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Mr. Blonde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:28 PM
Original message
When will alternative fuel sources be reality
figuring all necessary funding was given. How long before alternative fuel sources could fully replace gas in what it does. Not just for someone going to and from work, but also for the semi's and other heavy duty trucks that need more power than current alt. provide.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. There's a difference between "necessary funding" and "someone's profit"
In this country, the CEO's bottom line means more than sustaining society. Everything in our society is DISPOSABLE, people not excepted.
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Mr. Blonde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. imagine
a utopia. Again I'm curious to what people think. I forsee a long time before any alt. fuel vehicles can pull a horse trailer, but maybe its just me.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. My sense is that it *could* be accomplished in a decade
but culturally and politically, there is still too much resistence, too little awareness. Once Kerry is elected we should see some real progress, and that could spark rapid development. Nothing succeeds like success, as they say.
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Mr. Blonde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. how weird
would it be to pass a semi running on electric?
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. We already have buses that run on alternative energy
Clean School Buses Around the Country

Hawaii: Alternative Transportation Fuels Fact Sheet

California: Energy Web Directory, AFV

New York: AFV Programs

Iceland: Hydrogen filling station opens in Iceland

Australia: Perth Fuel Cell Bus Trial

I'm sure you're well aware of the criticisms of Bush's hydrogen economy initiative. I'm critical too, but I see great promise in fuel cells. There's no reason that the primary sources of generating power need to rely on burning fossil fuels. Imagine a strip of desert with vast arrays of photovoltaic cells or ribbons. You make the juice, convert it to hydrogen and store it in fuel-cell batteries which can be easily shipped. Voila.

I can see it.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Before you can start alternative energy, you have to start conservation
If the government would just raise the damn fuel efficiency on cars and trucks and fix the loop holes, gasoline usage would end up going way down.

Of course that is bad business for Bush and Cheney's oil businesses, now isn't it?

Peak oil is about five years away. If Bush gets re-elected, we have only two years to deal with it. If Bush isn't re-elected, then we have five or six years.
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evworldeditor Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Alternative Fuels Need Your Support!
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 08:56 PM by evworldeditor
There are plenty of alternative fuel options out there: ethanol, biodiesel,natural gas, propane, electricity. Some are regionally specific, most will cost you more than you're paying right now and you'll probably have to live with less range per tankful. But until we all begin demanding and USING alternative fuels, carmakers and the government won't do much to change their ways.

By the way... the Nasamax racing team in the UK just finished 24 Hours of Lemans today running their LMP1 car on 100 bioethanol.

And irony of ironies... Dubya's Ford pickup at the Crawford "ranch" runs on propane and they just took deliver of a diesel lawn mower that burns biodiesel.

---------------------------------------
EVWORLD.COM
"Discovering the Future In Motion"
http://www.evworld.com

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Mr. Blonde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. ethanol
at least is about the same price or cheaper than regular unleaded. We don't have it where I live, but my friends who recently returned from Neb. told me about it. I like the idea of running on corn it seems cool. Finally the Iowa bumblebees will be of some use.
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notbush Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. What we have for sale commercially now, is a 10% ethanol blend
The reason it's the same price as "regular" gas is because there's a huge government subsidy to produce ethanol. Take away that subsidy, and ethanol blend would not be priced comparably to gasoline.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. If you want to talk subsidies, compare apples to apples
This year alone, the US has spent upwards of $300 billion in order to help secure access to Middle East oil. How much of the rest of the Pentagon's budget is ultimately geared toward protecting access to oil or oil shipping routes (oil shipping routes are the reason the US govt cares about Taiwan, for example).

I think that if the US government subsidized ethanol for $300 billion each year, it would be free to give away. How about if we threw $100 billion at electric battery R&D, to make them smaller and lighter? Or $200 billion at solar cell development?

Petroleum is probably the most heavily subsidized fuel source we have.


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Mr. Blonde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Right now
that is probably with good cause. We have to protect what we have right now, before we can branch out. It would be nice if we could afford to do both.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. The line between national interest and corporate interest has been blurred
Quite purposely, no doubt.

US taxpayers pay through the nose to 'protect US interests' which more often than not work out to be the interests of US corporations. Except now, they aren't even US corporations anymore, they are charted in the Bahamas to avoid taxes.

If oil was priced according to it's actual cost, alternative fuels would no longer seem so expensive, and the 'invisible hand of the marketplace' would take care of the rest. Right now, we have a not-so-invisible hand picking our friggin pockets and handing the cash to Exxon/Mobile.

We CAN afford to do what we need to do to transition to the future, if we stop spending it on illegal overseas corporate boondoggles -- for example, the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Or a trillion dollar Mars shot, for that matter!




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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. ethanol requires 70% more energy to produce than it delivers
It is not sustainable long term.

Ethanol is a plant-derived alcohol (usually from corn) which is used today, chiefly in the form of gasohol, a mixture of 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. Because it is used to some extent (mostly by federal mandate in certain places and at certain times) it is commonly thought that ethanol is a partially acceptable solution to the fuel problem for machines. However, ethanol is an energy negative -- it takes more energy to produce it than is obtained from ethanol.

Pimentel (1998b) states:

Ethanol production is wasteful of fossil energy resources . . . This is because considerably more energy, much of it highgrade fossil fuels, is required to produce ethanol than is available in the ethanol output. Specifically, about 71% more energy is used to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy contained in a gallon of ethanol.

Furthermore, ethanol production from corn cannot be considered renewable energy. Its production uses more nonrenewable fossil energy resources both in the production of the corn and in the fermentation/distillation processes than is produced as ethanol energy (p. 5).


The Post-Petroleum Paradigm -- and Population
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. That Pimentel study is highly suspect
ten minutes on google will tell you as much.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. The best part of Kerry's platform
Kerry wasn't my second, third or fourth choice in the primary, but I was always most impressed with his alternative energy proposals. This is one area where he probably will do a lot and make some real progress. We won't stop using gasoline in four years, but a lot of progress can be made in that amount of time if Kerry acts on his passion about the issue. I'd like to see that.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. That is of course if he can get it through congress
Lets hope the dems take back congress as well as the presidency. ;)
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. Get real....
alternative fuels will never power a modern industrial society - the rich will just kill the rest of us off when the crunch really kicks in (though you might get lucky and have a stock-broker enslave you to power his computer with a stationary bike).
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. So what can we/must we do to survive?
Seriously. Is modern civilization simply destined to collapse in upon itself for lack of fuel?

So, we've survived countless wars, famines, diseases and deadly poisons in our environment, only to perish because we ran out of gas.

What an epitaph, right? :shrug:
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. sustainable farming, communal goals, scaling back...
... but I don't think any of that will work in the long run - more likely is a Darwinian struggle, with Dickensian poverty, a lot of death and violence.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. Even if we do switch to alternative fuels
Edited on Sun Jun-13-04 10:27 PM by JohnyCanuck
in a major way don't be fooled that life in our Western based capitalist, consumer economies reliant on endless growth will continue as it does today. I get the impression too many people think that at some point the guys in the white lab coats will produce a new fuel (hydrogen, bio-diesel or whatever), some infrastructure changes will be made to deliver this new fuel, and then bingo everything will continue as per normal except that when we pull up to the gas pumps in our single occupant SUV we'll just fill up with hydrogen or bio-diesel instead of gasoline.

Major adjustments are going to have to be made to our economies and our transportation systems since it is very unlikely at our present state of knowledge that any alternatives will be able to do the job energy wise that conventional oil does for us today. Note that I am not saying we shouldn't be investigating, researching, developing and utilizing alternative energy sources, but it would be a mistake to simply assume that technology will at some point come to our rescue and provide a magic elixir which will meet our energy needs with the same high efficiency as conventional crude oil.

The EPR (energy profit ratio) of conventional crude oil from what I've seen seems to be running around 10 to 1 although it was higher in the past. An EPR of 10 to 1 means that for every unit of energy we invest in conventional crude oil production to get a barrel of oil, we get 10 units of energy out the other end in the resulting end product. EPRs of non-conventional sources are usually much lower than those for oil. For example to derive ethanol from corn actually takes 70% more energy to grow, harvest and process the corn into ethanol than the ethanol end product provides. Unfortunately our current economies have evolved to run on an energy source with a comparatively high EPR (petroleum).

When one examines suggested alternatives to petroleum, two facts stand out. First, the use of oil and natural gas as a huge supply of raw material for myriad petrochemical products importantly including fertilizer and pesticides, is unrivaled. Second, energy is energy in a sense, as it is defined as the ability to do work. The common thought is therefore that one energy form such as electricity can substitute for another energy form, gasoline. But, clearly this is not readily the case. (my emphasis /jc) A gallon of gasoline has the same energy content as one ton of conventional electric storage batteries. Physics of the storage of electricity cannot compete with the convenience of gasoline where a five gallon can of gasoline can be carried, if needed, hundreds of miles to a remote location to be used in some machine. The equivalent would have to be several tons of storage batteries.

The inability of fuels to be easily interchangeable in their end uses is a major problem. The fuel to effectively power the huge machines used in large scale farming, or even in smaller operations with smaller machines, beyond gasoline or diesel, is not yet in sight. The versatility of oil in convenience of handling and transport, and in end uses (motors of all sizes, useful in all climates, able to be stored over long periods of time in remote areas) is unequaled by any other energy source.

Biofuels and the Ethanol Myth
Oil derived from plants is sometimes promoted as a fuel source to replace petroleum. However, a comprehensive study by Giampietro and others (1997) concludes: "Large-scale biofuel production is not an alternative to the current use of oil and is not even an advisable option to cover a significant fraction of it." (my emphasis /jc) The facts and experience with ethanol are an example.

<snip>

A recent review of the future prospects of all alternatives has been published. The summary conclusion reached is that there is no known complete substitute for petroleum in its many and varied uses (Youngquist, 1997). The distinguished British scientist, Sir Crispin Tickell (1993), expresses a similar view: "... we have done remarkably little to reduce our dependence on a fuel which is a limited resource, and for which there is no comprehensive substitute in prospect" (p. 20). (my emphasis /jc)


The Post Petroleum Paradigm -- and Population

A person living in a First World city requires the equivalent of about 4.5 hectares (11.1 acres) of productive land for food, water, housing and goods (as well as carbon sinks to soak up the carbon dioxide produced by their energy use). Applying this "ecological footprint" standard to Australia shows that Sydney needs an area of productive land 35 times as big as the city to sustain itself. For 11 billion people to live like people in Sydney, we'd need about 50 billion hectares (124 billion acres) of productive land—around six times all the productive land on the planet.

By the year 2060, if the world maintained a mere 3 percent annual economic growth rate and all the world's people were to benefit equally, world economic output would have to increase to 80 times its current rate.

These limits-to-growth themes have been debated in academic circles for more than 30 years, but they almost never appear in the mass media.

We must almost entirely scrap the prevailing model of a competitive, growth economy and adopt materially simple economies that stress cooperation and participatory control. Above all, we must move to a steady-state or zero-growth economy. There is now a global ecovillage movement pioneering the development of new settlements that are required for sustainability. Hopefully, the coming "mother of all oil shocks" finally will get all this on the public agenda.


The Death of the Oil Economy

Regarding the proposed switch to a hydrogen economy see:

Why Hydrogen is no Solution and Fuel Cell Folly

From Fuel Cell Folly:

A very important number is the cost of the electricity, generated by whatever process used, which is converted to the “form” of hydrogen. The December 2002 issue of BioScience Magazine contained an article entitled "Renewable Energy: Current and Potential Issues". The author, David Pimentel, notes “The energy required to produce 1 billion kWh of hydrogen is 1.4 Billion kWh of electricity. Later on the same page he says “The conversion of hydrogen into direct current (DC) using a fuel cell is about 40% efficient”. One might conclude that this means 60% is wasted, or that, of the 1 billion kWh produced, only 400 million kWh is used. Using 1.4 billion kWh to produce hydrogen of which 400 million kWh implies a total cost of 1.4 Billion kWh to realize 400 Million kWh in useful energy, a loss of about 70% of the original energy available.


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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. It will be a tooth-and-nail struggle to survive -
none of us would make it, probably.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Believe it or not, they already are!
I just spoke to a friend this weekend whose brother just bought a new car-- a diesel VW Beetle.

"But diesel fuel isn't 'alternative'," you're probably saying. Well, it depends on what you use to make the fuel.

There is currently a bio-diesel fuel made entirely from soy. It's not yet widely available in gas stations; however, you CAN buy it in bulk from many co-ops and other sources. Since it's based on soy, it is renewable, and it works fine in diesel engines (which, btw, tend to be more fuel-efficient than regular cylinder engines.

Also, there is an ethanol blend for sale in my state that is 85% ethanol. Unfortunately, like most things of this nature, it's not distributed widely yet; also, not every car can accept a fuel that's only 15% gasoline.

There are "alternative" solutions out there, but you really have to look for them, and make an effort to do so.
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NEOBuckeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Nothing like a major crisis to force people to make changes. n/t
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notbush Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Do you have a link on either of these two fuels?
The 85% Ethanol doesn't sound like a product that would run in any of todays engines...without major modifications.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. Profit is the motivator
When it becomes profitable to develop and use alternate sources of energy, then it will become reality.

I know we should proceed with all haste to implement alt fuels, but our system is built on profit, so alt fuels won't be pursued until it is forced by escalating costs of traditional fuel.

Thats the way it is.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-04 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sorry To Say Never, But Never Is The Right Answer, For Why See The Links
Peak Oil websites of interest include:

http://globalpublicmedia.com/
http://www.greatchange.org/
http://www.oilcrisis.com/
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Home.html
http://www.oilcrash.com/running.htm
http://www.wolfatthedoor.org.uk/
http://www.durangobill.com/Rollover.html
http://www.asponews.org
http://www.gulland.ca/depletion/depletion.htm
http://www.dieoff.org/
http://www.oilanalytics.org/
http://www.after-oil.co.uk/
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/
http://hubbert.mines.edu
http://www.museletter.com/archive/cia-oil.html

Books:

Out of Gas: The End of the Age of Oil
by David Goodstein

The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies
by Richard Heinberg

Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage
by Kenneth S. Deffeyes

The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight : Waking Up to Personal and Global Transformation
by Thom Hartmann

The Oil Factor: How Oil Controls the Economy and Your Financial Future
by Stephen Leeb, Donna Leeb

News Groups:

Energy Resources
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources/

Alas Babylon
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlasBabylon/

Running on Empty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RunningOnEmpty2/
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-04 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
27. Just think if Reagen did not destroy the Energy Bill Carter Passed
How far we would have come by now to that reality.

Photo Voltaic

Solar heating

Wind Generation

It was just starting to become an industry when he pulled out all the stops on wiping previous legislation that gave tax breaks and incentives to develop and install this technology. It was a booming cottage industry that was wiped out over night

Can you imagine the advancements we would have made by now would we have stayed on that course. Photo cells would be down to $30 or $50 per Kw. Every shopping center would use roof space to produce it electrical needs. Farmers would turn old wind mills into mini generators supplying the towns
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