Re: Reagan - please show some respect!

[robbedvoter]

Not a sanctimonious post.
I am not celebrating Reagan - or anyone's death. I don't hate Reagan. I also do not have the slightest sense of loss, melancoly, sympathy for his family, his party , his mourners.
I am trying to be respectful of the DU-ers who for some reason feel the need to mourn. I will not try to question the origin of the fuzzy warm memories in their head - is it real or is it memorex?

But, please, please, try do the same for me: do not tell me what to feel, who should I feel sorry for, how to dress, whom shall I not offend. Especially don't attempt to label me because I don't subscribe to your ritualistic "death erases truth" ceremony.

[UrbScotty]

1. Amen. (nt)

[dsc]

2. One of the ways I define respect

is avoiding putting words in people's mouths.

[salin]

8. you mean like equating calls for civility

as equal to mourning reagan?

Never realized til this weekend that to call for politeness - not curbing criticism... not even trying to force politeness/civility in word choice... is to be as reviled as anything on the right.

Never realized that free speech was only to be accorded to those who are uncivil. That to react to that speech - especially when it climbed far over the top.. to react is not free speech. Only the offensive, apparently, is protected.

[dsc]

35. yeah that is pretty much what I meant

[sui generis]

3. ditto

[Gman]

4. Sorry, but...

Fuck Reagan. He was a no-good sorry SOB that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Central America. Not to mention the fact he put millions of working people out to live on the street. Remember?? Just because the sorry SOB/unindicted crimes against humanity criminal died is no reason to not deny the hard truth about the man.

[bemildred]

7. Amen. nt

[Walt Starr]

14. Bravo

Reagan ended civility in politics, now the chickenhawks are coming home to roost.

[wndycty]

20. And then it seems you are proud to live down to his standards. . .

. . .as dad told me, "don't be as bad as everyone else, be better."

[Walt Starr]

24. If we don't, the right sees us as weak

and attacks.

We were civil in 2000. Bush stole the election.

We were civil in 2002. Bush hoodwinked us on the IWR and ended up with control of the Senate.

Being civil gets us exactly DICK!

[wndycty]

30. I thought we weren't supposed to care what the right thinks. . .

. . .to me its more important what we think of ourselves. Celebrating Reagan's death is not the same as protesting Florida. Walt, I have been waiting for you to tell me what we have to gain by celebrating Reagan's death. C'mon bruh, tell me what do we have to gain? How will the right see us as weak because we actually try to carry ourselves with dignity.

[Walt Starr]

32. I get a nice warm fuzzy feeling

It makes me feel much better.

Fuck being civil with the right. It's never worked before and I feel better dancing on the grave of an evil evil man.

[wndycty]

37. Other than your nice warm fuzzy feeling. . .

. . .how does it help. . .do we now have an advantage going into November? How does your nice warm fuzzy feeling? Other than getting your rocks off how does this help, you pointed to 2000 and 2002 how does this help? C'mon man, I would like to think if you brought up 2000 and 2002 you are getting more than a warm fuzzy feeling.

[Walt Starr]

40. It makes me feel better

That's all that's necessary.

Fuck the evil puke. I only wish he could have been in agonizing pain one year for every life he took.

On Edit: I would also add, dancing on this evil fuck's grave makes it more likely I'll actually take the time necessary to actually vote for a Democratic Candidate I loathe almost as much.

[wndycty]

41. Its all about you Walt, its all about you. . .

. . .so your reference to 2000 and 2002 were just lame attempts to justify your actions.

[Walt Starr]

42. Read the fucking edit

n/t

[wndycty]

44. Throws in a Kerry slam. . .

. . .LOL I am so glad you are on our team <sarcasm>. The more you talk the more you demonstrate what your priorities are. The man actually finds a way to slam Kerry in a discussion on Reagan. So glad to have you on the team <sarcasm>

[Walt Starr]

49. Yeah?

I live out in Republican Country in the suburbs. My car has one of two Kerry bumper stickers I've seen in the entire neighborhood. I live on a well traveled road and have paid for a Kerry sign to put in the yard and yes, I've donated to the Kerry campaign several times in small amounts, with a bigger donation coming because of the Reagan death.

So yes, I hate the fuck who's running for president under the Democratic ticket. Tell me, who's more committed to getting rid of the fucking chimp, me or some Kerry sycophant?

[wndycty]

51. Wow. . .

. . .now you want credit for hating the fuck for who is running for president but having a bumper sticker and yard sign. Poor Walt, its all about you man, its all about you. Hey everybody Walt thinks Kerry is a fuck who is running for president but he has a bumper sticker and yard sign so obviously he is more committed to getting rid of the fucking chimp than som Kerry sycophant. All praise due Walt Starr.

[Walt Starr]

52. You forgot the dontated cash

:eyes:

[wndycty]

55. Again wow. . .

. . .Walt has donated cash to Kerry! Stop the presses. . .do you want a cookie?

[Walt Starr]

56. Yes, chocolate chip

:eyes:

[Gman]

65. It doesn't get you anything

when you're civil with assholes and jerks.

[Carolina]

47. yeah, it gets us dicked

[salin]

46. as someone said this weekend... it is the ultimate honor to Reagan

in the sense of immitation being a sincere form of flattery.

[King Coal]

21. Damn straight.

Piss on him.

[King Coal]

23. And Piss on the Queen of England too.

[mistertrickster]

26. Agreed. He led the team that brought us Michael Deaver, Lee Atwater,

and Roger Ailes. These are the guys that turned political dialogue into the advertising image and rational debate into character assassination of the most vicious kind.

(Roger Ailes is now at Fox News, btw . . .)

Lucky for Reagan's departed soul, there's an all-merciful God.

[rbnyc]

71. I'm with you, Gman. (nt)

[outinforce]

5. Please

We live in a society -- or at least most of us live in a society.

And that means that it is not in the best of form to go around intentionally offending people.

So, while I would never tell you or anyone else how to feel, or who you should feel sorry for, or how to dress (although the law does, I think, put certain restrictions on what a person can wear in public without getting arrested), I most definitely will tell you whom you should not offend. And that would be most everyone.

And why do you feel that respect for the dead (who, after all, cannot speak back to someone who has defamed them) is a nihlistic "death erases truth"??

History -- not us -- will judge Reagan, just as it has judged every other President and world leader.

[robbedvoter]

12. "Not offend anyone?" And you successfully live by this motto?

Or delude yourself you do? because. I tell ya what, your motto offends me.
Because my motto is:

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those, who in a time of great crisis, maintain their neutrality." – Dante

So, that means the pussyfooters are going to hell.
I intend to offend the torturing fascists as gravely as I can by hurling the truth in their faces. And speaking of truth, remember when Carter won the Nobel Prize for peace? The national pride, the cheering from everyone? remember? I don't.

[outinforce]

25. Gee

So now you get to judge the eternal place of residence for lots and lots of people.

YOu get to say who goes to hell and who doesn't.

I know some televangelists who try that very same trick.

THEY come accross as terribly judgmental and condemning.

I do remember when Jimmy Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize.

And I also remember when Mother Teresa won it as well.

I have mentioned Mother Teresa's winning of the Nobel Peace Prize on a couple of DU threads I have posted to.

And do you know what reaction I get? I get the reaction that Mother Teresa was a mean, bad, evil person.

One poster even told me that the Nobel Peace Prize does not mean that the person wo won it has done anything special.

I recall things a bit differently from you. There was, as I recall it, a real sense of National Pride when Carter won the Nobel Prize. I guess people remember what they want to.

[Tomee450]

72. Jimmy Carter

"And speaking of truth, remember when Carter won the Nobel Prize for peace? The national pride, the cheering from everyone? remember? I don't."

I have also been thinking about the reaction to Carter's winning of the Prize There was very little cheering. It was as if Carter was was undeserving. I felt sad over the way he was treated for he is truly a good man.

[puppeteer]

29. History will decide? Maybe.

If you look at what the Republicans have been doing to make Reagan look like the "Best President EVER" over the past few years:

Baltimore-Washington International -> RR International Airport
Reagan Turnpike - Florida
Reagan Freeway - SoCal
USS Ronald Reagan

These are only a couple of what I could find online in a minute or two, but i'm sure we all could find SOMEthing named after RR in our state.

A good place to look for some perspective is www.reaganlegacy.org. The best I can sum this up is that a bunch of Repubs want to Freep the USA with all 3006 counties in the US having some shrine to the 2nd or 3rd worst president.

While I do respect the man for at least believing in most of the swill he peddled, the bottom line is he divided this country more than any other president before Shrub and widened the lines between the rich and everyone else. Not to mention presided over one of the most criminal administrations since McKinley and only trumped by the current one.

Anyway, the danger we face is that the current generation of Republicans, but especially the NeoCons will do (are doing) everything they can to push the image that Reagan was the "Best President EVER."

Prime example: The appointment of Weinstein as the National Archivist. This guy is a staunch Repub partisan in a position which by design should be non-partisan, as its sole purpose is to truthfully record the deeds (good and bad) of the government (and coincidentally, the president).

Almost forgot, the current archivist (appointed by Clinton, of course) was generally perceived as being forced out by Shrub. Do you really think an archivist appointed by Bush and a right-wing partisan is REALLY going to let "History -- not us" judge Reagan?

They've already got a hell of a head start on spinning Reagan as the "Best President EVER." Now that he's died, it's just going to get worse.

PS: Anyone who's seen Rock and Roll High School should remember that the particular high school was named Ronald Reagan High. When the film was made, that was quite the joke. There are hundreds of RR 's all over the country. Who's laughing now?

[NYCGirl]

53. Your PS is incorrect...

PS: Anyone who's seen Rock and Roll High School should remember that the particular high school was named Ronald Reagan High. When the film was made, that was quite the joke. There are hundreds of RR 's all over the country. Who's laughing now?

The high school in Rock 'n Roll High School was Vince Lombardi High. As a Ramones fan, I just had to set the record straigh.

[outinforce]

66. BWI AIrport is Still Safe!!

Baltimore Washington International Airport has Not -- repeat NOT -- had its name changed (Well it was at one poinjt called "Friendship" Airport, but that doesn't count).

It is still called Baltimore-Washington International Airport (BWI to its friends)

National Airport, on the other hand , is now Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport.

[H2O Man]

6. At the Onondaga Nation

(the Fire Keepers of the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy) there is a custom regarding death: you do not speak ill of the person publicly until at least the funeral is over. There are several reasons for that, the most obvious being that the goal of human beings should be reconciliation and unity. I opposed Reagan's policies as much as any human being in America when he was president. I would not have wanted to be in the same room with him. But I do not take pleasure in the suffering of any person.

[bemildred]

10. They also engaged in ritual cannibalism.

But I don't suppose we are supposed to imitate that.

[H2O Man]

16. sad.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the story about the first Tadodaho, which is the source of the "cannibalism" stories ..... unless you have information unknown to any serious anthropologist today .... and the story, like so many, is rich in symbolism. But the first Tadodaho was indeed a person with a twisted mind, and the message known as the Power of the Good Mind helped to heal his emotional turmoil. You might want to study that message.

[bemildred]

19. The stories pop up in quite a number of original sources.

Try googling "Iroquois cannibalism" and see what you get.
You do not decide who is and is not a "serious anthropologist".
William T. Vollman's book "Fathers and Crows" is a fascinating
novelization of the history of the French interaction with the
First Peoples.

But opinions do vary. The point is that the Iroqois and their
doings are irrelevant to the present discussion.

[H2O Man]

28. Actually, there is no serious

anthropologist who would quote a novel as a source for a challenged claim. But be that as it may, the Haudenosaunee -- who were the major influence on the "founding Fathers" -- are indeed very relevent today. Onondaga is recognized by native peoples' around the globe as having the authority to speak for Taditional Peoples. If you are not in a frame of mind that allows you to grasp that, it's okay. But your novel approach is hardly of more significance than that of the Onondaga.

[bemildred]

34. I am not a "serious anthropologist" so I can quote whatever I like.

It was not quoted as an academic source, but as an interesting
book. But I see any attempt at civil discourse is wasted here.
The Onondaga have zippity-doo-dah to do with modern politics.
Have a nice day.

[H2O Man]

39. Well, they are

called upon to speak for the traditional people of the world at the United Nations, and have been to Washington DC and Moscow to talk to the highest elected officials in both countries about environmental issues and human rights. Some might think their attempts at civil discourse with a man like George Bush Sr. were wasted, but I disagree. It's always important to try to talk to someone, even those who confuse novels with reality.

[bemildred]

63. Pompous assertions of one's own knowledge and authority do

not constitute an argument Sir, although Lord Knows we see
plenty of the sort of blowhard that will make the attempt
here. Again, have a nice day.

[H2O Man]

64. I have no need to argue.

Let me explain: If one person put a post on here about black culture, and another person responded by saying that black culture is of no significance, because all blacks are Uncle Toms ..... and backed that argument up by saying they had read Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel, Uncle Tom's Cabin ..... it would be safe to say that person's beliefs were ignorant at best, and verged uncomfortably on racism. Now, Stowe's novel is indeed wonderful, but it is a window that merely lets us examine the mind-set of a segment of white people at that time. I would not think of engaging in an argument with an ignorant person, or a racist one. Yet I would engage in a gentle conversation, if only to show them that a closed mind, much like a closed room, rapidly becomes stuffy. I do thank you for wishing me a good day; I believe that every day is a great day, as life is a miracle, something we should always be open to. I wish you as good of a day as I wish those I count as my best of friends.

[EdGy]

9. "death erases truth"

I love that.

it's a perfect description of what's going on in the media now.

Although come to think of it, truth was well erased even before death...

[Vickers]

11. Honestly, I'd go elsewhere to mourn Ronnie

There are plenty of places on the net and in real life where folks are coming together to mourn his death.

This ain't one of 'em.

[robbedvoter]

15. Now that's a common sense advice. Brings up an interesting question:

Why would ANYONE feel compelled to flaunt his love for Reagan on DU?

[AntiCoup2K4]

33. Freeps can't help themselves

Reagan is their God

They have literally taken him as a false Messiah, and they will be shatterred when he's not up and walking around again tomorrow morning. So when they see someone bashing Reagan, or even simply telling the truth about his pathetic legacy, they can't help themselves, let alone maintain their cover at a "goddamn librul" board.

[foreigncorrespondent]

13. Sorry, but I can't!

I haven't actually said anything about his death yet, but I am not about to bend over to please the right wing. That man did nothing but shit upon my community when he sat back and did nothing for AIDS! He doesn't deserve any queers being nice to him.

I hope the old bastard is enjoying his new life in hell!

[THUNDER HANDS]

17. All this Reagan bashing is really rather sad

The man wasn't the greatest president ever, but he was honestly elected, twice, and his kids turned out okay.

Jeez, the man died a slow, painful, horrible death that subjected his family to years and years of heartache and pain. If that's not enough justice for some people here I don't know what will be.

Let him be at peace.

[bemildred]

27. He is at peace.

We, however, are still left with his "legacy".

[robbedvoter]

38. There you go again telling me what to do (Wow! I quoted raygun)

You are entitled to your sadness as I am to my lack of it.
And why not take THIS particular feeling to places where people might be sympathetic to you? Why do you want to fling your tears at me? I just changed into fresh clothes.

[THUNDER HANDS]

48. I'm not sad

I'm saying the post-death trashing of someone isn't exactly classy and is a sad commentary on the nature of some people.

Aren't we supposed to be the bleeding hearts, here?

[Tyler Durden]

43. ?????????

Michael Reagan, that Rush wannabe turned out just fine alright.

Nope. Sorry. Fuck Reagan. Just his disregard for healthcare alone made his slow death poetic justice. I wish he'd lived another 10 years, brain turned to cheese and shitting his pants.

[THUNDER HANDS]

54. and Ron Reagan Junior turned out okay

Look, Reagan was a bad president, but he doesn't deserve this. If you believe in karma, he got what was coming to him. Enough said.

There were worse presidents than Reagan and worse human beings. Personally, I'd take 8 years of Reagan over 4 years of Bush, but that's just me.

I just don't understand the point of continuing to hate someone even after their death. What is to be gained?

[Tyler Durden]

67. Maybe I should forgive Hitler?

How many millions died from AIDS that didn't have to if Reagan hadn't distained to even recognize it as a problem?

We got 4 years of Bush I and 4 years of Bush II thanks to Reagan and the rebirth of the Neocon.

I hated him before he was President, I hated him while he was President, and I have hated him up to this very second.

It has nothing to do with him being alive or dead: he is a symbol of all that is rotten at the core of the nation: winking at discord, elitism, racism, greed, religious bigotry. Shit, he's probably worse dead than he was alive: now he can be the right wing's icon: prayed to for miracles.

I have had dear friends die from him and the attitudes he made socially acceptable (for right wing Neocon rePukes, anyway).

Fuck him. I'd piss in his open casket on national TV if I could get away with it.

[Carolina]

50. honestly elected

through false advertising and deceit.

And during most of his life he had little to do with his kids.

... painful death, I think not. While Alzheimer's is dreadful, it's actually worse on the caretakers and I'm sure they and palliative drugs were plentiful in Ronnie's case.

May those who suffered and died because of his policies rest in peace!

[buddhamama]

60. there's that word again "Bashing"

oh how i detest that word.

People are not bashing Reagan there are speaking truthfully
about the MAN. There are no stupid comments about his hair, or his height or any number inane comments that could be made.

It is Reagan who gave us the mess we're in now-
Iraq, Afghanistan, bin Laden, etc.

He is responsible for the deaths of countless
through his policies.

The wars.

He single handedly destroyed honest journalism in this country,
and left us Corporate Media.

He will and should be spoken about for yrs to come.
We must never forget Reagan's Legacy.

[MadHound]

62. Read your history MR

Reagan WASN'T elected honestly the first time, 1980, thanks to a little thing called the October Suprise. He was estranged from his children for much of his life, and I really wouldn't describe them as turning out OK. He is also the man who, as govenor of CA, called for a bloodbath on our college campuses. Oh, and then there are those hundreds of thousands of deaths on HIS hands due to HIS policies regarding everything from AIDS to covert war in Central America. The media is touting Reagan as restoring America's sense of "national pride", but looking closer, you will see that what Reagan "restored" was a jingoistic nationalism that laid the groundwork for most sheeple Americans to cheer on everything from Iran-Contra to our current Iraq war. This is the same sort of national mood that laid the groundwork for the rise of Nazism in an earlier era, and is laying the basis for American facism now.

And quite frankly, after watching the Reagan administration butcher the poor and middle class with cuts in both mental and physical health, I consider his death via Alzheimers to be a certain karmic justice. I had good friends of mine, Vietnam Vets, who were denied benefits under Reagan, back when they decided not to help those who had suffered from Agent Orange. THEY died a slow horrible painful death from Lupus and other similar diseases, yet the Reagan administration saw fit to deny these VETRANS medical help, for to admit to the existence of these conditions would cost the government money that Reagan thought better spent on goddamn Star Wars! Where is the sympathy for these victims of Reagan's actions? Where is the outrage over their death?

I won't be out dancing in the street to celebrate Reagan's death, but neither will I celebrate the man's life. I will simply remain quiet unless asked, and then will tell the truth as I see it, that at best Reagan was a willing tool of the emergin neocon agenda, and at worst he was a genocidal thug who wouldn't care for a person's life unless he condsidered that person to be his social and political equal.

[Malva Zebrina]

18. the man was 93 years old and had Alzheimers for at least ten years

he never had a good relationship with his children, I understand, and even if they had a reconciliation, he died, in effect and left them ten years ago--they have been mourning and I suspect have accepted the loss long ago. They may have actually viewed this as a blessing, as many people do.

People are projecting on this family what they think the family, Nancy or whatever, are going through. I suspect it is relief.

Now we have a national holiday declared for an evil man whose majot accomplishments were harmful, while few were helpful--

we are really nuts in this country. We set up a criminal, an evil man who did much to harm many people as a saint, and we let another evil man, who is even more evil than Reagan, who has done harm and murder to many more people, get away with it. Ahd we will then teach our children when Bush dies, what a saint he was and we should have a national day shut down to honor him.

[Spentastic]

36. That's a very good point

My Grandmother suffered for about 12 years as her brain slowly betrayed her. At the end she knew no one, was scared of everything and her life was a pitiful thing. On hearing of her death, only one word sprang to mind “good”.

The family lost Ronald Reagan years ago

[Snellius]

22. Maybe we can also respect why many of us deeply detest this man

Yes, there's a time and place. Reagan's protracted illness has perhaps made that time and place more obscure. But, having lived in Berkeley in the 60s, in the context of another war and a real revolution, and watched a Reagan very different from the smiling, optimistic, gentle cosmetic face that the media myth machine has painted on him, I welcome this chance to heckle him one last time.

Later, when he was crowned actor in chief, his presidency was perhaps even more unbearable than today. Largely because, thanks to his mindless "charm" so many Americans bought into his tough-guy cowboy conservative crap.

So I can only hope you can respect the deep feelings others here have against Ronald Reagan, and the need to scream back for one last time.

[jrthin]

31. Another AMEN!

[Carolina]

45. respect is

earned! Reagan didn't earn it in life, and death doesn't change that. Honor and respect those who merit it. PERIOD.

[shanti]

57. no

and i resent being told how to act by YOU.

[tnlefty]

58. I've become increasingly confused and maybe you can help me out...

I don't understand when relaying facts about someone or events became bashing. The facts, the truth, I thought stood on their own.

Further, I'm not sure what this phrase, pissing or dancing on someone's grave, is supposed to mean. If it means that facts or truths are to be suppressed or altered aren't we going to have to rewrite a lot of history books?

[randr]

59. His passing and the neocon celebration

accompanying it is opening old wounds.
As I look back across the American political landscape I now have a very clear understanding that RR was the one person responsible for the divisions that exist in our society today.
His derision toward "the left" and anyone who disagreed with his "more moral" vision inspired the Rush Limbaughs of the world. He made offensive language politically correct as long as the "liberals" were the offended ones.
People who had been the racist exemplars of the bottom of American thought were given a champion and they have never returned to the rat holes they crawled out of.

[Cannikin]

61. Neil Bortz is on the radio reading "supposedly" from DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1738713

[Tyler Durden]

68. Neil Boortz can go fuck himself too.

With a 14" dildo and no astroglide.

I have had it up to here with people who think I'm a commie/junkie/traitor/child/moron/etc. for my political and social beliefs.

Fuck them all. Every last one of them on the right.

[Ganja Ninja]

70. Neil Boortz would never bother to quote from DU when we're busy

putting right a BFEE lie. Fair and balanced he ain't.

[Walt Starr]

69. Yeah, show some respect like MSRNC or Faux right now!!!

who showed Nancy Reagan breaking down in front of the casket during the "private" viewing.

:eyes:

[MISSDem]

73. What's the big deal?

He's been gone for at least ten years already.