Are we on the road to becoming Nazi's?

[Cyrano]

The fact that George W. Bush is still considered a viable candidate for president is far beyond disturbing. Anyone who's been paying attention has seen outrages that have never been perpetrated in the history of this country; not even during the criminal reigns of Nixon and Reagan.

Andrew Greely, a maverick Catholic priest, has an article in the Chicago Sun Times titled "Is U.S. like Germany of the '30's?"

http://www:suntimes.com/output/greely/cst-edt-gree/11.html

If BushCo wins/steals/finesses/cancels/discounts or nullifies this year's election, what now seems to be Germany of the 30's could well become Germany of the '40's. But this time, there will be no bulwark of democracy to come to the world's rescue.

No matter what, we can't let these maniacs have another term.

[stavka]

1. I'd say we are more like the Britain of the 1890's

...but we are well on the road. One must be careful when comparing to the OMEGA of evil...we are still a few steps away from wars of outright territorial aggression and burning children like the witch of fairie tales in ovens.

[Roon]

2. Not burning children..

just raping them in front of their mothers.

[stavka]

3. Hey, I'm not going to split hairs here....

Horribly Just Kidding

[PeaceForever]

4. The correct link is http://www.suntimes.com/output/greeley/cst-edt-greel11

http://www.suntimes.com/output/greeley/cst-edt-greel11.html

It's a really great article. Thanks for posting it.

[rexcat]

5. If his numbers don't fall in early September...

I will start to worry. If it is a close race through to election day I won't have much hope for Kerry, especially considering what happened in Florida in 2000.

[PeaceForever]

6. At this point, the U.S. would have to swing left to become like the Nazis

n/t

[stavka]

7. Careful - that's a silly thing to say

[MoonRiver]

18. "Careful"????

Is he your student?

[MoonRiver]

17. So, are you implying the Nazis were left wing?

[KayLaw]

24. No

Extreme left would be communism, right is fascism which describes Nazi Germany.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Well, you're either commenting that the NeoCons are worse than...

...the Nazis, and they would have to "swing left to become like the Nazis";

or...

You're stating that you believe the Nazis were a leftwing organization and the Neocons would have to "swing left to become like the Nazis".

I'm confused...please clarify.

[Kazak]

8. Er...

I'm not.

[davsand]

9. Is YOUR country a protofascist state? 14 points to consider:

I posted about an article that discusses this subject earlier today--(not the same article so don't worry about it being a dupe!)

Anyhow, there are about 14 points that we are looking at right now that are quite similar to a protofascist state. We should be VERY concerned!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1782509&mesg_id=1782509


Laura

[Cleita]

10. I don't understand why he hasn't been impeached.

Unless every Republican in Congress is part of the uberreich, patriotic Americans of every political ideology should be asking for a complete investigation of his administration and it's destructive policies.

[Cyrano]

11. All repugs or any (almost) any other pol cares about is getting reelected

Patriotism, ideology, beliefs, convictions, loves, hatreds, superstitions, loyalties, or any other factor has little or nothing to do with most politician's primary goal: Staying in office.

Regardless of how any of them feel about BushCo, they will do or say whatever it takes to keep their house/senate seat. Paul Wellstone was an exception and there are a few others. But, unfortunately, there are not enough to impeach our criminal in chief.

[Mechatanketra]

16. Uh, got it in one.

The ideology of Republicanism equates "patriotism" with an unquestioning nature. The greatest divide in this country right now isn't really between Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives, or any such conventional labels, but between those for whom patriotism" means making sure your country always does the right thing, and those for whom it simply means being sure your country always does the right thing.

The great irony of all the right wing's railing over the years about moral relativism, is that their stance -- for the vast majority of them who belong to the latter group -- is dependent on not having any absolute moral standard against which their nation may be compared. Active Patriots have this standard, and therefore may on occasion find their nation wanting; for Passive Patriots, loyalty to the country is the moral standard they compare themselves to, and thus to see any fault with it is to yourself be found wanting. Amerika uber alles.

So long as there is an uberreich, the Republican is a part of it.

[Bluebear]

12. Excellent piece, thanks for posting it!

nt

[the_real_38]

13. to me, the heart and soul of National Socialism is...

... the appropriation of labor by the state to further what are defined as "national interests". E.g. , Adolf Hitler drafted young men to invade the Soviet Untion in an effort to grab the Caucasus oil fields in the Soviet Union, and had a 'citizen's draft' to make ordinary people do work at home in the war effort (if you didn't know, for example the philosopher Martin Heidegger, one of the great intellectuals of the 20th century , was forced to dig anti-tank fortifications on the Rhine). Right now, the Defense Department has instituted a "stop-loss" extension of tours of duty for soldiers in Iraq (who are defending oil fields, e.g.e) who were going to leave the service, they're preparing a draft and a "special-needs" draft as well for skilled laborers the Armed Services need. At that point, I'd say we're doing essentially the same types of things as the Nazis.

Sure, no death camps yet, but Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib show real promise.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. I find this continued use of "we" disturbing and imprecise.

What you MEAN to ask is this: "Is the American political right embarked on the road to fascism?" To which the answer is "yes". However, "we" are not becoming fascists, since "we" are not all members of the political right. "We" are not America, and America is not "us". In point of fact, the US government of the past three and a half years is much more "them". Therefore, use of "we" is erroneous and misleading.

[jason_au]

15. And not all Germans were Nazis either...

In fact, Hitler & Co never won a majority in German Reichstag elections (their highest vote was in the 40%'s if memory serves). Through behind-the-scene dealings, extremely bad judgement on the part of the Centre Party and a chancellor who didn't have a clue what was going on, Hitler was able to secure himself the chancellorship, and then passed the Enabling Acts making him a dictatorial fuhrer.

Most of what might have been considered the equivalent of DU in Germany in the 30's (the various worker grouplets, communists, in fact anyone opposed to the Reich) was progressively rounded up and shot, or they left to secure their safety. Once Hitler was in control, there was no effective way to fight the Nazis.

The majority of people might not have approved of the Nazis, but they were too silent or too scared to do anything for too long - by which time it was too late.

Read Sebastian Haffner's "Defying Hitler" for a great account of living in Germany in the 1930's, and some analysis of why Hitler was able to come to power.

Cheers,

Jason

[stavka]

32. ...might I also recommend

Michael Burleigh's "The Third Reich: A new History" - amazing book

[iangb]

19. ..and I find that sort of denial disturbing.

This is YOUR country, and YOUR Government committing atrocities and terrorising half of the World.

"I didn't know" or "What could we do" were the most common excuses of ordinary Germans after WWII.

If you can think of what ordinary Germans should have done when Hitler emerged as a threat, you'll be on the way to finding solutions to your own predicament.......(and no, I'm not advocating assassination).

[Eloriel]

26. And if it's your government which has become fascist

it won't make any real difference -- IOW, yours is a distinction without much of a difference. Too, there'll be plenty of people caught up unthinkingly in the fascism who'll serve the role of enablers (all the way from unthinking to enthusiastic), so the distinction dwindles further.

[Hekate]

20. Well, Reichstag burned...check. Brown shirts with 3-piece suits...check.

Midnight knock without search warrent...check. Demand that librarians and booksellers turn over customers' reading lists...check.

Seriously, though, in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, around the time I realized that what the tv "news" media was doing was outright propaganda, I had a few conversations that made my hair stand on end.

My mother-in-law is over 90 and was raised in Vienna; she narrowly escaped to Belgium and finally moved to the US in 1953--most of her family was not so fortunate. I think of her as past being interested in politics by this time, but all of a sudden she said to me that the atmosphere here reminded her of Europe in the 1930s.

That was shocking enough, but not long after I met a few more older folks originally from Europe and they said they were having similar flashbacks.

It was *very* disturbing, because even though I was outraged and scared by the actions of the Bushites I was not ready to admit that things could be THAT bad in MY country.

But yes, it could be. Read Molly Ivins' recent columns -- she's got it right when she says: "This is how it begins."

We have so much work ahead to restore our democracy.

Hekate
"I want my country back"

[stavka]

21. With us or against us...check. unrestricted war on partisans, check

We even have many of the same "allies" Rumania, Galicia, Slovakia, Italy....

Puppet government...check

[Solon]

22. Hell been there done that...

doing it again. We imported them, don't you remember? When they lost, our fascists took pity, and either allowed them in this country, or aided and abetted them to be smuggled into South America. Perpatrators of these acts include a 2 former CIA directors, a former Secretary of State, Du Pont family empire, Morgan family empire, as well as the OSS, GM, IBM, Ford, Rockefeller, U.S. Steel, Remington, etc. etc. (I feel sick :()

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. There are a couple of big differences this time

First, Germany had never done democracy before Hitler. The US has been doing democracy for over 200 years. At least when these bums are removed from power, the rest of us can do our best to get our country back on track.

However, an even more important difference is our ability to communicate instantly with anyone, anywhere. In Germany, the real horror wasn't known to the world until after the war. With Iraq, volumes of evidence and pictures are a few clicks away.

Bu$hCo is toast. Things just have to run their course at this point. By January, we will know whether or not we will survived this fiasco.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. Responses...

"First, Germany had never done democracy before Hitler. The US has been doing democracy for over 200 years. At least when these bums are removed from power, the rest of us can do our best to get our country back on track."

I'm not so sure that America has been "doing democracy for over 200 years". The last 59 years since the end of WWII has seen the rise of the military-industrial complex as well as the major multi-national corporations and relaxations of the rules governing donations to candidates. Those factors alone have led to a governmental system driven to please the "big boys" at the expense of all others.

"However, an even more important difference is our ability to communicate instantly with anyone, anywhere. In Germany, the real horror wasn't known to the world until after the war. With Iraq, volumes of evidence and pictures are a few clicks away."

Sorry, but we DID know what the Nazis were doing with the death and concentration camps LONG before the end of WWII. Most other countries, particularly those in Europe, were all too aware of where those people-laden trains were heading. Our press chose to ignore the story. Sound familiar?

"Bu$hCo is toast. Things just have to run their course at this point. By January, we will know whether or not we will survived this fiasco."

Junior may indeed be toast, but even if Kerry wins, we will have a long road ahead of us before we know whether or not we've survived as a country. We are going to be left with a derailed economy, ongoing wars in the Middle East, rising prices for fuel, and an increasingly more agitated population. It's also not going to help that Congress will probably remain in the hands of the GOP.

[Eloriel]

29. Right -- and also, "even if Kerry wins"

We still have the Bush Crime Family and all the other fascists waiting in the wings, plotting and planning and getting stronger -- JUST AS what happened when Clinton won over Bush1. They didn't go away, they just bided their time until the next opportunity.

What we need to do is DESTROY this "political dynasty" of fascists. There is an unbroken line of fascists, Nazi sympathizers and war profiteers for FOUR GENERATIONS of Bushes. The Family must be politically destroyed. I just don't see Kerry doing that, despite the hopes and dreams of those who remember -- and flaunt -- his work on BCCI.

[Eloriel]

28. "At least when these bums are removed from power"

And why are you so sure they will allow themselves to be removed from power? Did they allow themselves to not be "elected" in the first place?

We have been PROMISED by this administration that there WILL be another terrorist attack on U.S. soil before the election. And was it Gov. Zinni or Franks who told us that in the case of another terrorist attack, they WILL suspend the Constitution and impose martial law?

I have spent the last week or so increasingly concerned about the period between now and Jan 20 -- not that I wasn't concerned before, but the situation is getting quite precarious for the administration, which means they'll be getting desperate. Do you REALLY think they'll hand over power like we normally do in a democracy? They TOOK power unlike what people in a democracy do -- and now there are war crimes and other crimes that they need to protect themselves from, not to mention their dreams of global domination to fulfill. We are entering a very dangerous time.

[Eloriel]

30. As I said in another thread, I was disappointed in Greeley's column

I don't think it went far enough -- OTOH, perhaps he's just waking up to the reality, in which case it's appropriate.

Here are some links:

March 16, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
When Democracy Failed: The Warnings of History by Thom Hartmann
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

The NASCAR Nazi
Bush is creating an un-American America
http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/04/38/lost-washburn.php

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread (Aug. 03)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199877

Nazification of America Phase 3
http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

The Reichstag Fire and 9/11; Pretexts for Dictatorship and the Fourth Reich
Includes: Parallels between the Third Reich and the Bush Regime; 9/11 and the Reichstag Fire; What was the Reichstag Fire; Nazis in America; Poland 1939, Iraq 2003 http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

Bush's 9/11 Reichstag Fire by Harvey Wasserman http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0913-03.htm

20 Comparisons by Barrie Zwicker
http://www.deceptiondollar.com/news/BloorRemarks911-03.htm

The Bush Plan for America: The Rise of an American National Security State
By Jennifer Van Bergen, 14 December 2003 http://www.ftaaimc.org/en/2003/12/3232.shtml

Here are some links re OPERATION PAPERCLIP and how we imported Nazis into the U.S. after WW2:

Ratlines: The CIA and the Nazis (Tarpley)
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/ratlines.htm

CIA's Worst Kept Secret
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/051601a.html

Project Paperclip and Camp Evans (in N.J.)
http://www.infoage.org/paperclip.html

Opn Paperclip (Namebase)
http://www.namebase.org/main3/Operation-Paperclip.html

Project Paperclip: Nazi Scientists Who Performed Human Experimentation in the U. S. http://www.dc.peachnet.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment/paperclip.htm

Project Paperclip and Literal Nazi Connections
http://www.datafilter.com/mc/paperclip.html
Resources on Human Experimentation by Nazi Doctorszi Experimentation
http://www.dc.peachnet.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment/paperclip.html
and Resources on Nonconsensual Human Experimentation
http://www.dc.peachnet.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment/paperclip.html

Operation Paperclip Revisited: Moral Schmoral By RICHARD THIEME, August 22, 2003
http://www.counterpunch.org/thieme08222003.html

MKULTRA (Mind Control experiments)
Mindfield (Globe Intel) http://www.gordonthomas.ie/mindfield.htm

Some other DU threads

It's Time for Another Bush/Nazi Thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853#199887
(most links already harvested)

1944: American fascism (re 1944 article)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=212387


Enough with the "_______ is worse than/ as bad as Hitler"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1730317


How Reagan Got Elected in the first place -- My little tribute
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1773894#1776990 (See Octafish post #33 for links to some books on Amazon)


Is U.S. REALLY like Germany in the 30's? (elementaryPenguin)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1772363#1772645
See also: Is US like Germany of the '30s? (Kayell)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1777406#1780958

[LittleApple81]

31. The Germans, who have had the experience, seem to think that BushCo are

Nazi-like.
As soon as BushCo's reasons for a war with Iraq started coming out, at least one of their newspapers--the Suddeutche Zeitung-- published Nazi speeches justifying invasion of neighboring countries in parallel columns with BushCo's reasons and guess what: they sounded extremely similar.