Changes In The Wind: Rumbling At The VFW Hall

[KharmaTrain]

For over 20 years I've been very close friends with a man who is now a very successful broadcast executive. When we met, we were at a small station where we turned in some record years and had a great time. Tom is a Vietnam vet...a green beret, who served in the Mekong Delta in the days and months following Tet.

For the first several years we worked together, Tom would never talk about his military experiences other than to say he was a Captain and was proud of the military and how it made a positive influence in his life. It wasn't until several long nights bending beverages that the stories started to come out. He shared some of his search & destroy stories where it was ambush or be ambushed and shooting anything that moved was SOP. It was a crazy time and one he would always say was surreal and must never be repeated.

Politically Tom is a "rock-ridge" Repugnican...is an NRA memeber, several Veterans organizations, the local rotary, Kiwanis...his lapel looks like a military uniform. Politically, we would agree to disagree...he called me the "Protesting Hippie" while I called him "Sargent Slaughter"...all in jest, but we did have several occasions where we stated where we were during those days and agreed that those who protested brought the war to a quicker end and saved more lives than it ever cost.

Last year, we chatted about the Iraq situation. I wasn't quite sure where he stood on things...especially since he now had a 22 year old son who was in the reserve and another who was thinking of enlisting in the Marines. As I suspected, he was very supportive of the regime and all the objectives of the time...WMD, torture, threat to oil and so on. He felt pre-emption was necessary and that this regime wouldn't go into a war without having every t crossed and i dotted...ya know, Powell doctrine, overwhelming force and so on. That was then...

As is custom, I gave a call around Memorial day to say hello and was surprised when he told me he had just sent John Kerry a donation!!!! Whoa! But that wasn't all...he said many others in his VFW lodge had done the same and the contempt for this regime is starting to take on some very heated tones. He said these guys feel like Bunnypants and company used the military for their own profit and has gutted the thing...just to waste more of our money to build it up again. The objectives of the invasion have been distorted and "revised" that now ensures we'll be stuck there for years to come with no real "endgame" in sight.

He went on to say that recently a local Repugnican pol (and he joked every other person in that town is a Repugnican pol) stopped in to "keep the faith"...and was run out of the place. The same person stopped back in the next day and pretended like he never said anything in the first place...he just sits quietly. These people are getting very angry...and Tom says that this is happening at other VFWs around the country and specifically in the Midwest.

He passed along one thing to me I think is worth sharing here, and that's to be ready to really support the military once this mess starts hitting our streets. Right now there are thousands of returning injured in VA hospitals and thousands more who still haven't "mainstreamed"...all with incredible horrors on the inside and a lifetime of nightmares ahead. We must be prepared to assist these real victims of Bush's War (I got him to use that term) and not shun even the most militaristic returning vet. If we play the cards right this time, the military will join forces with the Democrats and together we can find the best end to this terrible situation. Something to think about.

Cheers!

[DaveSZ]

1. I agree.

Bush and his corporate cronies abused our military men and women, and we shouldn't blame those folks for what the misadministration has done.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. Bush & Co. ambushed the military and America.

This era needs to be examined thoroughly. When the vets & military start to question the leadership, you should start getting very, very nervous. Especially when that leadership was put in place with their support. Thank God we have an election right around the corner to resolve this problem civilly.

However, it still begs the question, how did it happen? We all know that Bush is an empty vessel and that he was heavily influenced to make all those bad decisions for America. We know that without a brain to question what he was being told to do, that he was operating on ideology alone. That ideology was the danger. The Bush team pushed some very powerful hot buttons to get into office, and once there, there was no restraint. I know Republican constituents feel betrayed, but we should hit them hard with their own stream of conscience so that they can see how they allowed their fears and hatred towards other people to be used to manipulate them.

[Dogmudgeon]

2. Sea change at the local Navy base

It's a Naval Air Station, granted, but it was chock-full of pretty conservative people.

Not any more.

--bkl

[doni_georgia]

13. Not one of my friends or family in the service is voting for Bush

Many of these are career military officers. They've all had it - even the most traditionally conservative are jumping ship over what's happened to the military during this regime.

[Qanisqineq]

3. stories like this bring tears to my eyes

This is great to hear. I never supported this supposed pre-emption, but I can understand how some people were suckered. I'm glad so many are having their eyes opened to who Bush really is and turning against him.

[JSJ]

4. they must atone and make reparations, first

Then, they'll be welcomed back into humanity's embrace. Atonement, reparations, and then... our forgiveness and help. Any less and we'd be shortchanging them and ourselves... and re-setting the stage for future military misadventures involving regretful vets.

[Qanisqineq]

5. who must make reparations?

the military (the returning soldiers)?

And to whom?

[JSJ]

7. hi tolania!

Why, to their victims, of course. It's a Ghandian concept, but, perhaps it's too much for Americans to contemplate just yet. But, it's a keeper for the ages, nonetheless.

And yes, I meant the soldiers.

[Qanisqineq]

8. welcome to DU!

I kind of figured you meant to the Iraqis, but wanted to make sure. I wasn't sure who was supposed to be making these reparations. I have a few problems with your idea of not accepting the soldiers until they make reparations (if I understand your position correctly).

It isn't the individual soldier's fault he/she was sent to fight in this illegal war. Have some soldier's tortured and raped? Have some soldiers killed civilians? Yes and yes. But there are thousands that have not done these things. How are you going to distinguish between the soldiers that have from those that have not? My husband was one of those soldiers that was sent to Iraq. He did not rape or torture and he didn't kill any civilians (or anyone at all for that matter). I don't believe he needs to be prejudged and "spit on" (neither literally nor figuratively) based on what other soldiers have done. If anyone should be readily accepted with open arms, it is the returning soldiers. If anyone should be making reparations, it is this administration.

(Edited for spelling)

[drfemoe]

9. Agreed wholeheartedly ..

from OP
"He passed along one thing to me I think is worth sharing here, and that's to be ready to really support the military once this mess starts hitting our streets. Right now there are thousands of returning injured in VA hospitals and thousands more who still haven't "mainstreamed"...all with incredible horrors on the inside and a lifetime of nightmares ahead. We must be prepared to assist these real victims of Bush's War "...

Having lived through the horror of VN, THIS above all else was why I opposed this *war* ..
.. some of the VICTIMS continue to live .. if you can call it that.
Why ANYONE would want to add to their suffering is beyond my comprehension.

[Qanisqineq]

10. and I agree with your statement, too!

"Why ANYONE would want to add to their suffering is beyond my comprehension."

I cannot comprehend it either. Makes me crazy! :crazy:

[JSJ]

12. thanks for the welcome!

I respect your opinion, of course- but I don't think your line of reasoning holds much hope for humanity. Your husband, bless him, should have had some idea of the drawbacks, both personally and for his country, inherent in entering a military well-known for it's brazen disregard for civilian life and the sovereignty of vulnerable nations (I could cite at least half a dozen US military expeditions where intentional civilian casualties were the norm- beginning with 'Nam and ending with Gulf 2) and further when he had the opportunity not to re-enlist his widening knowledge should have led him to do just that. Personal responsibility dictates that each one of us, including those who aspire to military greatness, accept the good decisions we make as well as the bad ones. Bad decisions that involve (even when that involvement is peripheral) the deaths of civilians, a majority of them children in the case of Iraq and Afhanistan, should also be accepted and dealt with- even when the role is peripheral, as in the case of your husband. Without support personel, the combat units could not do what they do so blasted well. Perhaps I'm expecting too much.

[Qanisqineq]

16. we will just have to agree to disagree

I cannot completely disagree with your statement, "brazen disregard for civilian life" because there are many examples where this is true. However, this is not every soldier, marine, or sailor. I will still respect those that have willingly signed up knowing they could risk or give their life for their country; those that are scarred physically and emotionally for life to protect us.

I wouldn't say the military, per se, is known for their "brazen disregard for... the sovereignty of vulnerable nations". Correct me if I am wrong, but the military does not dictate what countries they will attack, it is the commander in chief.

As for humanity, I don't think it is humane to not accept people when they have been thrown into a hell you and I will never know.

BTW -- My husband does not "aspire to military greatness", he joined for college money.

[JSJ]

21. let me just add...

...one final thought before I change venues.

Nowhere other than the military do we have folks who expect and receive a deferment from responsibility for things that would get the average joe 6-25 yrs. Why is that? Conditioning? Military influence on civilian life? What?

[Qanisqineq]

23. um, deferment from what?

just curious... maybe we can take advantage of these ;)

[Bridget Burke]

15. Who died & made you God?

There are Courts Martial for any offenders against the Iraqi people. And it's known there have been abuses--not just in the jails.

But the majority of the men & women serving over there do not need to be judged by you. In fact, even those few who deserve to be judged--will not be judged by you.

You dare to mention Ghandi, but go on with Old Time Religion crap about "atonement".

[JSJ]

18. nobody made me god...

...why, do you think I'm god?

Seriously, atonement is a cornerstone of Ghandi's philosophy- in fact, his prescription for righting a wrong- in the example of a man who killed a family's breadwinner- was to have the man assume the breadwinner role in the family of the 'wronged' party until the 'debt' was 're-paid'. Pretty nifty.

[wellstone dem]

28. I think I'd better think about my own reparations

before I think about requiring that young soldiers who signed up to help pay for college or to find a job or because they were not taught the truth in school make reparations.

Did I write enough letters to the editor, to my members of congress, to my friends enlisting their support?

Did I Protest?

Did I pay taxes that supported this war?

Did I run for the school board to ensure a better educational system.

Did I contribute to scholarship funds, peace movements?

Did I encourage kids and workers to walk out to protest the war?

Before I start asking for reparations from anyone else, I think I will start offering compassion to those who paid the price for my not doing enough.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MajorFlaw]

11. "Support the troops" is one of the biggest lies of the war.

I really support our troops, I support bringing each and every one of them home alive and uninjured. I would also offer a new GI bill, one which would pay college and graduate school tuition for all returning soldiers. Let's honor their service and sacrifice by offering them low interest mortgages to be used in purchasing a first home. And let's not blame them for the stupid decisions made by our civilian leaders. That's my way of supporting our troops.

[DaveSZ]

14. Great idea

Kerry should propose a new GI bill!

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

17. He could fund it...

By cutting some of the federal grants and loans and tax credits to Walmart.

[MajorFlaw]

19. Preferably during his acceptance speech at the convention.

Shrubco would, of course, accuse him of pandering. But I think it would work. Instead of honoring their service with medals and awards, let's do something for them which will really help them get their lives together. A free, quality education is about the greatest gift I can think of. Don't they deserve it?

[Nay]

20. Nearly every vet I know at work would rather take a bullet

than vote for shit-for-brains in November. They all feel screwed over. It's a good sign. Unfortunately, everyone else is still a Bush toad.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. And stop-loss

forcing military about to leave to have to stay on to go to Iraq-this isn't endearing Bush to the military either. I think the soldiers are catching on to the fact that Shrubco doesn't give a rat's behind for them, that he's just using them, and they are getting mad.

[Hubert Flottz]

26. That will get the saber rattlers to rattling sabers against the king

of Funk! It's just Bush's way of saying "You're Drafted" to the troops, as a Memorial Day weekend thank you! Shock and Awe to find out you're in the service and can't get out! Just a matter of Bush winning in November, between "Stop Loss" and the draft boards sending out the "Greetings" letters to the kids!

The handwriting is being placed on the wall by a fool that can't even read writing on a TV screen! We are having flood clean up in several WV counties by our state troops and all their equipment was left behind in Iraq when they came home!(stolen by the DoD) I don't think there is enough red a$$ salve in the world to save Bush the military vote!

[supercrash]

24. May I suggest something....

Tell your friend to go fuck himself

He was for war in Iraq...he fell for the wmd lies, he is for torture he is for pre emption

His radical views put us all in danger, and now I am suppose to be happy that I find him standing next to me cheering for Kerry

The Bush supporters put us all in danger

They can fucking die

How dare they try and send this war they ordered back like some cold soup at the deli

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. If we want to move forward has a country

and get over this national nightmare, those of us on the left are going to have to be a lot more forgiving than those on the right could ever even consider or imagine.

Yes, a lot of people were wrong to support W and his agenda but when the scales finally fall from their eyes we need to welcome them back to the fold, not punish them for their past transgressions.

[union_maid]

27. In fact, not judging them would be good

If people have something to atone for, that's between them and their consciences, unless they seek some kind of help. If people have changed their minds about the war and the administration, that's wonderful and let's join together to change things. Telling people whose personal story you don't know to atone or telling people to fuck themselves because they believed the administration and no longer do is setting up exactly the kind of situation that will lead to more of the same because the left will always be the self-righteous, holier than thou enemy to them.

[wellstone dem]

30. I think the torture

reference in the post, was a reference to buying the administrations claims about Saddam's torture, not a reference to the more recently exposed US torture.

[KharmaTrain]

32. Being A Pompus Ass Doesn't Help Things

It's so easy now for many of us who opposed this war from the outset, despise this regime and now are seeing our worst predictions come to fruition to do the "I toldya so" routine, and what would that do? Alienate? Create more hatred?

I want a full war crimes trials on this regime...if we're going to get some "retribution", then this is where it should be done. Let's put Perle, Wolfie, Rummy, Chenney in the dock and expose their profiteering and then have them dealt in the world court.

So far these assholes are gonna walk away from thousands of deaths and millions of destroyed lives and families without having to be accountable for all their actions. By hating those who support, or telling them to fuck themselves, you're letting those who are really responsible walk or push any guilt they have on those who so blindly supported them.

Right now I welcome anyone who will work against this regime and those who both gave money and voted for Bunnypants is AOK in my book. Playing litmus tests, inclusiveness and wholescale retribution is counter to the values I think many on DU stand for.

Cheers!

[dusty64]

31. This is awesome.

I'm getting the same things when I talk to veterans that I know. Glad they are seeing through the propaganda filter and know the truth.

[blm]

33. There has been a quiet campaign going on in VFW halls for over a year.

Max Cleland and other Veterans for Kerry have been speaking out at every vet organization they could get to. It was their efforts that brought record number of veterans to the polls during the primaries.

Cleland and other vets have been telling the truth to these men about what BushInc is really doing. The word is spreading, too. Even some of Bush's staunchest vet supporters in SC in 2000 are working against him and for Kerry this year.