military family loses son, turns against Bush and war . . .

[OneBlueSky]

this was the cover story in today's Times Herald-Record in Middletown, New York (Orange County) . . . after losing a son and brother, they not only turned against the war, but are being very vocal about it, rallying with Veterans for Peace outside West Point during graduation ceremonies . . .

Iraq vet, father support Kerry
Family feels betrayed by Bush's 'lies'

By Mike Dawson
Times Herald-Record
June 3, 2004

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2004/06/03/mdmedina.htm

Jorge's twin sons, Irving and Ivan Medina, signed up for the U.S. Army just after graduating from Goshen High School and both went to Iraq. Their older sister, Jenny, who lives in Coral Gables, Fla., is still in the Army. Their service made Jorge proud. It made his family somehow more American, he said.

A roadside bomb in November changed their American experience. Irving, an Army specialist, died on a Baghdad street after a bomb ripped into his head.

Immediately the Medinas began questioning the government and the war. Later, they began joining protests against the war and President Bush's Iraq policies. Now the Medinas have become a national rallying point for the anti-war and anti-Bush movements.

- more . . .

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2004/06/03/mdmedina.htm

RIP, Irving Medina

[cosmokramer]

1. They honor the memory of their son well.

It takes greater courage to oppose a bad decision than it does to go along with it. Bless his family for their courage.

[asthmaticeog]

2. With all due respect, horseshit.

Their "courage" never would have materialized so long as it was other peoples' kids dying and not thier own. I'm genuinely, sincerely sorry for their loss -nobody should be dying in this travesty of an invasion - but I've fucking had it with people who supported the war 'til it hurt them personally.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. There's some compassionate liberalism for ya

While their faith was misdirected in the first place, they paid the ultimate price for that faith. Their actions take more courage than what you just did does. Righteousness doesn't require anything but righteousness... a lesson I've seen demonstrated all too well by the other side and have little appreciation for it on my own.

[pop goes the weasel]

5. You are so very right

The cynical, holier-than-thou attitude that so many liberals display toward people who don't hold their same opinions does nothing to sway opponents, and does a good job of alienating possible friends. I salute the Medinas, people who quite obviously take service to country seriously enough that they speak out loud and clear when they see their country is wrong.

[asthmaticeog]

6. In a way you're absolutely right,

but there's still plenty of room to disagree. If their own kids were still alive, I'll bet the rent they'd still be pro-war, despite the 800 or so other families that lost their sons, daughters, moms & dads so that Dick Cheney's stock options would go up a couple of points. That's a disgusting lack of empathy that I feel fine with washing my hands of (I'm aware of the irony inherent in that statement, and I'm well beyond giving a fuck). If I appear to lack compassion, it's because I've finally become totally jaded with ex-hawks who could have stood against this abomination from the start but chose instead to cheerlead it. Righteousness has not one god damn thing to do with it. Supporting a transparent pack of lies carries with it culpability for those lies' real-world results. And I'll say it again, I'm truly sorry for this family's loss - nobody, NOBODY should have died in this sickening, pointless train-wreck. But really, think about it - people that are proud of their kids going to war suddenly going dovish when their kids die in that war - WHAT DO PEOPLE THINK KIDS DO IN WARS IF NOT DIE?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. I don't consider the average citizen complicit when honest information

needs to be sought out. There was very little honest info prior to the war available in mainstream media. People had the shit scared out of them on 9/11. Even on DU where people could read from a variety of sources, there was great debate (although thankfully most people here were against.)

We have a very serious problem with the 4th estate in this country...they failed us.

These people were proud based on what they knew at the time. They learned of the deceit the hard way.

You won't win anyone but those who already agreed with you on that one.

If a person KNEW it was all lies and supported their kid in going...I would be on the same page as you..but there was LOTS of conflicting info out there...but amazingly only that which seemed to support the war and the television ratings it would bring made it onto the nightly news.

[BattyDem]

4. I know what you mean

I feel terrible for this family and every family that lost someone because of this pointless fraud of a war! But you're right ... most of the families are pro-war until it's their loved one who dies. :-(

I'm reminded of something I heard on Air America a few weeks ago ...
"People are only conservative until it affects them personally."

[asthmaticeog]

11. So true.

That line about people being conservatives until it affects them personally, I mean. My uncle, great guy, justifiably adored by our rather huge extended family, was a dedicated "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" conservative until I was in a REALLY bad way several years ago and I sucked up major amounts of pride and asked him for a hand. God bless his soul, he helped me out bigtime, and I surely wouldn't be where I am now if he hadn't. A couple of years after that, he got on a "bootstraps" rant, and I gently prodded him about where the money for his college education and his business startup loan came form. He was a WWII vet, so of course it all came from the G.I. Bill, along with a bit of help from his relatives. When he said that, my aunt (his wife - fabulous lady - they deserve each other, for real, very lucky couple, about to celebrate their 60th anniversary - holy shit!) pointed out that his very own bootstraps weren't actually his own (not that I object to that at all - we should STILL be so generous to vets - thank conservatives we aren't). He's since changed his tune.

[Andromeda]

15. That may be true,

but why does that matter? If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. Sometimes it takes a tramatic experience to change your mind about something.

[BattyDem]

16. You're right about that.

I'm not condemning them for changing their minds - they paid the ultimate price for this war. I just wish they would have made the effort to become informed BEFORE the war started. I know they're proud Americans - I'm not questioning their love or loyalty for their country - but I can't help but wonder why they were so willing to offer blind loyalty to Bush*. I mean, if it were my kid going off to war, I would do everything I could to find out why we were fighting. Many of these families said the war protesters were "anti-American and unpatriotic" and yet it was the protesters who were trying to save their children from an unnecessary, tragic fate.

So many people (not just military families) blindly followed this pResident into war, without asking one single question. Had they demanded some answers, maybe some lives could have been saved. I don't know ... maybe it wouldn't have made a difference at all, but it just seems so tragic that hundreds of families have lost a loved one and they are now faced with the reality that they died for nothing. I'm not saying their service to our country was nothing - they volunteered to protect the rest of us, so as far as I'm concerned, they're all heroes - but they died for no clear reason. Iraq wasn't a threat, al-Qaeda wasn't in Iraq, Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, there were no WMDs, and we "liberated" the Iraqis by replacing Saddams torture chambers with our own! So what did they give their lives for ... Halliburton?

I just think it's very, very sad that it took the death of their child to open their eyes. What a horrible way to become "enlightened" :-(

[Must_B_Free]

7. Live by the sword, die by the sword

We all have to take responsibility for the bed we made for ourselves. It's not like 1/2 the country wasn't opposed to the war. It's not like they didn't have any hints. If they would have even done the "christian" thing, their son might be alive.

Sorry for the loss, but, we make our own beds.

[wtmusic]

8. Thank you, and let's look at this from another side

how many Iraqis did their son off before he got his?

Ya pull the trigger, ya take your chances.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. We don't know the answer..so I won't speculate

War is some ugly shit.

[wtmusic]

13. This is evolving into the "Do you support the troops" paradox

which has no answer whatsoever, except to support putting Bush on trial for war crimes as soon as possible.

26 more days until our UN exemption is up.

[FDRrocks]

12. He died for the lies of our government institution....

Kerry will get my vote, due to the economic and military situations, but he has ALOT of goddamned work to do to earn my vote for his second term.

"You're gonna die, gonna die, gonna die for your government? Die for your government, that's shit!"

[Beam Me Up]

14. This is a very interesting debate on this thread and I can see both

sides of the issue. I personally feel it is very important that Americans--those who have supported the war and those who have opposed it--begin to try and come together. It is a difficult thing to realize that one has been lied to by people one trusted. Difficult to realize that those you once supported have betrayed your trust. America is in very dangerous waters right now and, ultimately, it is going to take a lot of willpower and hard work from a lot of us pulling together to get us through these difficult times. We can do it, but holding grudges or enmity toward one another only makes what must be done that much more difficult.