It's All About MEEEEEEE, Who Cares About Anyone Else!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

I have always believed in the slogan, "Think globally, act locally." So it is generally with some dismay that I consistently read threads here at DU that make me roll my eyes and sometimes even scowl in disgust.

See, it's a very American failing that, IMO, causes people to think, "Fuck the rest of the world, I am AN INDIVIDUAL, GODDAMNIT! So I will say whatever the hell I want, whenever the hell I want, because I have FREE SPEECH and NO ONE can tell me otherwise! Being a liberal means FUCK THE SYSTEM, and if you don't agree, FUCK YOU!"

Here's a news flash: yes, everyone on the Internet has the power to say whatever the fuck they want, whenever the fuck they want to. So people are completely free to act like complete assholes and morons, whenever they so choose. There's no accountability, after all, so who gives a damn? IT'S ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL, GODDAMNIT! ME, ME, ME! AND I'LL BE DAMNED IF ANYONE WILL CENSOR ME OR SHUT ME UP!"

So go nuts with your bad self. Ooh, you are such a badass, railing at the heavens on an Internet message board. You are such an INDIVIDUAL. You are UNIQUE.

Yet in my view, it says more about a person who chooses to REFRAIN from bullshit spew. It says more about a person who thinks about issues larger than himself or herself. It says more about a person who thinks globally, and acts locally.

Does DU matter in the grand scheme of things? Perhaps not. Perhaps it's all just a big festival of mental masturbation. I suspect that's often the case.

But as someone who would cut his arm off to depose Bush and elect John Kerry, I have to say that I am always thinking globally, and acting locally. I refrain from being a typical Los Angeles asshole on the freeway (even though I have absolutely been that asshole in the past), because I have a John Kerry bumper sticker on my car. I choose to proselytize to my co-workers and friends, because I know that one-on-one discussion is often the best way to win converts. I work my ass off on the volunteer grassroots effort and try to raise thousands of dollars for John Kerry, because I believe every minute and every dollar counts.

And when November comes around, I know that I will be able to say with a clear conscience that I did EVERYTHING IN MY POWER to depose Bush and elect Kerry.

So when I see people say, "Who cares what Andrew Sullivan thinks," or "Who cares what Rush thinks," or "Who cares about Ronald Reagan dying," it always makes my teeth itch. The answer is, maybe a few hundred undecided voters care about what Andrew Sullivan thinks, and maybe a few thousand undecided voters care about what Rush thinks, and maybe a few million undecided voters who actually voted for REAGAN might care about how people respond to his death.

Florida was decided by less than 600 votes. And the election was decided by two electoral votes.

Maybe DU is completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things. After these last few days, I kind of hope that's the case.

Regardless, I know that I will have a clear conscience, no matter what.

DTH

[Sandpiper]

1. If only we could all be as good a human being as you are

n/t

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. It's Really Not That Hard

All it takes is a certain bare minimum level of thoughtfulness.

DTH

[Sandpiper]

7. In other words

Being a self righteous school marm?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

13. Nah, Just Common Courtesy and Common Sense

No school experience necessary.

DTH

[FizzFuzz]

101. what have you got against women in the teaching profession?

would you say the same thing using male teachers as an idiom for uptight judgemental prudishness?

[Sandpiper]

113. Oh brother

:eyes:

And in the interest of gender equity:

Oh sister

:eyes:

[RapidCreek]

72. In other words

you might not cut your arm off to depose bush....you'll cut off your integrity though. A victory built on tacit acceptance of evil and honoring it's perpetrators whether alive or dead...is not a victory.

It is a perpetuation of that which makes possible the asencion of those you claim you want to depose.

Your hollow, self serving, self righteous, sanctimony makes MY teeth itch.

RC

[Renew Deal]

5. Don't patronize him.

It's really unnecessary. At least he has the guts to call some people out on here. I like to recommend this place to people. Some people are surprised I hang out here because I am not a real leftist. I am more liberal-democrat than far left. Some of the shit that happened on here the other day has made us all look bad. That includes people like me who are proud of being here.

[Rowdyboy]

14. I used to reccomend this site to friends-even my priest...

Those days are long gone. DU is my private indulgence-most adults I know don't have the stomach....

[thebigidea]

16. forgive me father, for I have visited DU.

[Rowdyboy]

Actually, he was quite interested...As a VietNam vet he really

enjoyed the links to the "chickenhawk" website and likes to use that reference in his sermons. Its just the hate bullshit that turned him off.

[Forkboy]

15. "At least he has the guts to call some people out on here."

And some of us had the guts to say what we felt about Reagan.

The difference? We attacked someone on the right.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

18. Forkboy My Friend, It Takes Zero Guts

To call ANYONE out on an anonymous Internet message board. I am certainly not ascribing any especial courage to myself for this post.

DTH

[Forkboy]

23. But Bleachers was

And I think it takes courage to speak your mind anywhere,online or off.Many dont have that confidence to do either,and that's a shame.You should ascribe courage to your post :shrug:

But at least you spanked us in a nicer way than comparing us to Fred Phelps as one of my fav posters did.

And trust me,there's nothing I say online that doesn't get said offline,and usually to a more hostile audience :)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

25. LOL

You are still my bro, Forkboy.

:loveya:

DTH

[Forkboy]

26. Thanks DTH

I feel the same way about you :toast:

[Renew Deal]

28. I think it takes some guts...

To put yourself out there for ridicule. And you are right, many don't have the guts. It's actually a liberating experience.

[Renew Deal]

19. There is a difference.

It's one thing to attack Reagan the way Palast did. That's rough, but it's largely issue oriented. The: I have been waiting 24 years so I can piss on his grave type stuff is out of line IMHO.

[Forkboy]

30. Key part of your post

"IMHO"

I respect that.Please respect my humble opinion that it's not out of line and we'll all be ok :)

on edit-Let me clarify also that I dont feel DTH's post was an "attack" on the left.It's a heart felt opinion and not an attack.I was referring to some of the other posts,especially the Fred Phelps one which was such bullshit the stink came through my monitor.

[Renew Deal]

33. Of course

I haven't proposed deleting anything or censuring stuff. I just personally am not doing it.

EDIT: Though I knew that Mopaul post was trouble from the second I saw the subject.

[mopaul]

65. my middle name is trouble.........do i frighten you?

[Renew Deal]

105. lol

No, you are just right. :thumbsup:

[Renew Deal]

2. Nice post DTH

I know how hard you work and I applaude you for it. I also agree with your line of thinking.

[thebigidea]

4. Ooh, you are such a badass, railing at the heavens

[DoveTurnedHawk]

8. I Stand By My Words and Practice What I Preach

And I use the word "preach" quite knowingly.

DTH

[thebigidea]

9. You are such an INDIVIDUAL. You are UNIQUE.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. I Don't Wear It on My Sleeve

I am perfectly willing to act like the Borg if I have to, if it means a John Kerry win.

DTH

[thebigidea]

12. it says more about a person who chooses to REFRAIN from bullshit spew

[salin]

6. I hear ya DTH

but I think there are a whole lot of deaf ears around here.

[Forkboy]

17. What?

:evilgrin:

[Rowdyboy]

11. DTH, as is so often the case, you express

my thoughts more eloquently, and with less nastiness, than I possibly can. Thanks for being an prime example of mature adult behavior and an appropriate reaction to Reagan's death.

I hated the SOB with all my soul, but I don't think its necessary to gloat about a sick old man dying to make myself feel better. Celebrating anyone's death is just plain "tacky and trashy", the two behaviors my older female relatives most looked down on...

[donhakman]

21. I am tolerant and understanding of anger

I can't imagine the kind of day some people may have had prior to posting. Perhaps they had a real Dilbert day. Maybe they have a Dilbert boss and maybe they can't go for a run or play drums to let off some steam.

What I am concerned about is if someone deliberately stalkes, baits or commits ad hominum attacks on another individual.

Otherwise, its just a slice of life.

[cestmoi]

107. You make a good point.

However I think that ranting allows people to believe they are actually doing something. Yeah sometimes people need to let off steam but doveturnedhawk is right to say that dialogue with fence sitters is the crucial element in turfing Shrub.

[checks-n-balances]

20. I totally agree. We can have a big spewfest now and play right into

the hands of the RW. Or self-restraint now, keep eyes on the prize, and have great delirious fun later after all the hard work is done. Which approach is the wise one? What's it worth? The choice is ours.

I say "we" but I don't think everyone here wants to have a free-for-all right now. There are lots more important things to do and let's not abuse our privilege to inform one another about the things that do matter. If the whole world is watching us, how else can we pass on & use our ideas/strategies that may make a difference in November? Just MHO...

[linazelle]

22. I got lost at "...Florida was decided by less than 600 votes..."

I think you know the story there. It was decided, but not based on 600 votes at all--comparing Florida 2000 to undecideds is like comparing apples and oranges.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

24. Like Many Things in Life, There are Multiple Causes

If any one of a dozen things had broken our way, we would have won Florida, and hence, won the election.

DTH

[linazelle]

35. Florida 2000 was not about things breaking "our way" it was about theft

of votes that were decided and that had evidence of voter intent. So again, the Florida issue is irrelevant to the point you seem to be making.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

40. I Repeat: If Any of a Dozen Things Had Broken Our Way, We Would Have Won

1) Butterfly ballot.
2) Nader.
3) Felon purge.
4) Earlier campaigning in FL by Gore.
5) Gore choosing a recount across all counties.
6) Different calculation on the absentees.
7) No intimidation of Black voters.
8) Penelas not being a shit.
9) One of the counties (the one that was attacked by the GOP staffers) finishing their count.
10) Secretary of State decision.
11) Supreme Court decision.
12) BBV?

DTH

[Sandpiper]

31. And I'm sure the 90,000 who voted for Nader

Would be just horrified that someone would say unkind things about Ronald Reagan. :eyes:

[BeFree]

27. Nice try, but I ain't buying

You are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

The worst president the US ever had, until now, dies, finally, and not in prison like he should have, and you want me to keep my mouth shut because it might offend some reagan-ass kissing fart brained sheeple?

No way, jose. You keep up your good work getting Kerry elected but don't ever tell me I can't have my say about ronald fucking reagan.

Peace

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. Who's Saying You "Can't" Have Your Say?

This is an anonymous message board hosted in America. You can say whatever you want.

All I'm saying is that sometimes, your choices have consequences. Sometimes those consequences are meaningless. Other times, they might mean something quite significant.

DTH

[thebigidea]

32. well, we might as well start blaming mopaul for losing the election now

[DoveTurnedHawk]

34. Think Globally, Act Locally

Who anyone blames is up to that person.

My conscience will be clear, however.

DTH

[linazelle]

42. Hooey Alert: It's all so clear to me now

This thread is to scare people into refraining from voicing their opinions on an anonymous board on the irrelevant internet because those opinions are somehow important enough to sway undecided voters. Mmmkay. Everybody be quiet now--like nice little girls and boys. We don't want to upset the sheeple.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

48. LOL. You Ascribe Much Power to Me.

I'd thank you, if it wasn't so funny.

I have zero power to silence anyone. But hey, it's all about you, right? Free speech!

DTH

[BeFree]

56. More like a power grab, I'd say

"I have zero power to silence anyone."

Yet you think some here have some power to convince people how to cast their vote? You just proved to me that you are just playing a game. A game all about you. You are trying to be a bully and will twist and turn things any which way to get your power trip. I've known enough like you in real life to recognize the motions here.

Peace.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

79. The Power to Convince Is Just About All That Anyone Has Here

I just think it's so...well, CUTE that you (rather bizarrely) think I have more power than that. What, am I going to somehow reach through my screen and across the ether and slap someone?

:crazy:

DTH

[mopaul]

67. and you ascribe much to me.....tempest in a teapot, sugar

[DoveTurnedHawk]

81. Nah...Just Trying to Urge People to Take Personal Responsibility (eom)

DTH

[cestmoi]

111. I can't believe all the hostility at doveturnedhawk.

Those venting hostility at doveturnedhawk's posting remind me of freepers because they display the same ugly mentality, one that reflects a common attitude that life in a gutter is somehow authentic.

Bill Cosby was wrong to limit his comments to poor black youth because the attitude he described is also displayed with DUers and freepers. People have lost sense of what is civilized behaviour and why why its matters.

The very crux of the American Constitution is to protect civilized discourse from thugs and morons who know the cost of everything but the value of nothing and want rule by force.

[scared]

112. Tell me how telling the truth is like the freepers?

Fiction is what we are seeing right now on all of television. Reality is something quite different, and we are expressing that reality.

[cestmoi]

116. I agree with you TV is foisting fiction on us. The question is

how best to respond. Let's agree that reality is nothing like what is portrayed on TV. However if your response is simply to reflect this ugly and dehumanizing reality then you in fact reinforce that reality. For example, if someone having dropped acid is on a bad trip, do you reinforce their nightmare? Of course not. You have to give them confidence that the trip will end.

Likewise all of us who see reality for what it is and want to change it have to build up each other. In times like these it takes effort to keep at the forefront of consciousness that change is possible. Reality as it now stands is structured to bring people down, to create a sense of futility and helplessness. Adopting the attitudes of people who have succumbed to a sense of powerlessness is not constructive.

Richard Hofstaedder, an American historian won a Pulitzer for Anti-Intellectualism in America. In it he recounts how Americans are betrayed by their belief that emotion is superior to intellect. One sees this with freepers who discount whatever facts are presented to them and in their emotional attacks on the left. My point is that DUers do the same thing when they lash out with profanity on the Right. Emotional displays are in fact a symptom of being powerless, anger simply gets channeled into rages and nothing changes.

[Sandpiper]

37. Yeah, I mean playing nice with the Repubs

Has gotten us so far in the past 10 years. I can't understand why we would abandon that strategy.

[mopaul]

66. i've had a dozen people tell me i've blown the election myself

what are these people on?

[thebigidea]

117. really? Shit, I was just joking.

I'd guess they were on huge doses of self righteousness with a chaser of outright delusion.

[BeFree]

39. And I'll be the judge of that, thank you

And my judgement tells me that if there is a consequence, it will be that the sheeple begin to raise their heads off the ground to see what the commotion is all about!

And that would be a good thing. Thank you very much.

[shimmergal]

47. You can have your say, but really...

what's the point of spewing all that stuff full of hatred about R. Reagan now? He can't hear you.

Maybe some people need to ventilate thair feelings about the 40th president--I don't believe DU was around during his administration--but it's just as easy to ventilate at home by yelling at the TV set during this endless orgy of praise.

Even about Bush*, whom I don't hesitate to badmouth here--after all, he's still around to theoretically be stung by all the bad vibes-- but it's just as satisfying to take my dog outside and tell him "Go pee on a bush." P.S. he does!

[Sandpiper]

51. One very big point is

That Shrub is going to try to ride Reagan's casket back to the White House now that he's finally croaked.

Not to mention, there's going to be a movement now to name everything other than rest area toilets after the guy, and stick his pruny face on US currency and (gods forbid) Mt. Rushmore.

[mopaul]

68. driving miss reagan

[BeFree]

53. shimmergal, here's the point

It makes me feel good.

If that doesn't float your boat, how about this: By virtue of folks having a forum to speak together of matters of great concern to them, there is a possibility of educating and being educated whilst enjoying the practice. RR was, is, and shall be, of great concern to us and the US for the foreseeable future. To hide our thoughts and feelings away from each other would not be conducive to the possible educational experience.

Are you experienced? Have you ever been experienced? Well, I have.
And it feels goooood.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

54. "It Makes Me Feel Good!"

Thank you for illustrating my point so well.

DTH

[BeFree]

Take a hike, bub.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

59. I Am So Impressed By Your Response

Sorry if the truth hurts. You walked right into it, IMO.

DTH

[mopaul]

69. if it feels good, DON'T do it............how puritan

[DoveTurnedHawk]

80. Sometimes, Raw Indulgement of the Id and Hedonism Is Not Helpful

I know...such a shocking, puritan statement that flies in the face of all this individualism.

DTH

[scared]

110. Sanctimonious,

Thank you for finding just the right word I was looking for to describe his condascending attitude toward those who feel the need to vent their frustrations at all the adoration being heaped upon someone so undeserving.

(OOps, I was referencing the message below me, not the one above.)

[Susang]

36. Gee thanks, Sanctimonious Man!

Perhaps in your infinite wisdom, you might want to consider that your "proselytising" may seem just as off putting to those undecided voters.

Perhaps you might want to consider that setting yourself up as a paragon of virtue (which your comment regarding your clear conscience does), intended or not, makes you sound judgemental and condescending towards your fellow Democrats.

You really shouldn't worry so much about what Andrew Sullivan or Rush Limbaugh thinks. The people who read or listen to them have already made up their minds. I don't know many undecided dittoheads. You might want to worry about what the people who are on the same side as you think. They might even agree with your opinion, but not even bother to listen since your tone suggests an angry father chastising his teenage children.

[Sandpiper]

41. The very first thought that popped into my head

They might even agree with your opinion, but not even bother to listen since your tone suggests an angry father chastising his teenage children.

After reading the original post was: "Yes, Mother."

[Renew Deal]

43. If they are on the same side...

Doesn't that mean that they have already made up their minds? Why worry about what they think?

[Susang]

49. Because they are your allies!

n/m

[DoveTurnedHawk]

46. Nah, I've Done Pretty Well

My tally on Republicans I've spoken to donating to Democrats is up over $2,000 by now. I'm pretty diplomatic in person, I'm pretty sure I haven't turned anyone off.

But as for turning people off...I'm willing to bet immense sums of money that there are more undecided voters listening to Rush and Sullivan who are turned off by rude liberals, than there are open-minded voters here who are impressed by the vitriol.

DTH

[Susang]

55. I don't gamble, so I never make bets

All I know is your post turned me off. Judging by the response, I was not alone. There are many definitions of "rude liberals" I'll give you an example:

You'd be surprised to know that I have many conservative friends (mostly of the Libertarian bent) who listen to Rush et al. In my conversations/debates/knock-down, drag-out fights with them, the main personality characteristic that they bitch to me about is the liberal "mommy" mentality. They often accuse us (myself included and often) of thinking we know better than others how to live, raise children, etc., etc.,. You see the accusation often on Free Republic, that we believe we are superior, educationally, morally and ethically.

So, what I'm getting at, is, if this post is about changing undecided voters minds about who they should vote for in November, a post chastisizing your fellow Democrats for their bad behavior isn't very constructive either.

Just my opinion. Do with it what you will. But I've also managed to turn a few Republicans in my time, so I think it's equally as valid as yours and deserves to be heard in response.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

58. I'm Not Targeting Undecideds

There are very, very, very few of those here, many less than any mass market radio show.

I'm targeting people who, IMO, should know better. I don't doubt that my post will bother some of those folks. Yet the folks that my post bothers are, most likely, EXACTLY the folks that I'm targeting.

DTH

[Susang]

60. Then what is the purpose of this post?

From your original post:
So when I see people say, "Who cares what Andrew Sullivan thinks," or "Who cares what Rush thinks," or "Who cares about Ronald Reagan dying," it always makes my teeth itch. The answer is, maybe a few hundred undecided voters care about what Andrew Sullivan thinks, and maybe a few thousand undecided voters care about what Rush thinks, and maybe a few million undecided voters who actually voted for REAGAN might care about how people respond to his death.


Hey, it would be nice if everyone acted the way they should. The problem is, they never do, no matter how much you tell them to. Sometime, the more you push people to act a certain way, the more they will act the opposite just to anger you. It gets worse when you imply that their opinion or feelings are wrong or bad in some way. It just seems counterproductive to me. Obviously, you feel you know better. Hope it works for you.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

83. I Am Ever Hopeful

Hey, it would be nice if everyone acted the way they should. The problem is, they never do, no matter how much you tell them to.

Sometimes, the only way to reach folks is to do a little rhetorical shaking of the tree. After all, I've seen how well the polite and courteous approach has worked over the last couple of days.

As for who I'm targeting, I'm pretty clearly targeting the people who have been acting (IMO, obviously) badly over Reagan's death on the basis that what they say does not matter.

Peace.

DTH

[Forkboy]

38. Have a fun thread everybody

I'm sick as a dog :puke: and going to bed!

Dont do anything I wouldn't do (that leaves a lot of leeway).

Night all! :boring:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. See...you even made yourself sick with the bile

Bwahahahahaha! (feel better Forkboy...just giving you a dose :evilgrin: really...promise :D )

[Forkboy]

61. I'm back up

and I'm gonna get you for that :spank:

damn troublemaking kids these days!

:D

[Wonk]

45. I'll just be sitting over here on the comfy couch watching, thanks.

Anyone else want some popcorn?

[thebigidea]

50. Its threads like this that cry out for jiacinto

[DoveTurnedHawk]

52. Jiacinto! Caw, Caw!

:evilgrin:

DTH

[mopaul]

71. and the late blue chill

ah the god old days

[stickdog]

57. When are you and Ronnie ascending to heaven together? (nt)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. It hasn't been a week yet

On a more serious note, I thought we all advocated for free speech...isn't DTH included in that? I might not entirely agree with the delivery but he does raise a good point about all of us leading by example. Is that of no value?

[JNelson6563]

63. Freudian slip in your title

Clearly demonstrated by your inventory of heroic actions listed in detail.

Good for you DTH, Not only do you preach restraint and encourage thinking along the lines of the greater good, you are sure to post about how great and good your own self is.

Your message would've been more convincing and seemingly sincere if you hadn't chose to tell us about your own great~bad self.

Some of us are moving mountains without regular litanies about it. And we are refraining from asking who cares about this or that person's opinion AND we are resisting acting like assholes about Reagan's death.

Tell me, what sort of category do folks who meet all your demands and exceed your sterling example by humbly not listing their constant efforts to achieve positive change fit into?

Julie

[DoveTurnedHawk]

84. Sorry Julie, I'm Just Not Going to Mix It Up With You Today (eom)

DTH

[mopaul]

64. bless me DTH for i have sinned

i, single handedly, handed the white house to bush in 04 with my nasty comments. yeah right.

[Art_from_Ark]

70. Oh boy! Another "I'm here to pass out the ashes and sackcloth"

thread.

:boring:

[greatauntoftriplets]

73. And maybe millions will vote for numbnuts...

...because he is now politicizing Ray-goon's death.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1233788,00.html

In the grand scheme of things, your lecture is meaningless to me.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

85. Didn't Think It Would Be

I had little doubt that many people here would either fail to see or deliberately ignore the point.

DTH

[mopaul]

87. we all GET your pompous point mother

we just don't like being scolded all the time and told to sit in the corner and be quiet by thought police

[DoveTurnedHawk]

88. That's Right...It's All About YOU and You Are an INDIVIDUAL! (eom)

DTH

[mopaul]

92. it IS all about Meeeeeee, don't you get it?

this whole forum is about ME, not YOU. it's all about the war on terror, and mo. it's about thousands of dead innocents, and mo's bad language. it's about decorum and proper manners when speaking of nazi atrocities. dth, YOU are the one who doesn't get it, not me

[DoveTurnedHawk]

93. Oh I Get You Mopaul, and I Get the War and This Criminal Admin

But if it makes you feel better about yourself for you to think that I don't, knock yourself out. Because remember:

IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU!

DTH

[mopaul]

94. finally you get it, it's all about mo destroying america

[DoveTurnedHawk]

95. Oh, Is This More, "Poor, Oppressed Mopaul" Now?

:crazy:

DTH

[mopaul]

98. why o why won't you kiss my glorious butt? why don't you love me?

everyone love me please, starting with you

[mopaul]

100. let's confess dove, this is all a comedy routine

we've been pulling your legs DUer's, we really love each other, and this is just comedy relief.

[Walt Starr]

74. PPPPTTTTTHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

That's all I have to say about that.

[ProfessorGAC]

97. What Walt Said!

A little preachy, a little treacly, and a more than little sanctimonious.

I know it's probably hard to believe, but there is not just one smart person (screen name DoveTurnedHawk) on this site. There's lots of 'em.

Having had your say, your follow up posts are indicative of someone who isn't expressing opinion, but rather, dispensing wisdom as fact.

Turn it down a notch, huh?
The Professor

[DoveTurnedHawk]

102. Guilty as Charged

I accept personal responsibility for every word I've uttered, and the tone in which I've uttered them, even if that means that some people here will view me less favorably than before.

And I never once claimed that there aren't other smart people here. That's what's so maddening to me: the fact that people here ought to know better, quite frankly.

DTH

[ProfessorGAC]

104. Know Better Than What?

I've been gone for a few days. What has you so upset?

Second Point: Sanctimony is NEVER an attractive attribute, even if it's self-acknowledged.
The Professor

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. There Has Been a Big Blowup Over Reagan's Death

Some here have chosen to celebrate it. Predictably, that was picked up by the RW media, to a chorus of, "Who cares?"

Aside from the fact that I feel celebration of Reagan's death is really ugly and inappropriate, I also believe that the attention focused on this matter, regardless of who the messenger is, does not cast us in a good light. And even if the result is a mere handful fewer votes in the grand scheme of things, it still bugs me.

As for the rest...who said I was going for attractive? ;-)

DTH

[buddhamama]

75. I think distinctions need to be recognized.

on the whole very few DUers have spoken actually words of Hate against the man or celebrated his passing. others, like myself, have spoken but have not uttered a word of hate, name calling- anything that could be viewed as hateful.

it seems even among the civility crowd there is disagreement as to when it is ok or proper to speak. for myself, i don't believe ones need wait till the Man is buried before speaking of him honestly;
i have and will continue to do so. but as i've already stated i will not be celebrating or speaking words of hate. i have no hate for the man. i don't feel much of anything to be honest. it is what it is- his death, his legacy. i will continue to reflect and analyze,
and do my part to ensure that what Reagan began is not repeated again in my lifetime.

there was time here when others celebrated death, many of those who are now so embarrassed or upset at the vitriol and venom.
it was the 'in' thing to do, it was acceptable, expected.
therefore no one worried over how we might be perceived.

when i wouldn't spew hatred toward the acceptable targets
i was called a terrorist supporter. when i wouldn't celebrate the killing of Saddam's sons, i was called a few adjectives- i won't list them here.

i think we all need to keep in my mind that hatred is a very normal human emotion;
and how easy it is to feel justified in hating. those who are 'hating' now feel justified in their hatred of Reagan. He was not a good man-my opinion of course but my mind will not be changed on the matter so don't even try.

Reagan was a man like any other.
He, imo, deserves no more respect or deference, than any other human being. Least of all a human being who caused much harm and callously brought death to countless of his fellow human beings. I cannot respect or honor the man. And i won't.

Although You and i have disagreed in the past,DTH,
I respect you.
And I hope you will understand my reasoning and position.

[mopaul]

76. reagan/bush/bush all CELEBRATED DEATH, ever count the dead?

they loved death, they exported death, thousands died under them, THEY celebrated death,........i celebrated reagan's.

i'm not scolding you, just adding on another brick.
i did not feel a tug at my heart when the old grinch smiled his last.

[buddhamama]

77. and i wasn't chastising

i know of the dead, i know the men who killed (as much anyone can know anyway)

it is just not my way, to hate.
it is wasted energy, imo.
it needs constant feeding and expression.
i feel anger yes, but not hate.

i understand the emotion, though.

[mopaul]

78. we are on the same page, different paragraphs

du has all kinds. thoughtful and intelligent people, and assholes like me. i admire those with centered and serene minds, and i'm not being sarcastic. i also envy them. sometimes, i wish i could be more like them.

[NashVegas]

82. This Metaphor's a Screamer

Thanks for the demonstration.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

86. Always Happy To Oblige (eom)

DTH

[Q]

89. Hogwash: "Florida was decided by less than 600 votes."

- Why must you participate in the revisionism? You make it sound as if Florida was simply a 'close race' as oppose to what it really was: election fraud perpetuated by Bush* Republicans.

- What harms our party more than silly comments by Democrats is the insistance by some to repeat RWing talking points.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

90. That Was the Final Tally

I agree with you on the voter fraud, but the reality is that even with the felon purge, any one of another ten factors breaking our way could have won the election. There are often multiple causes, multiple prongs, to get to any particular effect.

DTH

[linazelle]

96. If I you didn't already have 1,000 posts I'd say you were trying to

up your count. So what if there are other factors that would have decided the Florida election--that has nothing to do with your point that there's a need to refrain/be more responsible for speech/actions because it might affect undecided voters.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

99. It's Directly Related To My Point

My point is that sometimes even the little things matter. 538 more votes, and all of their (ultimately successful) efforts to steal Florida STILL would have been for naught.

DTH

[linazelle]

115. -

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

91. Thanks my brother. . .

. . .nice post.

[MadHound]

103. No, it is not about me, it is about them

It is about the thousands of Americans who died due to Reagan's willfully shunning gays and AIDS.

It is about the thousands of Americans who died due to Reagan's butchery of the federal mental and physical health budgets.

It is about the thousands of American veterans who died due to Reagan's refusal to acknowledge the health problems these people suffered from the military use of such chemicals as Agent Orange(I personally knew three Vietnam Vets who died from their AO exposure).

It is about the hundreds of thousands of American lives ended or ruined due to the scourge of crack that the Reagan unleashed as part of their Iran/Contra dealings.

It is about the hundreds of thousands of Americans killed due to Reagan wishing to leave no millionaire behind at the expense of the poor in this country.

It is about the hundreds of thousands of Central and South Americans who were killed or wounded due to the Reagan Doctrine of overthrowing democratically elected governments.

It is about the hundreds of thousands of lives lost due to Reagan's cynical playing of one against the other in the Iran/Iraq conflict.

It is about the thousands of lives lost due to Reagan's material and spiritual support of the muhjadeen fighters in Afghanistan(the future Taliban).

These people are no longer with us to speak about the horrors visited upon them by the Reagan administration. It is my duty, your duty, everybody's duty to speak for them. Being nice has never gotten the progressives/liberals in this country a damn thing except kicked and spat on. I believe in not speaking ill of the dead most of the time, however when it comes to such an evil man as Reagan, I feel it is my duty to remind everybody just how evil he was,to speak for those who can no longer speak for themselves, thanks to Reagan.

[lastliberalintexas]

108. Bless you MadHound

It appears that many here need to be reminded (or told for the first time?) of the policies of the Reagan administrations so that they will understand why so many hated what he did to our country.

[mopaul]

109. Can I get a witness?!...good god!....hit me........!!!!..........n/t

[RememberTheCoup]

114. I'm with you on this, DTH.

It's one thing to try to present a truthful and complete picture of Reagan's legacy as an antidote to some of the whitewashing that is going on by the media. It is quite another to express joy at his passing and other such ugliness. As you said, it doesn't do anything to draw people over to our side. And if DU has no effect on what anyone anywhere thinks, why are we even on here? I present my opinions in order to influence others. And I am sometimes influenced by what others say. I don't find your post "sanctimonious" at all. Our own behavior should be just as valid a discussion point as anything else.

[hiphopnation]

118. Well said.

And some good responses to the backlash. As you yourslef donned this place it is often, IMHO, "a big festival of mental masturbation".

But that leaves the question, why do you let it it get to you? In the grand scheme of things, what goes on here matters so very little.

Nice post anyway.