but I must be wrong Sukarniputri must really be a man in drag because your knowledge of Islam is clearly so HUGE and as you've stated in ALL Muslim nations women are chattels.

Any comment on Christian communities in Africa that practice FGM? or are they just evil muslims pretending to be Christians.

[Vladimir]

84. I was waiting for that

so we have now formed the equivalence between women and animals, have we? Good going.

[Vladimir]

119. On second thought, I withdraw that comment n/t

[IndianaGreen]

43. Wait until you find out that God is a cat and that she is pissed

We are animals too! We are the result of random chance. We were not created, nor are we special. The Bible story about Man's Creation is bullshit. Man created God into his own image.

[Kali]

50. heh heh

good one

[Valerie5555]

53. God could be a dog for all I know, since "dog" is "god" spelled backwards,

woof, woof, arf, arf, woof, arf,

[Vladimir]

85. But by that argument

why should we give a shit? Its not like animals have any concept of caring for other species. If we really are no different, then why bother with these abstract things like rights at all?

What makes us different is not that we were 'created', which we weren't, but that we have eveloved a fairly unique set of abilities which like it or not place us several orders of magnitude up the evolutionary chain than any other animal. The difference between me and a chimp may be 1% of DNA, but that 1% is also the difference between studying physics and hopping around trees.

[SOteric]

64. Sure they should be treated humanely, - but

people can't often be bothered to treat each other humanely. I'm not sure there's much holding out of hope for the beasties.

[quinnox]

77. I'm a cat lover so

I picked the one where cute, fuzzy animals should be treated well, but as for cows and chickens they should be treated to a standard so that they yield good tasting meat.

[Angelus]

79. Yes...they should be treated humanely...but...

They're here for my consumption, like cows and pigs. I am a being that is above animals, and for that, I get to do with them what I want to do...whether it's making them into hamburgers or frying up some bacon on the stove.

They should, however, be treated humanely. I wouldn't go out and torture any animal or shoot it with no intent to kill just to watch it squirm. I think there should be a code of ethics to follow when dealing with animals that are going to be used for consumption.

NOw...give me some chicken damnit! I'm hungry!

[Delano]

80. Choice #1 with the qualifier...

...animals are not as aware of what is happening as a person, and it is possible to slaughter them humanely.

Bad conditions and inhumane/unsanitary slaughter practices in many factory farms is a real problem, IMO.

[RebelOne]

82. To the those who voted no just goes to show

that you have no compassion toward any living being.

[Solon]

86. I would say that all should be treated humanely....

and furthermore, I also oppose animal testing, even for medicinal purposes, of species that display the traits of sentience.

[Vladimir]

87. Which species are these?

are we talking primates, or... ?

[Solon]

99. List of Species...

The Great Apes (Chimpanzee, Bonobos, the Gorillas, and Orangutan, also Dolphins, Crows, Elephants, and a few other species that I can't think of right now.

[Vladimir]

100. So even if research on primates

was the only way to cure Alzhaimers or a similar ilness(as many doctors I know will harp on about), even then you would be opposed?

[Solon]

101. Well, there are moral problems there as well...

even if they are the ONLY way, the problem would be, could you torture a creature that is aware, conciously, that it is alive. Worse can you kill it, this is a problem that, to be honest, I feel I am not qualified to answer. It has been demonstrated that Primates are self aware, they know they are alive, can feel pain, and may even have abstract and forethought. Is it moral, or ethical, to use such animals in experiments that could kill them?

[Vladimir]

102. Honest answer? Yes

Part of it is that I don't understand how we can draw the line at primates - it seems to me that if we accept Chimps as self-aware and so on, then it becomes much less obvious which animals truly aren't self aware, and which ones we just haven't tested well enough.

[Solon]

104. Well the mirror test is pretty conclusive...

it has been demonstrated, with some consistancy, that certain animals, most notably, Great Apes, Dolphins, and other Orcas can recognize themselves in mirrors. Also, apparently they are capable of abstract thought, creativity, and tool making, and even language. The question is, what is so unique about humans that we separate ourselves so much from other animals?

[Vladimir]

105. Ah the language thing I don't know

if you are referring to the sign language testing that was done with primates, that's hotly disputed to say the least. But I take your wider point - what I would say to you is that if we really aren't that different, then why should we be interested in the right of other species? As far as I know, primates living in the wild don't particularly concern themselves with the well-being of other species.

[Solon]

107. Not entirely true...

Dolphins have been know to help other mammals and other land animals in reaching the surface to breath, also Elephants have been know to help Wildabeasts and other herd animals out of mud pits and also has been know to protect them from predators. There was also the famous case of a young boy who fell into a primate habitat in a city zoo, forget which one, happened last year I think, and was protected by one female primate until the zookeepers arrived. All of these are examples of behaviors that do not aid in the survival of the species, contrasting with protecting your own young, and they also happen, in most cases, in the wild, without undue influence of humans.

ON EDIT: The jury is still out on the language capabilities of many animals, however, structured vocalizations have been observed in animals as varied as Dolphins and Elephants.

[Vladimir]

108. Hmmm...

well its certainly food for thought. I will think about what you've said.

[outinforce]

118. What is Your View of Stem Cell Research?

if you don't mind my asking?

[Stockholm]

88. What is humanely? Bag of their head and buggered? n/t

[htuttle]

89. Yes, of course, but I still might eat them from time to time!

And as others have pointed out, 'humanely' may not be a very ambitious goal nowdays, considering how humans have been acting.

How about, 'treat them no worse than a cougar would'?

[buddhamama]

90. humanely, always

i am not surprised to find callousness toward animals,
or the belief that kindness and humanity should be afforded only to the cute and cuddle companions we'd take into our homes.

our treatment of people is no better.

i am reminded of a talk Michael Moore gave shortly after "Stupid White Men" was published. Racism was spoken of and he recalled
a scene in Roger and ME in which a woman clubs a rabbit to death.
For yrs, he said, people have approached him about that scene,
"oh, how could you put that in the movie..."
"the poor little bunny..."

The very next scene in the film a mentally unstable black man,dressed in a superman costume and carrying a toy gun, is shot in the street by the police and dies.

He has yet to hear a word against that scene being in the film, but, more importantly no words of anger, pity, compassion or sympathy
for the man who lay dead in the street and the manner in which he was killed.

[David Zephyr]

125. Well Said!

:thumbsup:

[LWolf]

91. Yes, they should be treated humanely.

I think bringing PETA into it will skew your results; without the PETA reference, there wouldn't be much to argue with.

I have no opinion, one way or the other, on PETA, btw.

I do think that life has value. I value it equally. I don't find my species more valuable than any other. I value all life.

Valuing all life means I don't take life unnecessarily. If I do have to take life, I do it quickly, cleanly, and respectfully. There isn't an animal on the planet that doesn't take some life form; we all take life to provide for our own lives. It's the purpose, the attitude, and the method that separate the just from the cruel.

[Misunderestimator]

93. I guess that those who voted "No" enjoy a little veal occassionally...

Not me. I lived near a cattle farm for a few years and saw the conditions of those poor babies... living in tiny little cages, hardly able to move, in the blazing heat. How could anyone not agree that all animals should be treated humanely? Even if you end up killing them for food, they should be treated humanely in their lives and at their deaths.

[THUNDER HANDS]

103. Personally I hate vegetables

But at the same time, there's also a part of me that wishes an evil vegetarian dictator would take over America and ban all meat and slaughtering of animals.

I'd eat vegetables if I had to, or if meat was illegal.

I just wish it was so. I'm too tempted now to give it up - but I'd never kill an animal myself.

[MallRat]

113. I'll assume the animal is not trying to chew off my leg.

All bets are off if the cute, furry little creature is trying to kill me. Otherwise, I think all animals, including livestock, should be treated with great respect.

Jewish dietary law (Kashrut) really elevates the significance of killing an animal for its meat. It is an extraordinary sacrifice- one living being giving its life for another to live.

Bashing a cow on the head with a mallet, or puncturing its brain with a high-powered jet of water just seems like a terribly undignified way for an animal to go.

-MR

[Djinn]

122. Except that kosher (and Halal) slaughter

requires an animal to be conscious when it's throat is cut and for it to bleed to death, - relatively slowly.

The requirement that the animal must not come into contact with the blood of another animal means that this all takes place while the animal is hanging - imagine what kind of stress that induces in an animal, the tearing and breaking of bones and joints as it thrashes around?

Halal and Kosher slaughter practices are not more humane than other commercial methods

[MoonRiver]

124. OMG, I don't even eat animals!

Our attitudes toward and treatment of animals reflect what dwells within our souls, imo. The more "human", that is detached from our "animal" nature, we are, the more compassionately we will behave toward those less able to defend themselves against our all encompassing power.

Thanks for this poll!! :hug:

[Nikia]

126. Treat humanely but I am not opposed to eating meat

I beleive that the flesh of other animals is an important part of many animals diet including our own. I know that people can live vegetarian with proper diets, but for the sake of practicality, culture, convience, and habit that is pretty much true.
We should treat livestock more humanely. I grew up in a rural part of Ohio with many family farms. Here in Wisconsin there are many family farms. From what I have seen, most of those animals are treated humanely. They spend most of their days outside with plenty of space and have sufficient space in the barns as well. That type of farming should be encouraged. Large farms that do not allow minimum space and sanitary conditions should be shut down.
I am also alright with hunting for food with appropriate hunting laws be followed. In many areas, some of these animal populations need to be hunted to keep populations at substainable levels. Deer in Wisconsin, for example, would starve to death if a certain number of them weren't killed every year, not to mention causing many car accidents. They used to be hunted by naturual predators, which would be impractical to reintroduce in sufficient numbers.
I think that all living things deserve to be treated with respect, except maybe mosquitoes, parasites, and cockroaches. It is wrong to treat animals cruelly or kill them without reason.