as June 30 nears, Iraq just gets worse by the minute, but we must stay.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

Another Iraqi official was murdered, another car bombing, more troop deaths, UN envoy Brahimi will quit. Things are bad an getting worse but we should not simply leave.

We owe it to the Iraqis and the rest of the Arab world to leave them with some semblance of stability. I don't know how, I have no answers, but we just cannot leave them in this chaos.

Gunmen Kill Another Iraqi Government Official in Baghdad

[bemildred]

1. Sir, we made the chaos.

It will leave when we do.

Your "arguement" is incoherent, and incoherence is not a
good basis for policy, it's how we got in this mess.

[sendero]

2. The chaos is there..

.... because we are there. The sooner we leave the sooner it will get sorted out.

[mike1963]

3. Well, hell's bell's, how much worse could it really be?

:eyes:

[BJ]

4. As Dennis Kucinich says:"UN in US out"

This may sound simplistic but the Kerry administration, as its first act in office, must order all American forces in Iraq to immediately cease any and all offensive operations; confine all military personnel to their bases within Iraq; don the powder blue beret of UN peacekeepers; replace all American military commanders in theater of operations with UN peacekeeping force commanders agreeable to all sides (I suggest Canadian, Swedish, German or Egyptian) and then get the Hell out of Dodge!

[TruthIsAll]

5. You have it backwards. We are causing the chaos by staying.

Let them solve their own problems. We should only be helping in the rebuilding effort.

The presence of our troops is inciting the insurgents.

Let the UN handle it.

Bring our troops home.

[KoKo]

11. Exactly. We broke it but let them fix it. They could restore their own

country better than we can. And they can find investment on their own.

We didn't find the WMD, which was our "Mission" (as Bush likes to say) then it morphed to "liberating them." Well we've accomplishe 1 and 2.

Get the hell out and let them decide. We caused it and by staying we only harm the people of that country more.

[leesa]

6. There is nothing the US can do. WE are the bad guy and we have to

go before any kind of repair can begin. We have no credibility.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. U.S. should relinquish lead role

but we should stay to help the U.N. or whoever will lead.

[Karenina]

18. THE IRAQIS DON'T WANT YOU THERE.

GET THE FUCK OUT! JUST SEND MONEY.

[gulliver]

8. I agree. But I don't have a lot of hope for success.

The war is a failure. There is no chance of a stable, pro-American democracy emerging there. Heck, we can barely keep the electricity on. We are going to end up with something unstable and probably anti-American no matter what we do now.

However, if we left now, the insurgencies would escalate to civil war and humanitarian disaster. We would end up with another, younger Saddam in the region, and possibly a greater Iran. The Kurds would be toast. That could all easily happen anyway.

Bush put us in there, and we are paying large for it. But we can't leave until the country is either partially stabilized or complete failure finally occurs. Unfortunately, Bush is the President of the United States. His bills are our bills, his mistakes our mistakes, his reputation ours...

[BeFree]

10. Viet Nam and Lebanon

We left them alone...finally.

Both nations are now at peace and pose no threat to the US.

Some people use Germany and Japan as an excuse to stay in Iraq.
But what happened was we thoroughly destroyed both of those countries first. And the rest of the world was on our side, then.

Now, we are almost alone in Iraq. Once we leave, most of their problems will disappear. Just like in Lebanon and Viet Nam.

[lanparty]

13. Yep ...

Virtually all the people willing to fight had already gone off to war for YEARS and died. Those who were left were too tired to fight. The occupation was a RELIEF in Japan and Germany, not an imposition.

Even in Vietnam where there had been guerilla fighting for 10 a LONG time before we entered, they still managed to put forth just enough men to harass US troops and pro-US Vietnamese.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. Nope

Look no further than Afghanistan the past 2 years to see why we can't simply leave it to work itself out.
We tried "occupation lite" Rumsfeld's way there and it has been a disaster.

[gulliver]

29. Eventually we'll have to get out...

...as we did in both of the cases you mentioned. It's a question of timing. Right now we are the only thing keeping the insurgents from taking over the place again.

IIRC, the Vietnam war ended with killing fields, concentration camps, and refugees. Lebanon remains a haven for terrorist groups. Can we avoid that sort of thing in Iraq? I doubt it.

But like it or not, Bush is technically the elected President of the United States, and he committed the country to the course it is on. This is what happens when you let a scruples-challenged, self-satisfied ass and a bunch of drooling neocons stampede the country into an unnecessary war.

We have to be careful how we remove the arrow that Bush shot into the belly of the middle east. It is a delicate situation and needs a nuanced response.

I agree that pulling out should be on the table at its appropriate time. I also think that Bush can't choose an appropriate time. Bush can't accept anything short of "shining beacon of democracy" or his party will take it in the shorts. A Democrat in office, with appropriate guidance and buy-in from Republicans like Scowcroft and McCain can start to heal the wound. But when it heals, it's going to leave a big scar, and probably won't function properly in our lifetimes.

[gpandas]

25. maybe it will take a civil war for...

these people to decide how their country should be run. it took one for us.

[gulliver]

31. True, but ...

... another country didn't start our civil war. There isn't necessarily a good answer. A civil war may be unavoidable. But the United States has a duty to try to prevent one whether it can or not. Bush gave our word.

[LittleApple81]

9. Anybody watch on C-Span this morning?

Situation in Iraq
C-SPAN, Washington Journal
Ghassan Atiyyah , Iraq Foundation for Development and Democracy

(DU thread here...I don't have much on the thread. When the guy started crying, I started crying. It is so sad). Atiyyah WAS SO, SO UPSET. I don't know what his role vis-a-vis the US is, but you cannot fake those tears.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1781694

Then there is this other thread in DU: Baghdad Fumes as the Americans Seek Safety in 'Tombstone' Forts:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1781941

I could not even post to this one. It is too much for me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Question: Who is responsible for more deaths in Iraq at this time?

The U.S. or the insurgents?

The old, "If we leave there will be a bloodbath" scenario should have died when that helicopter left Saigon.

[bvar22]

15. Exit strategy for Iraq:

1) Immediately expel ALL US Corporations and Global Corps from Iraq. Cancel ALL contracts. Cancel ALL debts imposed on the Iraqi people for the rebuilding of their country. Turn over the rebuilding to the Iraqis. Generously fund the rebuilding on a no strings attached basis. The cost would be less than continuing this hopeless war.

2)Withdraw military personnel to safe areas, and replace military commanders above the rank of colonel with International Peacekeepers. Begin withdrawing military personnel.

3)Immediately begin PUBLIC WARCRIMES TRIALS with International coverage focusing on individuals high in the Chain of Command and their civilian heads, also focus on the Private Security Contractors.

4)Immediately EVICT all of the US reps from Saddam's palaces, and turn these building over to the Iraqi people for whatever purposes THEY deem appropriate.


If Iraq collapses into a fundamental theocracy, or civil war, SO BE IT!
All the US can do is welcome refuges and provide no strings attached funds for intervention and Humanitarian Relief by the International Community. The US has LOST ALL CREDIBILITY and ALL MORAL JUSTIFICATION for ANY MORE meddling in this region!


There is NO LIGHT at the end of this tunnel!

[Karenina]

19. Excellent points, all.

:toast:

[Mari333]

16. YOU go, or send your kid

bring my stepson home NOW
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. Kerry says to take the targets off their backs

and it's on the backs of a lot of others besides us.
I agree mainly that we have to relinquish our lead role. And an Arab face has to be put on the coalition.
I am sorry we are there now, but it is only right that we stay to help.

[Karenina]

20. You cannot "help."

The sooner you get off your "white supremacist high horse" and accept that reality, the better for the survival of this planet and ALL its inhabitants. No one is willing to "front" for your RAPE and PILLAGE of Iraq. Get the FUCK out and clean up the mess in your own damn country that is the ROOT CAUSE for this clusterfuck. Just send MONEY.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. Who's on a high horse?

not me.

[Karenina]

23. Doch, doch.

"We owe it to the Iraqis and the rest of the Arab world to leave them with some semblance of stability. I don't know how, I have no answers, but we just cannot leave them in this chaos."

I cannot understand you, NYfM. NO ONE wanted your armed to the teeth, pillaging asses there in the first place. You OWE the Iraqis REPARATIONS and some respect for THEIR WISHES. Your *MIC invaded a nation 50% of whose population you KNEW was under 16 years old. You've now MURDERED tens of thousands of CHILDREN, never mind the TORTURE and destruction your *gubmint has fomented. Your "justifications" have now been shown, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT to be LIES, LIES, LIES. Your corporations are, even as I type this STEALING RESOURCES, RIPPING YOU OFF while they're at it and poisoning the land and MERCILESSLY ABUSING YOUR OWN TROOPS. Your troops commit ATROCITIES on a daily basis.

It would seem you "assume" the Iraqis would be unable, in YOUR ABSENCE, to find a way to pull themselves back together. YOU created the unbearable chaos, and THEY now want you OUT. Your *MIC is currently digging in, building permanent bases there. THE IRAQIS DO NOT WANT THAT. HOW can you possibly justify your position??? :wtf:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. and you assume the Iraqis have a single monolithic opinion

which is a mistake as well.

[Karenina]

33. I assume nothing.

I l-i-s-t-e-n to my Iraqi neighbors having long since learned that the American arrogance, with which I was also inculcated, is as fucking useless as my absolute pitch. Having been often accused by friends born and bred in that region (serious anti_Saddam, pro-American folks) of being a hard-line "anti-American" because of my recognition and understanding of the PNAC agenda, I take NO COMFORT when now approached by those who have been back home and returned to the safety of our 'hood admitting that I was NOT blowing smoke. The reality on the ground is FAR WORSE than my nightmares. My neighbors' families are LIVING IT DAILY. I'm so sorry that you seem so unable to relate.

Mustafa makes a kickass couscous. He cooks, we talk. And when mama is there, she cooks and he has to translate. And if I get the feeling he didn't get it right I call for a "second opinion."

You are correct. There is no "monolith" other than a growing recognition that what is occurring now is doing NO ONE ANY GOOD.

[Carolina]

21. Disagree, we should leave now or "get out while you can ..."

says an Iraqi. Read her full statement in the paragraph below from an article by Chalmers Johnson, author of The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic and of an earlier volume, Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire, among other works.
...............................

Despite endless hypocrisy about how we have brought freedom to the people of Afghanistan and Iraq, we know that almost all the citizens of those countries who have come in contact with our armed forces and survived have nonetheless had their lives ruined. The courageous, anonymous Iraqi woman who edits the blog "Baghdad Burning," subtitled "Girl blog from Iraq," writes (on May 7), "I sometimes get emails asking me to propose solutions or make suggestions. Fine. Today's lesson: don't rape, don't torture, don't kill, and get out while you can -- while it still looks like you have a choice. . . . Chaos? Civil war? We'll take our chances -- just take your puppets, your tanks, your smart weapons, your dumb politicians, your lies, your empty promises, your rapists, your sadistic torturers and go." Her reports on the Internet are indispensable to an understanding of the disaster we have made of a country that we invaded in the name of "preventive war."

from Our First Victory was Zapatero by Chalmers Johnson www.commondreams.org

edited for typo

[kentuck]

24. It doesn't matter if more Iraqis are killed....

So long Americans are not being killed... they can portray it as a successful policy. Of course, it is not true.

[rooboy]

26. That is like the rapist staying to console the victim. n/t

[Karenina]

27. Really.

What is NOT to get here? :eyes:

[Selwynn]

35. That's actually a decent analogy.

You know, even if we were sincere, and had a real change of heart (or leadership), understood or wrongs and sincerely desired to make amends by making Iraqi stability and freedom - real freedom not US puppet freedom - priority number one, I still think our legacy of invasion, occupation, and torture means that there is no way we can do any good there right now.

What I DO think however, is that we should PAY. I feel that even though we should pull out forces on the ground and get UN and other countries that opposed the US invasion in to help the people, we should pay for the continuing cost of bringing stability and rebuilding Iraq. We should pay for what we did with the only thing that really matters to our leaders: money.

We should be forced to make restitution for our violence and crimes. But keeping occupying soldiers on the ground doesn't help anyone, I don't believe.

[Jacobin]

28. The chaos was created by the U.S.

Why ANYONE thinks we should "stay and fix it", when we broke it and are making it worse by the day is simply beyond me.

WE are the problem. NOT them. As long as we are there with tortures, raping their resources, installing puppets as "government", shooting at anything that moves, using "rebuilding" their country as a pretext to enrich Smirk donors while forcing 70% of Iraqis to stay unemployed things will get worse. And quite predictably so.

Staying is the absolute worst thing we can do for them and for us.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. bush*, "stay the course"...good that's exactly what the Titanic did!!!

[Selwynn]

34. Our staying is PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I respect your sentiment, I do... but each day I get more and more convinced that our staying is DIRECTLY causing more instability and more unreset and taking innocent iraqis further and further away from hope of a better life.