You see a beggar on the street. Which is the bigger sin?

[Elidor]

Poll question: You see a beggar on the street. Which is the bigger sin?

A hypothetical situation based on one of the myths the GOP under Ronnie tried to sell in the 1980's: the panhandler who makes $50k a year on a busy streetcorner and drives a luxury car.

This was the biggest pile of shit, right up there with all that crap about (invariably) black welfare mothers cheating the system.

So you see a scruffy-looking fellow on the corner openly soliciting for food or money. Which is the bigger sin:

Edit: I should amend that to say "which is the bigger mistake?" I don't mean to bring sin into it.

[PfNJ]

1. let's see that.....

Shitfucking asshat and his "conservative" buddies tell me the guys I see all day long, in Paterson, Jersey City, Newark, East Orange, Irvington, tell me these guys are well-off hustlers, playing us for suckers.....yeah, right, they must be in cahoots with those damn killer-trees, growing ketchup in the vegetable gardens of their mansions.....

[Gildor Inglorion]

2. What's important here is YOUR intention...

not the actual state of the recipient of charity. If you give money to the person intending to do good, that is no mistake at all. If you pass by pretending not to see or make a hateful remark, that is a mistake on your part. I remember someone once saying, "Because you did it not for the least of these my brethren, you did it not for me."

[IronLionZion]

3. Depends where you are.

This is not as easy as you make it sound. In some countries, beggar parents burn their children, cut off limbs, eyes, etc. to get sympathy. Plus there may be a gang of scoundrels waiting for you to pull out your wallet so they can grab it. That's why you should never give money to beggars in the third world.

That doesn't happen in the US, so it should be OK to give money.

I think snubbing a starving person is the worse of the two mistakes, but there are plenty of charities that will turn your money into food for these people. You can't buy a BMW with soup.

[Elidor]

4. I should have clarified

I'm not talking about someone who is threatening. As my girlfriend and I were just discussing, there are many homeless who are mentally ill and some who are simply dangerous. I've known some in my own travels as a homeless person, and if you feel at all threatened, by all means exercise good judgement and get away from them.

A few years back, Nashville closed down a mental hospital for the poor and opened a Dell Computer plant in its place, complete with corporate tax benefits. The homeless were turned out onto the street for the promise of jobs. All too typical of who we are as a people.

[davekriss]

5. How we treat the least amongst us...

I was in Penn Station a couple of years ago after living away from the city for a long time. I grew up in NY, but I guess all those years away softened my edge. When I was approached by a tall scruffy man in tattered clothes and asked for a dollar I shook my head "no" without saying a word.

He was used to such brush-offs and moved on, working others in the crowd. A little latter I saw him walk off by himself, run his hands through his hair and say to himself, "O God what am I gonna' do, I'm so hungry, I'm so tired. Then he walked off.

I looked down at my $200 shoes, my $800 suit (I had a pretty good job at the time) and walked after him, catching up near the escalators (he was still wispering, "what am I going to do? ... what do I do?"). I handed him a $20 bill. He literally had tears in his eyes, looked up and said softly, "thank you, thank you ... very ... much" and I turned to catch my train.

Love the blind and wounded as you would yourself
And the businessmen in cells collecting pennies
Judge their wealth by coins that they give away
And not the ones they keep themselves from spending

Never be impatient with the ones who love you
It might be yourself that you're burning
Listen only to their song and watch their eyes
For you might be the Prince of Peace returning

Chorus:
Never treat a brother like a passing stanger
Always try to keep the love light burning
Listen only to his song and watch his eyes
For he might be the Prince of Peace returning
Yes he might be the Prince of Peace returning

---Leon Russell, Prince of Peace

[Elidor]

7. Thank you for that

I know exactly how he felt. There is no lower feeling than having nowhere to go; than knowing the world will not blink if you should die tomorrow.

Leon Russell, too! Amen.

[silverlib]

6. Most are mentally retarded or psychologically impaired...

my husband says they are 'the children of God' and if we can't take care of them, as a nation, we are headed straight for hell. He really feels like they are the moral and ethical test of our nation, not necessarily just religiously. So guess what he thinks about Reagan and the neocons. And he's no Bible thumper - he just feels very strongly about this.

[FreedomReload]

8. Then You Have The People Who Say:

"Beggars are all drug addicts who will spend the money on their addiction, not food"

Which I reply: "If you think they will spend the money on drugs, why don't you ever buy one something to eat?"

This leads to confused looks, as if I were crazy for suggesting it. People who make such excuses aren't concerned about drug addiction, they just don't want to part with money.

[Djinn]

13. I changed my mind on this a few years back

I used to try and only give to those who didn't look like smack heads (I worked in an area notorious for heroin use) then I thought, fuck it - I like to get wasted every now and then (although alcohol and/or pot was my drug of choice) and I have a nice middle class house to go home to with food in the fridge and a heater to sit in front of and a loving supportive family who would back me up if I needed it.

Now I figure I'm not going to do anything useful with that couple of dollars anyway and if someone else can get over the indignity of asking a stranger for money then I'll give it to them. It's not like without I'm going to go hungry or cold.

Although I'm not a believer the phrase "There but for the grace of God go I" comes to mind each and every time I see someone down on their luck.

A good indicator of a society is how they treat those at the bottom - walking past them, pretending they're not there says something pretty scary about all of us

[davekriss]

9. Three stories about the homeless...

All from NYC, where I grew up. I was working for a film company (an editing house) and had a lot of time to spend on the street, going from sound stages on the west side, to sound engineers and post-production film houses in midtown. This was the late seventies; NYC was still a pretty dangerous and dirty city (think Travis Bickle's soliloquy in his cab with the windshield wipers beating away the rain).

First, I recall a guy that used to have a shopping cart full of stuff, his face waxen as if he wore a mask, and his hair shoe-polish black and slicked back hard as a helmut. He'd march up and down broadway playing with his drum sticks, tossing them up 20 feet in the air and catching them in perfect syncopation, never breaking a stride. A local talk show host -- argh, I can't recall his name! but any insomniac my age from NYC remembers his channel 9 or 11 late night talk show with his cheesy and has-been showbiz guests -- he had this guy on his show, he'd become a fixture, part of the city's character (albeit the underside). And when he spoke it could have been your Uncle Joe or brother Jimmie. There really was someone home in there, with a history of striving and failing and finally settling into his own lived-lines.

Second, there was this tall guy, with unkempt beard and hair spiking out from his head as if he stuck a finger in an electric socket (looked like a famous professor from Stony Brook who appeared in Midnight Cowboy). Always with many layers of jackets and pants on, all too small, ripping at the seems and exposing ankle and wrists. He must have been 6 foot 9 at least. Everyday he'd walk slowly through the crowded Pan Am Building concourse (Met Life building now), head held high as if proud, as if he knew he belonged there as much as any of the hundreds walking hurriedly by (the hundreds that didn't even sense his presence, this invisible regal giant). One winter I took a trip to Florida. And in Light House Point (just south of Boca Raton), there he was, sitting by himself on a medium of Federal Highway! Summers in NY and winters in Florida? Many of us strive to achieve the same!

Third, and last, towards the end of every day I used to have to take a bus up 5th avenue and change at 57th street to cut across town. At the northwest corner of the intersections there were several very trendy boutiques with extraordinarily expensive clothes. I'd see an old bag lady pull her bag up into an alcove every evening like clock work. She'd settle the bag, then take a rolled-up newspaper out and sweep the long sidewalk from the trendy boutique to the curb while rush hour men and women hurriedly step around her without paying her any mind. Some carelessly flicking a cigarette onto the just swept sidewalk. She'd pick it up and stumble after the perpetrator mumbling something no one could understand, then toss the butt in the trashcan, sweep and mumble some more, then settle in for the night.

She'd sit up against the wall of the boutique. Above her head, skinny mannequins held court in the windows, dressed in evening gowns that cost more money than she's likely ever seen. She'd settle there and spread her legs and ... pee. Long streams of urine would run down the sidewalk to the street. And whenever one of these hurried men and women, those who's peers just moments before paid her no mind, when one of these would step in the stream the old lady would laugh hysterically slapping her sides until she settled again, spread her legs, and worked up a fresh stream. I watched her do this for months, till I took another job.

We live in a strange universe where life fills every available niche -- and sidewalk. I've always felt more kindred to these than to those who run the ship of state. I always help when asked, when I can (change if not bills), and without exception I always give a kind word and a smile. Because 'It Might be the Prince of Peace returning'.

[Djinn]

16. The most indelible memory my brother & his mates

brought home from a trip to the USA was passing a homeless woman who was not only being ignored by passers by but being shoved out of the way, they gave her the spare money they had.

After browsing in a shop for a while they came out to see this same woman screaming and crying and desperately trying to put out a fire - they realised that someone had set fire to her bags.

It was more than ten years ago and that story still depresses the hell out of me. Sure if you don't want to give money to the homeless -fine, but why steal from them, assault them or even kill them.

NB - assaults on homeless people happen here too - I don't think it's an American invention

[thebigidea]

19. Joe Franklin of WOR!

"And now for a truly special tribute to Eddie Cantor, Ol' Banjo Eyes himself..."

[davekriss]

28. Yes, you remembered correctly, Mr. Nostalgia himself! (n/t)

[gold_bug]

10. the bigger mistake is

(1) allowing the mentally ill to become homeless. No other industrialized country has this problem on anywhere near the scale that the US does.

(2) failing to seek a way to treat alcohol and drug addiction -- instead wasting billions of dollars on a War on Drugs.

[Michael Costello]

23. Yes. Why give money?

I live in New York and am asked for money often. I do not give it. I will not give aid on an individual to individual basis, I will only do something as part of a group. The problem in the scenario is I would be giving as an individual, and he would be asking as an individual. Besides, there is plenty of food around in the delis and supermarkets available for them. That a pig will come and arrest them for ending their hunger is not something I support - that seems to be the problem more than anything. They just want me to help them avoid that confrontation with the policeman, something I am not willing to do, it's not my job to grease the wheels of a tyrannical system.

There are local groups like Food Not Bombs that feed the homeless. I am glad they exist but honestly I have written these people off and try to deal more with helping blue collar people organize themselves. I mean, these homeless people are a necessary part of our economic system, they are the surplus army of labor that allows for capitalist exploitation to exist.

Most of the politicians who have talked about the homeless problem in New York have talked about what the problem is - the nuisance of white collar workers having to see these people and be accosted by them for some change so they will not be hungry. I accept this as reality, their existence is not an anomaly to the system, but an essential part of capitalism, but people prefer them unseen, perhaps like the millions of black youth locked up in prisons and gulags around the US. When done there being all types of positive aspects of for the current system - rural communities will have jobs created for building and then guarding prisons, and these prisoners will count for district population votes for those conservative, rural districts even though the prisoners are almost always not allowed to vote.

[TexasMexican]

11. I give to some people, I dont give to others.

When I see the same guy with the same sign sitting under the freeway asking for money, I never give that guy money.

However if some random guy comes up to me and asks for some change I will usually oblige.

I dont usually give out dollar bills or anything like that but I usually keep a bunch of change in my car and I just grab a handful and give it to the guy.

I've only been asked maybe 2 or 3 times, and those people seemed really thankful for the handful of change, and I felt good afterwards, so I guess it was worth it.

I will not however give money to people who set up "shop."

[MaryBear]

12. The sin is to treat them as invisible.

I make eye contact and say, "Not today."

[geronimo]

14. i give when ever I can

regardless. If some guy on the corner asks me for change and I know he is using it for booze, then im all for it. If he/she would rather fill up on a bottle of scotch than a bowl of soup, then thats their choice. :toast:

I cant help to think when i see them, "what if that is me, what if I want a beer or a sand-which?" isn't it my right to choose?

and if this bushbastard keeps going the route he's going, who knows if they wont be in that same spot as that guy asking for a quarter?

[newyawker99]

25. Hi geronimo!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Elidor]

30. Yes!

Most people are aghast at the thought that someone at the end of their rope would want a buzz. When I was down and out, if I had money for even one beer after food and bus fare, I thanked my lucky stars for that one little bit of relief from my fate. It's a small enough favor.

And many people howl about enabling them. Hellfire, if this is the best thing that happens to them all day, who am I to judge them? If a crappy temp job as a day-laborer for starvation wages and a bowl of hot soup in a flophouse shelter is really the best we can offer them, I won't begrudge a soul some satisfaction.

[burrowowl]

15. My sister and I will tell someone who says they are hungary

lets go into the the nearest eatery and we buy them some eats and something to drinks. Lots have taken us up on the offer. Lots are hungary.

[TexasMexican]

17. Homeless people need beer too.

I havent actually looked into it, but I've been told that some people litterally need alcohol to survive because they have become so addicted to it.

I have a grandfather who is an alcoholic and when he doesnt get his beer he gets the shakes and other things. He usually gets his daily dose of beer though and doesnt cause trouble anymore.

[ConsAreLiars]

18. When traveling in India

I was confronted with thousands of beggars. I did as most westerners did. I gave up and ignored them all. But over the course of my time there I came to understand how I should have reacted. The custom among those who cared was simple. Give each and every one a small amount. In India this meant a penny (10 Paise) or two. Over the course of a day or week I will run across a predictable number of folks asking for help, and this will cost a predictable amount. Adjust the size of the contribution accordingly.

So, the question is only how much one is willing to give. 10 bucks a week and you are asked five times - give two dollars. You feel you can spare $25.00 and pass 100 who hold out their hands, carry a roll of quarters and give out two per capita.

As for trying to decide amounts based on "worthiness" or "true need," well, that's way beyond my ability and essentially irrelevant.

[Delano]

20. If I were middle class, I'd feel guilty..

but I'm on a very low income in a very expensive city (SF). It would take very little to put my family and I on the streets too, so I seldom give, and I don't think I should feel guilty. Society (the government) should be taking care of this, not us, and not the so-called "charities" The burden should be spread equally among everybody, not just pedestrians being guilted into giving a buck, and rich a-holes who want their ego stroked by having a wing at the homeless shelter named after them.

[oscar111]

21. Die 3X normal rate-Source?

I recall yrs back, reading of a boston study that found the hmlss die at 3X the normal rate.

I have not had time to track down the study.

Anyone know of it? Link would be nice, but not necessary. Just let me know if you also read of it.

At that rate, 7000 excess deaths / month now.

[oscar111]

22. $4Billion or $200Million ends hmlssness

Using section 8 vouchers and avg rents, it would cost 4 B to end all hmlessness.

But using barracks style bunk beds crammed into housing, for emergency temp method for immediate end, would only cost 200 million.

Compare $200 Million to bush project ideas.

His moon landing for example. Or the INTL SPACE STATION.

MEMORIZE THAT $200 MILLION number!
PS. on any one night, 1 million sleep on the sidewalk. Because some rise out, and some sink in, over a yr, 3 million are involved for a time. 1 million sheltered beds are needed to end the atrocity.

[outinforce]

24. Another "Sin" You Failed To Mention

Is enabling destructive behavior in another human being.

Like giving someone hook on acohol money to buy her/his next drink.

Giving someone money may make YOU feel good, but that's often all it really does.

Most big cities have shelters and provide, either through municipal centers or even churches, places where people can live and where people can get something to eat.

If you really want to help hungry people, then do something that address the problem that causes people to live on the streets. And sometimes that means addressing the problem of substance abuse. Sometimes it means other things.

[Elidor]

27. Shelter space is at a premium

There were plenty of nights I couldn't get into a shelter because the line started forming shortly after noon, and I'd been out looking for work all day. It's a mistake to think, "There are shelters for people like them." And some of the shelters are pretty bad, even by homeless standards. And if you're in a rural area, shelters are scarce at best.

Anyway, this wasn't about ending the homeless problem - far too big a topic for one thread - it's about compassion, as measured by a simple hypothetical question. My thanks to everyone who responded.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

26. I think people overanalyze panhandling.

Look at the first two choices:

Being fooled into giving a couple bucks to someone who doesn't really need it.
Snubbing someone who hasn't eaten yet today and doesn't yet know where they will sleep tonight



To me, it's not about whether someone 'really needs it' or not. Someone doesn't have to be in the extreme situation of 'not having eaten yet today and not knowing where they will sleep tonight' in order for me to be willing to share with them.

If someone asks me for spare change, I simply decide whether I have any change to spare and whether I feel like giving it to them. I don't try to judge them in order to decide whether they 'deserve' it.


(btw I voted 'I have been homeless')

[West Coast Democrat]

29. I couldn't possibly give change to every homeless person who asks....

I wouldn't have enough money left to buy my own lunch.