Do you support free health care for everyone and increased minimum wage?

[EldreEdda]

Hi!

Like the thread title say; what do you think of these issues? Shouldn't a prosperous society pay the cost when the citizens get sick? And shouldn't America be ashamed of letting all those millions that live in such dire conditions, even if they work 12 hours a day?

[qwertyMike]

1. Of course - no brainer

The "state"'s money is OURS, held in trust and to be used for OUR benefit.
Free college too.

[EldreEdda]

4. The lowest minimum wage in the Western world

and college only for the richest. Will the Democrats really do something about these issues?! I am must say that America should be ashamed the way they treat the poor.

[Kanary]

44. "America should be ashamed the way they treat the poor."

EldreEdda, I thank you from the bottom of my heart!! :hug: I hope you will keep repeating this.... it badly needs to be heard.

I'm so disheartened that I am at the point of just giving up. NOBODY, and I really mean NOBODY wants to hear anything about it. The Democrats?? HAH! They've also sold the poor down the river. It is a complete disgrace. Even Dennis Kucinich, who I think very highly of, has dropped ANY MENTION of poverty issues, and his supporters want to hear nothing about it. I seriously doubt there will be ANY planks of the platform regarding poverty.

The US is the only industrialized nation to so callously ignore poor folk, and don't even want to look at what the country is doing. DISGRACEFUL!

As I said, I hope you will keep saying it.

Kanary

[Deja Q]

5. In a proper society geared toward true prosperity:

We would have decent healthcare (not just in price but in service - and the service people get isn't always good), free education so when we have to change careers, we don't lose our houses and whole damn LIVES in the process.

It's fair to pay the teenie-boppers a small amount of money, because they live at home with the parents. But for adults, it is beyond absurd that, in the richest nation on Earth by far, people have to take 2 jobs and still barely make ends meet (a condition that's only getting worse, so when will people do something about it?)

The whole world should be like that.

But who is going to want to start over fresh, in order for this to happen? Even the doctors and shrinks I've talked to say there are problems with the medical industry in terms of having to find another provider when you switch jobs (and other issues) but they are quite content with the pay they get (half of which don't deserve it either). The wealthy do not want the change. They love the status quo.


No repuke will instigate change, no matter how often they say they're compassionate and the other dung, the only changes they'll make is for the top 2%. Kerry sure as hell won't make changes, or, rather, if he does I'll be highly surprised. Only Kucinich and he's a crackpot leftie commie, right? x(

[JanMichael]

2. Well I do but you'll find quite a few DU'ers that don't.

They'll show up soon I suppose.

[cindyw]

3. There is no such thing as free health care.

Universal health care is not free health care.

[JanMichael]

6. I prefer "Single Payer HC". I think however that the original poster was..

...refering to 100% coverage for all, at all times, regardless of the tax scheme.

[EldreEdda]

54. Yes,

that was what I meant. Being unemployed or poor shouldn't matter IMO. You shouldn't be punished so badly for being sick.

[Deja Q]

7. Then let's all pay a proper value for it and get the value we deserve

We pay a lot and often get a bunch of dunderheads... my ex-psychiatrist, who I never confronted, was a quack's quack.

Nice cartoon BTW. But remember, those who are classy when trying to get a position held by the unclassy, will easily get trampled by the unclassy. We've seen the repukes over the last ~20 years, they've set new lows... we need to fight back.

[EldreEdda]

9. Well

Here in Norway, we don't have to pay anything if we get sick, and college is free. The students on the best universities come from all walks of life, what they have in common is that they have good grades from high school. The minimum wage here is $13 an hour. Why doesn't America treat their citizens like this when they can afford it?

[leftyandproud]

13. curious

with these policies, what is the unemployment rate in your country...and what are the average tax rates people pay?

[EldreEdda]

29. Unemployment rate of 4,3%

and middle-class people pay about 36% of wages in tax. Average annual income for an employed person is about $40000.

[cindyw]

32. Well there you go. You are paying for your health care and college through

taxes.

[Lars39]

37. And that's a Bad thing?

Beats the hell out of paying corporate welfare or for a new bomb. :shrug:

[cindyw]

39. I didn't say it was bad. I believe in the progressive tax system because

it allows our country to provide dignity, health and life through social security, medicare, etc.

[Lars39]

41. The problem with only relying on those systems is that people fall thru

the cracks. Try being ineligible for insurance because of a pre-existing condition, yet you make too much money for medicare or your state's program. Happens everyday.

[EldreEdda]

38. Yeah

I wonder why you don't? So that everyone can have the same opportunities even if they aren't born into a rich family?

[cindyw]

42. My point is that it is not free. You are paying for it through taxes.

I think it is appropriate. It is also important to address cost before you have the government paying for it. Otherwise you have the tax payer paying for the runaway profits of the drug companies and the insurance providers.

Honestly who pays the doctors? The government? Do they set the amount they pay? Do they tell them what treatments they perform on people?

[qwertyMike]

70. You are paying enough for all of this 'Free' stuff in the US

You are just not receiving it.

[Nobody]

26. Because there is such comtempt for the poor

There actually are people who think that if you work a full time job, it's perfectly OK if you can't pay the rent and buy adequate groceries in the same month. These are the same people who don't want these same people to cost them tax money receiving food stamps.

Our governor (Pawlenty Minnesota Republican) tried to institute a policy where food stamp recipients could only buy certain things with them, no pop or other junk food despite healthier food being much more expensive and requires a means of cooking it. Some people don't have this. Fortunately the federal agency regulating this threw it out.

Interestingly enough, the troops the republicans claim to support so much are not paid enough to afford to feed themselves and their families and they are also food stamp recipients. Our veterans that the republicans claim to support so much have had hazard pay cut in half by George Bush. Our veterans that the republicans claim to support so much have had their health benefits cut by millions of dollars by this current administration.

Here, you'll find people opposing raising the minimum wage above its current level of less than $6/hr because the work isn't worth more.

I wonder how long it will take for people to figure out that if people are not paid a living wage for honest work, the taxpayers make it up. We the taxpayers are paying the operating costs of corporations making huge profits and blaming the poor for being drains on society when it is the hugely profitable corporation that is the drain on society by refusing to pay people enough to live on. Corporations that can well afford it.

No one is outraged that working people can't live on what they earn, they are instead outraged at these people needing to use food stamps to feed themselves and their families and they froth at the mouth if one of these parents might want to buy their kid a birthday cake.

Norway sounds like a wonderful place.

[cindyw]

31. Who pays your taxes then. Who pays the doctors? Are they indentured

servants? The actual person getting the care may not have paid for the service, but someone does. It is the basis for our progressive tax system. I get your point though about how we should treat our people. I am just making the point that it is not "free".

[EldreEdda]

46. Well, free was not correct

Of course someone has to pay for it, what I mean is that all tax and state income goes to a pot, where it's being distributed to the sectors that need it, incl. colleges, paying doctors and medical equipment etc. But don't you think that this is a more human and warmer society?

Why should it be necessary to have a job to get health care? Why should only the richest be able to go to the colleges, while the poor would have to join the army or something to be able to get into college? I think there should be equal rights for everyone. Of course, you will be rewarded here too, if you do well in business, but salaries are more evened out, so that the stock-broker "only" earns 5 times more than the cleaning lady, not 20.

[EldreEdda]

67. Agree with me?

on that?

[candy]

35. What are your taxes in Norway?

Sales,income etc.?

[EldreEdda]

50. 36 % for middle income

salaries which are about $40-45000. The value-added tax on goods and services are 24%.

[candy]

66. Thanks!

[BringEmOn]

56. Sounds like the familiar `RW "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

or the Raw Deal

[Angelus]

8. Hell yeah!

As well as free education!

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EldreEdda]

15. The people

The rich surely should pay more tax. Is it fair that those billionaires have all of those money when people work their butts off and barely make a living? Why is this so hard for you to do? Here in Norway we do it, and we are about as rich per capita as you guys. The class differences are way to big in America. What do you gain by that?

[thevoice]

18. Norway is not America

How many people are in Norway? I'm sure there is not over 260 million there legally and who knows how many ilegally. It is not practical to compare Norway to the US on this issue apples and oranges.

[PVnRT]

22. Let's apply your logic

I must have a problem, because I have a master's degree and can't find a job. Or maybe your point is idiotic.

I suppose it's more important that we buy more tanks we don't need and you get to keep YOUR money while people get sick and die because they can't go to the doctor. Hope you sleep well at night.

By the way, minimum wage jobs usually don't provide health benefits, and if they do, those working them can't afford them. But I guess that's all their fault, right?

[thevoice]

27. My logic

What do you have a master's in? Is it in a field that is actually in demand or is it in something like Ancient Greek Philisophy?
My point about minimum wage jobs is that they are not intended to be careers. They are entry level employment. Most times, if you show initiative and work hard you will get promoted and/or get a raise and so on and so on. As for health benefits, they do not immediately provide them on day one usually, but where I worked for minimum wage, after 6 months I became eligible for benefits. And since I worked hard and showed initiative I was not making anything near minimum wage by that time either. Minimum wage is not a career is my logic

[Lars39]

34. So what happens to you in the six-month gap

when you don't have insurance and you get diagnosed with cancer? Do you have an enormous amount in savings from your minimum wage job to cover the surgery and subsequent treatments needed to save your life?

[Nobody]

40. Not a career? It is if nothing else exists

I guess it's my fault for not being able to time travel into the future to see that the time and effort I spent getting certified in several operating systems, learning the ins and outs of computer networking, hardware repair, software fixes, and keeping up with the rapidly changing technology would be useless so I could instead spend the time and effort getting a degree in something you would approve of.

Guess what. Despite being one of the best techs on site, and despite visiting with customers when business was slow and bringing in work that way, I still got laid off.

Tell me again about hard work being rewarded.

[EldreEdda]

33. No that's true

but does this mean that you can't get a proper health care system that cover for everyone that gets sick, because you are a much bigger country? I am not just talking about health care, I can mention free college as well. I mean, Norway and the USA have perhaps the highest GDP per capita in the world, so USA should be able to make a "human" society that doesn't just care for the rich...

[MercutioATC]

57. WE'D pay for it...just like we do now.

Those without medical insurance use the only medical facility that can't turn them away by law...the emergency department. Unfortunately, this is some of the most expensive health care available and, because they haven't been getting preventative care, their problems are generally further advanced and more expensive to treat. This unreimbursed cost is either absorbed by the hospital (in the form of service cuts) or passed on in the form of increased fees for everybody else.

We pay already. We'd probably actually pay less if we offered national health care.

[Cleita]

11. Yes, we do.

As a matter-of-fact, I have a project to do for my local Democratic Club for our next meeting on the deplorable access to health care in our country. I would appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of websites in English about your health care system in Norway. I am trying to draw up a comparison of all countries with national health care and how they stack up to us.

[JanMichael]

17. WHO Rankings. We spend more, cover less. Bravo.

This cites the WHO report. I think it's been revamped recently and, voila! Norway is #1.

Health spending as Per capita
percentage of GDP spending Population
------------------ ---------- ----------
1. France 9.8% $2,369 59 million
2. Italy 9.3% $1,855 57 million
3. San Marino 7.5% $2,257 26,000
4. Andorra 7.5% $1,368 75,000
5. Malta 6.3% $551 386,000
6. Singapore 3.1% $876 3.5 million
7. Spain 8.0% $1,071 39 million
8. Oman 3.9% $370 2.4 million
9. Austria 9.0% $2,277 8.2 million
10. Japan 7.1% $2,373 126 million
11. Norway 6.5% $2,283 4.4 million
12. Portugal 8.2% $845 9.8 million
13. Monaco 8.0% $1,264 33,000
14. Greece 8.0% $905 10 million
15. Iceland 7.9% $2,149 279,000

37. U.S.A. 13.7% $4,187 276 million

[Cleita]

23. Thanks JanMichael. Just some of the stats I need.

May I PM you as I delve into this as I feel you probably have a lot of the info I need?

[JanMichael]

28. Feel free.

I must warn you though because HC isn't my speciality, but I've tried to educate myself on the subject of national systems and delivery.

[EldreEdda]

21. Here is a site

Which might be of interest to you

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/34/49/1864965.pdf

[Cleita]

25. Thanks so much. This is what I need.

:-)

[Kanary]

49. I second Cleita's request! This is the info we so desperately need.

Thanks for any help you can offer in this direction.

:hi:

Kanary

[EldreEdda]

52. We work less than you guys though :)

Every worker in Norway are entitled to 5 weeks vacation a year, so that costs alot too of course.

[Kanary]

55. Yes, you respect families, and the need for R&R

Would that the US would become so healthy (mentally) that we could have the same respect for our citizens.

I'm also intrigued with Finland's and Sweden's systems.

I overheard a woman in the grocery store a couple of weeks ago telling another woman, in amazed tones, about meeting some visitors from Sweden, and learning about their system. I said, "We could have that if we really wanted it".

It's hard to even talk about....... we're taught we're "the best", yet we are waaaay behind other countries. I can't even talk about it without getting hugely upset.

Kanary

[EldreEdda]

58. I think that is more important than your ridiculously low gas prices

so stop complaining about gas prices, ;) Here in Norway the gas price is 6$ a gallon. We don't care so much about that like so many Americans do, apparenlty. ;)

[Kanary]

59. Whoaaa, wait a minnit! ^_^

Pleeeez, you have to remember the context here.......

Remember, we're discussing our LACK of any sort of fall back??? We DON'T have the community resources you have.

Remember that.......

Then..... realize that as gas prices rise, those on the end of the income scale have NO RECOURSE.... they can't afford more $$$ for gas (not without giving up eating, or losing their homes), so they can't get to work, so they lose their (already pitiful) jobs.

This Has Already Happened To MANY!

In *your* country, that wouldn't be such a tragedy.. they would still have their medical care, they would still have a home, they would still have education for their children. (There is also a much better system of public transportation.)

WE HAVE NONE OF THAT.

Please, at least think of what is happening to the children of these families. Even if you don't care about the adults, realize how the children are suffering, because the oil companies are gouging, and piling up obscene profits.

I realize that what you probably think about is those who are driving obscene Hummers, and you're absolutely right........ those folks have NO room for complaint.

Just remember, there are many of us who drive small cars, and are already on the edge.

Or, maybe you think it's funny, that there are people really suffering from this........ I hope you will rethink. There is some REAL suffering going on.

Kanary

[EldreEdda]

64. Thinking of all those SUV drivers out there

who drive around all the time and still complain. Of course, it's terrible for those poor families living on the edge, those families really suffer badly, and should of course get some assistance from the government, just as those who couldn't afford the electricity bill here did, when the electricity prices sky-rocketed here in some months last year. I know we understand eachother. ;)

[Cleita]

63. Hey Kanary, I'm gonna be contacting you too once I immerse

myself in this. But I gotta clean my house today. :hi:

[Kanary]

65. Cleaning? CLEANING?!! Heresy! ^_^

:hi:

Or, should I say....... "When you're done with your house, come visit mine........."? :toast:

I appreciate whatever you share on this, when you are ready. This is important stuff.

Thanks for keeping me in mind........

Kanary

[TN al]

12. I wholeheartedly support both of your propostions.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. Yes yes yes

And I'll gladly pay more taxes, and expect CORPORATIONS and people who make more than me (that's anyone making more than $11,000 per year)to do the same.

[KittyWampus]

16. I Support LIMITED Health Care Access For Everyone

We would have to limit what was covered by such health coverage.

To start, I'd say PREVENTATIVE medicine should DEFINATELY be free (yearly check ups, innoculations, teeth cleaning)


Even more than raise in minimum wage, I'd like to see salary caps. After a certain amount people should just give their money up to taxes or perhaps charity.

[Cleita]

20. How about limited CEO salaries and wall street profits?

That is where the money is going, not into health care. I have a health plan that I buy into every month, just in case, but I don't have health care because I have to pay for everything myself, until I meet an extremely high deductible. As a result I go without preventive health care that I can't afford and medication that I can't afford because I am paying that money to the insurance company instead. I do hope that all those rich billionaires at the top are enjoying my health care money. And I am lucky because I do have some health care to fall back on in case of the big C or other devastating illness.

[MercutioATC]

36. I agree 100%. There should be a minimum threshhold under which

everybody is covered. Above that, it should be "pay to play", either in the form of cash or upgraded private insurance. However, salary caps would, I believe, be punative. Why punish somebody for working hard?

Before anybody brings up CEOs who are total business failures but still maki tens of millions a year, those are contractual issues that will work themselves out when it has an effect on the company's bottom line. Real business talent should be rewarded...

[Lars39]

43. "Pay to play"? What if you get something very serious and don't have $?

Death is punitive. So is bankrupting your family so that one member can live. :(

[MercutioATC]

47. That's not what I meant by "pay to play".

I believe in the system Howard Dean proposed where we expand FEHBP to include all Americans.

Private insurers are still involved, so it will face less of a challenge by big money. There is no exclusion for pre-existing conditions. Under Dean's plan, you pay nothing under a certain income level and a maximum of 7.5% of adjusted gross income for premiums. If you lose your job, you keep the insurance and, since your income is gone, you pay nothing for it. It offers a variety of policies to choose from, so people can pick which policy fits them best.

However, the plans decide what treatments they'll authorize. They may decide that a more expensive procedure won't be covered when a less expensive procedure will do. They may not cover ALL dental or Optometric services.

If you wanted more than that, you'd have to pay extra or have supplemental private insurance.

That's what I meant by "pay to play". Sorry I was unclear before.

[Cleita]

48. You guys kind of have it backwards.

Most people, who are employed, can afford preventive care. It's those who are too sick to work, too elderly to work or out of work that need but can't afford health care unless our system has a system of safety nets for those people.

I would favor a single payer system, with a modest deductible, for preventive care and routine office visits. I would wave the deductible for all children under eighteen and those still attending college until they are twenty-one and anyone over sixty-five and retired, as well as those who qualify for being handicapped or having a chronic condition like diabetes, or an end-stage disease like kidney failure or cancer.

You see, our health system, has followed the insurance company model of insuring only healthy people that it has clouded our thinking and many think the healthy should get the benefits for preventive care and not for actual medical care when in need.

[MercutioATC]

51. I kinda thought that is what I was proposing...minus the premiums for

those with no income...

I'm just curious, how is that backwards from what you propose?

[Cleita]

61. The way you worded it, gave me the impression that

certain routine health care would be covered, but beyond that you would have to get insurance. Insurance doens't like to insure people who need the health care, so most likely a diabetic, for instance, would be eliminated from such a plan by the time renewal came up or the premiums would be jacked up to unaffordable rates because of that illness or even age, like what has happened to me.

[MercutioATC]

62. Yeah, I know. I worded it poorly. Post #47 explains it better.

:)

[Pithlet]

19. Yes, and yes.

And America should be ashamed. But, too many of us are greedy and deluded into thinking that poverty, unemployment, and getting bankrupted by huge, inflated medical bills can't happen to us.

[Nite Owl]

24. Yes and healthcare

should not be connected to working. Everyone shold be able to get the care they need. Connecting it to work is nonsensical. You lose your job and you lose everything and then have debt to top it off. There could be lots of people employed for themselves, pursuing something that they really like to do if they didn't need a big corporation to give them meagoer wages and bare benefit packagaes. Tax it on consumer goods that everyone would pay for in some way.

[Radical Activist]

30. Of course! What Democrat wouldn't?

OH wait, does John Kerry support those things? I guess that's why I voted Kucinich last month.

[Dropkick]

45. YES YES YES!!

I just find it ridiculous that people are unable to get the care they need. My younger brother (he's 25, so like many people his age he is uninsured) was bitten in the face by a dog several months ago (less than 1 cm difference and he would have lost an eye) and his bills are just staggering, in part because he had to see an eye surgeon to repair the damage to his lower eyelid (the dogs tooth snagged on it and ripped it). Thank god the girl who owns the dog has figured out a way to pay for the bills (her homeowners wouldn't cover it due to breed), otherwise, we just would not have been able to afford it, and he still has several visits to go (she's a good friend of the family; she had to take out a home equity loan on her house).

I have awesome health insurance (through work), but nearly a quarter of my salary goes to pay for it (money I could REALLY use elsewhere). Being a parent, I can't NOT have health coverage for me and the kid (if it was just me, I would probably opt out of health coverage, like a lot of people I know).

A person working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year for minimum wage earns only $10,920 (BEFORE taxes) for the entire year. That is NOT enough to live on. Our minimum wage is a disgrace. I rememeber during the hullabaloo leading up to the last increase in the 90's how repubs cried about how jobs would be lost because of it (lie).

One of the misconceptions about minimum wage workers is that it's teens working at McDonalds who earn it, which is untrue in a couple of ways. One, Mcdonalds starting wages are ABOVE minimum wage. Two, most minimum wage workers are adults (and of them, more are women). Ideally, I would like to see a staggered minimum wage, as they have in the UK, with workers ages 16-17 earning slightly less than workers 18-21, and 18-21 earning slightly less than 22 and olders. See this link for an explaination of the minimum wages in the UK http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/nmw/ . (BTW, UK minimum wage is currently equal to US$8.26)


**edited for spelling

[Nikia]

53. Universal healthcare would give people more freedom

Tying healthinsurance to a job causes people to remain in jobs that they hate, devestates them if they lose jobs, and influences their job choices in selecting their next job. Many low wage jobs have relatviely high cost health insurance that is unaffordable. Good companies who pay a relatively large percentage of health insurance for their employees are having problems monetarily trying to continue to insurance their employees with rising insurance rates. Most companies would be glad not to be subject to that labor cost.
Insurance companies are rather rich powerful companies though. They have the luxery of raising their prices however much they need to continue making high profits because they can expect people/companies will pay the price.

[Pithlet]

60. Those are some of the reasons why

I think we may see universal coverage not tied to employment in the future. Corporations are going to get tired of the rising costs of keeping their employees covered. More and more people are losing their insurance. It's going to happen. It can't happen soon enough.

[bowens43]

68. Absolutely.

It's appalling that in the most prosperous nation on the planet there are people without health insurance.

[shraby]

69. If all the social programs concerned with

medical care were moved over to one national program providing medical coverage for all Americans what would the cost difference be concerning the amount now paid for administration of what we have now? I would venture to guess there would be a large saving in administrative costs that could be applied to a single national program, and I'm sure that what people are paying now for their medical coverage (including deductions) would not be more than the taxes that would be required to pay for a national system covering all. I don't have figures to substantiate it, but it's something that should be looked at.

[napi21]

71. Increased min. wage but not free health care.

I think the minumum wage should have been increased along with the rate of inflation over the years. It was $1.15/hr when I first started working in 1961. Even though it's been increased several times over the years, at $5.35 it hasn't kept up.

I don't believe in FREE health care. I think there should be changes made to the current system, but not free. Free stuff somehow gets abused.

I hate to sound like an old fart, but I remember in 1965 going to the Dr. and the visit cost $5.00. A prescription was expensive if it was over $4.00. There was no such thing as Health Care insurance, jusst hospitalization, because you didn't need it. To put that in comparison, I was out of town and had to visit the Dr. for a prescription for an infection. His office said they couldn't accept my ins. because is was from out of state, so I'd have to pay cash for the visit, but my ins. co. would reimburse me when I submitted the bill. The office visit was $149.00!!!!! The prescription was $39.00. This was a GP, not a heart surgeon! You tell me what has happened over that 39 years, and we'll have the answer to how to fix the health care problem.

[BringEmOn]

73. Free gets abused?

And you were charged $149 for a office visit and $39 for prescription? Who was abused?

[Liberal Classic]

72. I tend to think one size does not fit all

Which is why I prefer means tests for social security and medicare. I don't quite agree that the government should subsidize those people who do not need subsidization. This tends to put me at odds with those who desire nationalized medicine.

[Darranar]

74. Yes to both. n/t