Fundie callers on CSPAN are out in full force. Aaaaaargh!!!!

[prolesunited]

One woman said that Bush is a good Christian who opposes gay marriage and abortion. God ordained Bush as president. He may not be perfect, but all Christians should pray for him and support him.

Another caller took issue with someone who noted the Bible says "Thou shall not kill." She countered with the Bible also says that there will be "war and rumors of war" prior to Armageddon. Since we will soon

What gets me is the sincerity of these callers. Personally, I'm a non-believer and this isn't a slam against ALL Christians, just the ones who are so delusional. What is wrong with these people and how do they get this way?

BTW, I just can't buy that Bush was God's choice — He's an omnipotent supreme being and the BEST he could come up with was Bush? Hahaha!

[Art_from_Ark]

1. Jim Jones' followers thought he had been sent by God, too

They found out the hard way that he wasn't when they drank the Kool-Aid in Jonestown.

[Cheswick2.0]

3. and then there is David Koresh

His followers thought he was the 2nd coming of Christ.

[Ripley]

5. And the really scary thing is...

I was recently flamed by multiple DUers (because I called him a pedophile based on testimony of former groupies) who think Koresh was just an innocent victim of FBI fascist jackboots.

[rooboy]

9. And you deserve to be flamed.

Show me convictions in a court of law. These claims you speak of came mostly from a number of people who had PROPERTY disputes with David Koresh. The Waco sherriff's department said that he could find NO evidence to substantiate any claims of sexual abuse on the BD compound.

And one of the key witnesses against the Branch Davidians, Marc Breault, turned out to be legally BLIND, although he claimed to have received paramilitary training.

Have you reviewed the FBI tapes and tactics at Waco? Or are they just bad guys when the republicans are in charge?

[Ripley]

16. That is just BS.

I remember watching a woman who was formerly a Davidian speak about Koresh. She did not have property disputes. She said both she and her teenage daughter had sex with him, because he said it was his way of passing on his divine blah blah blah. And she said ALL the females were coerced into having sex with him...married, unmarried, and girls under 18. A fucking rapist.

Why do you defend such a criminal? Is your hatred of all federal police so blinding that you defend assholes?

[Cheswick2.0]

28. rooboy yoiu need to watch the documentary made with the children

a Few years ago they made a documentary and it was very clear that Reno was right. Koresh was running a cult where chilren were molested and they planned their firey death. There is film of the children singing about it in some kind of demented variation on Ring Around the Rosey.

[Art_from_Ark]

60. Ironically, the original "Ring around the rosies",

according to the late E.G.Marshall, was about the Black Plague.

A "ring around the rosies" referred to the splotches that appeared on the faces of the victims. A "pocketful of posies" referred to bags of herbs that were thought to ward off the plague. "Achoo, achoo" apparently signified the last gasp of the victim, while "we all fall down" referred to the plague's ultimate result.

[Ripley]

62. Interesting.

But isn't it "ashes, ashes we all fall down?" Still fits into the description.

Morbid thing for little kids to sing and dance to.

[Joanne98]

54. This came from testimony from young girls who left the compound

Besides that model of cult. (Christian , male leader) usually always molest young teenage girls. In marriage of course. Look at the fundie cults in Northern Arizona and Utah. Multiple marriages and girls are married off as young as 11. It's in the bible so they get to do it.To put it simply FUNDIE CULTS MOLEST YOUNG GIRLS. They're worse than Michael Jackson. If Charles Manson hadn't have gotten caught. He would have cleaned up and started his own church. The fundies are the Manson family without Manson.

[Joanne98]

55. The Christian Menace

I got attacked for putting this in one of my posts yesterday. The protester was offended by the word menace. He said I was using the "red menace" tactic the GOP nazis used in the 50's. I had to defend my use of the word menace by pointing out that "secret STEALTH organizations" who try to take over the government from within ARE a menace. The red menace was BS rw propaganda, The Christian menace is real. I compromised and changed it to the FUNDIE MENACE. But I still think the Christian menace is more accurate because that's what they call themselves. Either way because they're STEALTH they're a MENACE.

[Cheswick2.0]

26. Did you ever see the documentary done with the surviving children?

They make it pretty clear that Koresh and their parents planned the fire and set themselves as martyrs for what ever wacked out ideas they were all spouting. They also made it clear there was all kinds of sexual abuse going on.

[Ripley]

29. Yes, I think that is what I recall seeing years ago.

I distinctly remember hearing the women speak about how they felt ashamed that they were duped into thinking he was a prophet and that it was a religious experience to have sex with him.

But as you can see from the above poster, some men will defend him with their last breath because it's just a "freedom to bear arms issue" and to hell with what the victims say.

[Ripley]

2. Christian Fundamentalism has infiltrated our entire society...

It is controlling our government, our school boards thus curriculum, and our media. While I can hear more cuss words on the tube than I did when I was growing up, I can also find about 10 24/7 religious wacko channels on my cable line up.

It's frightening to me how much power these people have and how they manage to brainwash Americans so easily. I think it is because of the combination of the enormous amount of money they have and the declining education of critical thinking skills in American schools.

[Wednesdays]

18. Shhhh...

Before someone comes around and compares you to Joseph McCarthy and Red-baiting. After all, everyone knows there aren't any fundamentalist Christians trying to influence the government...

[ladjf]

22. The human race is still in it's infancy.

The human race has been in existence for probably less than 300,000 years. If true we are a "juvenile" species, growing up with inadequate guidance. We don't have the luxury of possessing instinctive survival tactics, honed of millions of years. (Turtles have been around of over 200 million years. That's a lot of time to learn how to survive.)


It's possible that we resorted to superstitious practices in order to assuage our anxieties. If real information wasn't available, we fabricated it.

Religion is a very dangerous psychiatric activity that afflicts the philosophically immature. So long as humans were clustered in small tribes scattered around the world, the worse that could happen was the death of a few as they battled in local skirmishes. However, in the modern era, it is imperative that control of major WMD not be given to leaders and/or political entities that are under the sway of Religious dogma, especially the apocalyptic sects.

It is a well known fact that the U.S. weapon arsenal has enough power to kill everything on Earth. That power is now in the hands of a man who openly claims that he has been ordained by God and that God tells him what to do. What if God instructs him to use numerous nuclear weapons simultaneously, killing untold millions and polluting the atmosphere of 100,000 years? Can we trust that situation?

The U.S. is currently awarding over a billion dollars to faith based organizations with virtually no over site as to how the money is to be used. This is no more that a straight bribe to these organization. Public education is being phased out only to be replaced by church controlled schools. The outcome of that will be to increase the religious constituency.

At this point in time, life on the planet is at risk of extermination through a political process that has occurred in the U.S., a process that was largely facilitated by the block voting power of the Religious right, mainly centered in the Southern U.S. and particularly among the white males. With the significant assistance of the media, whose interests is financial and other corporate entities, the political power base of the Republican Party has been able to assemble this decisive base.

Unless the current political trend is reversed,there will be massive death, suffering, poverty and destruction, even for those who orchestrated it.

[merh]

43. his god is power and greed

He would never use our military arsenals to destroy other countries, then he would destroy his sources of wealth, the oil and other resources that he & his minions are raping our earth of.

[devinsgram]

45. Sad but true and

they can't even see the writing on the wall.

[ladjf]

47. If we can survive the next hundred years,

there's hope that the human race will mature and learn from the near death experiences of the 20th and 21st centuries. Perhaps they will have become wise enough to never allow dangerous people to assume power.

[RebelOne]

4. Yes, heard them.

I wanted to puke, especially after that woman said that God ordained Bush. Sorry, lady, I'm not a Christian.

Personally, I think they have become brainwashed by their religion.

[DoctorWeird]

6. For some reason...

"CHRISTIANS" love to ignore the New Testament and what CHRIST said in favor of the Old Testament just so they can hate a hell of a lot more people. I say this as a very strong Christian, there is no way anyone can interpret anything Jesus said as hateful. No Biblical scholar worth his salt is going to say the Bible is 100% fact, it's more allegory and re-tooled stories borrowed from other faiths, especially the Old Testament. So let's say for the sake of argument it is, for Fundie purposes. According to the Bible, Jesus didn't even condone the punishment of those who were hanging him on the cross. He ALWAYS taught forgiveness. This is what pisses me off so much, that these Fundies are the biggest hypocrites ever. ALways saying stuff like "I'm a Christian, so it's not my place to judge, but...you're going to hell"

[flobee1kenobi]

8. God did ordain bush

because he sure as hell wasn't elected!
-I never knew you could ordain a presedent, perhaps the repugs have a link to the pertinent line in the Constitution

[LynzM]

17. Hit the nail on the head.

Drives me bonkers. Let's just pay attention to Leviticus, and ignore anything JESUS ACTUALLY SAID. Good grief. For people who claim to be part of a religion that is about love, sharing, caring for people, etc., they sure do a lot of hating.

[mopaul]

7. it's bible prophecy & our great president is bringing it about

that's the line that got to me. these people are DANGEROUS to us all.

[susu369]

61. Awesome pic...that white fluffy stuff

oozing out must be the "beautiful mind" overflowing?

[zydeco]

10. Doesn't the bible mention

beware of false prophets?

[DoctorWeird]

12. Yeah, and

"judge not lest ye be judged" and "those who live by the sword die by the sword". But apparently these Fundies think that to Christians, what Christ said wasn't that important. Further, they ignore the fact that right with the supposedly anti-gay remarks in the Bible there are also remarks against women who are menstruating, wearing clothes with 2 kinds of material, not to mention all of the "unclean" animals.

[July]

11. I would love to know how to determine that God ordained anything.

That is the most self-serving, irrational, unsupported argument I have ever heard.

As many DUers advise, when I hear something like this I'm going to say "Prove it."

[prolesunited]

13. Don't know if that will work in this case

Oh ye of little faith. You can't prove God's wishes. You just have to take it on faith.

How they have determined that they are able to know the mind of God, I have no idea.

[dawg]

15. A good response.

Smack 'em in the head and then smile and say, "Don't get mad, God ordained that, too."

[July]

20. You're making my point.

I am, in fact, "of little faith." And I am saying what you are saying. When people say Bush is ordained by God, they are saying that they know the mind of God, and that they know what he has ordained. They are inferring something they'd like to believe from the fact that Bush is in the White House. I know why I don't believe them -- I'm not a believer. But why do believers believe them? Can't anyone say, "I'm a Christian, and I know that God ordained x?" How do they sort it out among themselves?

[Az]

23. Its the nature of belief

When a church is destroyed by a tornado the survivors thank god for sparing them because they know they were doomed without his intervention. It is simply the nature of how the brain works. Once a belief enters into it and is accepted it creates a template by which subsequent beliefs will be judged. Once a notion of an invisible, intangible, omniscient, benevelant, overseer enters into the mind and is accepted all subsequent actions are filtered through this notion.

When stress or danger are experienced the presumption is that only by god's grace did they survive. Think of it as life under Damocles sword. An all powerful being watches over every single action. The fall of the smallest sparrow does not escape his gaze. Every single action becomes evidence to them of god's presense.

If you are taught that elves cause rain then every rain storm is evidence of elves. Of course not all theists maintain an image of god in this manner. But many do. It is very difficult to get doubt into their mindset. But without doubt they cannot pierce this veil they have placed before their eyes.

[Ripley]

25. But they change their story...

I remember when a horrific tornado destroyed a church north of here a few years ago. It killed about 10 people. One was a small child. His mother said "Thankfully Jesus spared most of our lives." And with her next breath she said "My boy was so special, Jesus couldn't wait to have him at his side in Heaven."

That is nonsense.

[Az]

30. Nope, its all in there

The idea that suicide is bad is critical to the particular belief created by the Christian sects. Consider the belief without the taboo on suicide.

They have created an environment where they believe that the identity survives the body. That is there is a soul and it is immortal. This soul will survive in an environment that will be blissful if one obeys a few critical rules after the body dies. This is essentially death worship. The only thing keeping the entirety of the Christian population from leaping off a cliff in one great lemming impersonation is the taboo on suicide.

Thus while their brains basic wiring for survival makes them appreciate not being wiped out by a tornado the rationalization of the belief consoles them that the identity of the child lives on in a much better place.

[Ripley]

31. Yes, I understand it's rationalization, but it irritates me.

Whenever you corner them on something, they just make up a new answer.

Thou shalt not kill. But what about self-defense killing? Wars? Capital punishment?

Oh, those killings are allowed. :crazy:

[ladjf]

32. In any rational and mature society

Bush's remarks about being ordained by God and getting his instructions from God would have meant almost immediate removal from office on psychiatric grounds. Among mental health experts, a patients reporting of conversations with God amounts to a diagnosis of schizophrenia.

[Az]

35. Um

Not quite. The brain is quite capable of entering a nonschizophrenic state where in it cannot identify its own inner voice as self. This state can be entered in by a number of means including drugs, physical exertion, meditation, fasting, and heat.

Many sects of Christianity are built around the notion of communing with god. It is a learned state of mind that people can enter into. Its not a disorder. Its simply the way our brains work.

[ladjf]

39. I didn't say that a patient's reports of conversations

with God, guaranteed the presence of schizophrenia, only that it would strongly suggest the presence of pathology, possibly schizophrenia. I was simply describing a common practice that I observed when I was a mental health professional.

Your assertions that certain religious sects were able to develop conditioned communications with God are totally anecdotal, or without any objective verification. If we're going to "split hairs" about the definitions of communicating with God, we could both write books on the subject without exhausting our proofs that it is or isn't possible.

Bush said that he got his instructions from God. That's a lot more specific than watching a beautiful sunset and having a feeling that you are "one with God". That might be fine with you and many others. But, it scares the hell out of me.

[Az]

41. It scares me silly

Personally I think that looking forward to the end of the world should be one of the things we look for to reject a person as candidate for leader of the single remaining superpower on the planet.

Don't get me wrong. I am not defending Bush. And I can site a number of studies showing this aspect of the brain. Its a little more complex than just being one with god (although depending on cultural background that may be how some describe the senstation).

My personal take on the situation leans towards the theorised epileptic explanation. There is some conjecture that Bush has been experiencing epileptic seizures. Many of the studies on the god part of the brain are based on the religious experiences of epileptics. The state of mind they enter into after a seizure is ideal for creating this disassociation of self. It may well be that Bush has been experiencing mild seizures and entering into this state of mind where he basically tells himself to attack everyone in the name of god. Thats plenty scary enough without needing to go for a diagnosis of schizophrenia.

[sangh0]

46. Why are you backing away?

Earlier you said:

"Among mental health experts, a patients reporting of conversations with God amounts to a diagnosis of schizophrenia."

Once questioned, you backed off to "it would strongly suggest the presence of pathology, possibly schizophrenia."

Your assertions that certain religious sects were able to develop conditioned communications with God are totally anecdotal, or without any objective verification

The Dalai Lama, and numerous monks, have participated in scientific studies which show that their meditation does cause clinically observable effects. And Az did NOT say "they were able to develop conditioned communications with God " Az said they have trained themselves to enter an altered mental state which makes their own internal thoughts seems as if they came from outside one's own mind, seemingly (but not actually) from God.

[ladjf]

48. My second version was the more precise expression

of my thought. And since Az entered into a discussion with me, I felt I should clear up my definitions.

Your comments that scientific studies confirmed that mental changes were observed among some who carried out certain spiritual practices is probably true. But, observable changes, fail to prove anything about the validity that the people communed with God.

If you are an INTERNET "flamer", lurking around,looking of victims that allow you to feel good about your superior intellect, please don't waste any more time on me. Personally, I'm so pre-occupied with the political disaster that is occurring in America, that I just don't feel inclined to enjoy the sport of debate with those who like that sort of thing.

If you share with me a the fervent desire for Bush to be kicked out this November, let's both use our energies in that direction.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ladjf]

50. Thanks for the info.

I rarely post on DU. But it just so happens that Sang0 seems to have a record of jumping on my posts. I'm not trying to be controversial. I'm networking with other DU in an attempt to put together some type of political strategy that can turn this mess around.

Also, after giving up on mass media, it's great to read the posts on DU, just to reassure me that not all Americans have gone down the "tube" philosophically.

[sangh0]

52. You have a record

of describing the religious as mentally ill.

[ladjf]

56. It is healthy to base one's values on objective deduction.

It is unhealthy to base important life values on ideas that were not acquired through objective logic. There are millions of religious people. I don't believe that their religious practice proves that they are raging lunatics. It's a matter of degree and definition.
Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine and others called themselves Deists. I am a great admirer of those men as well as many other thinkers of the Age of Reason.

I'm not concerned about some student of the Dali Lama, or Buddha. I'm worried about the radical zealots that are insinuating themselves into places of power in order to carry out their religious visions which are often apocalyptic and, therefore, dangerous.

The only reason I've brought up religion in the first place is that in the U.S. the religious coalition is one of the key elements that has catapulted Bush to power. Otherwise, I couldn't care less about the spiritual practices of other people. It is most definitely their business. I think abortion is an awful thing. But, I wouldn't support legislation prohibiting it because it isn't for me to say what a woman does about a thing like that.

[sangh0]

58. You have a lot of faith

It is unhealthy to base important life values on ideas that were not acquired through objective logic

A statement totally devoid of support, such as this one, can only be supported by a faith worthy of the pope.

[sangh0]

51. You are arguing a straw man

But, observable changes, fail to prove anything about the validity that the people communed with God

Neither Az nor I claimed these people were literally "speaking with God". Az spoke of people's ability to bring about an altered mental state where the individual did not recognize certain thoughts as coming from one's own mind. This is an ability that ordinary people have, and is not, in any way, a sign of mental illness.

And if you're concerned with getting rid of Bush*, I'd like to suggest the possibility that describing the religious as being mentally ill is not the most effective way to achieve that goal.

[dawg]

14. Mental disorder.

Have you ever had a day that was so hectic, so many things going on at once that you went into sensory overload and needed to just shut down and have a little "quiet" time? These people are that way 24/7. Their brains cannot cope with nuance and complication and in order to defend themselves from the confusion that would accompany actually thinking about the issues - they retreat into a world of black and white absolutes. This is how they think:

"Conservatives are good, liberals are bad. The U.S. is the best country in the world, whatever it does is right. God is in his Heaven, everything will be OK. Bush is a Christian man, I can trust him to do the right thing. People who oppose him do so because they are against God and America."

Reasoning with these people does no good, because they will not allow themselves to consider any of your arguments, no matter how compelling. It is mentally painful for these people to allow themselves to think about all of the different angles of an issue. In their mind, they are right and they don't even want to think about why they think they are right.

I have not figured out the best way of dealing with these people. They are hard to reach.

[Az]

19. Looking forward to the end of the world (a recipe for disaster)

Recipe for global destruction:

Take one biological sentient entity.

Stir in one meme of god.

Mix in one dash of soul (dettach identity from body and dispose of husk).

Blend in a healthy dose of life after death (add heavenly blend for those that follow the rules).

Add prophecy of end times for taste.

Bake for 2000 years and turnover periodically. Be careful while turning so as not to trigger a schism.

Remove from oven.

Add nuclear arms.

Stand back and wait for end of world.

[LibDemAlways]

21. The repuke party has skillfully married

those who worship at the altar of the almighty dollar with naive fundies who buy the media bs that repukes are the party of morality and that the chimp is a "Christian."

It's frightening that these people are so misguided and gullible. My husband's elderly aunt is a single issue "pro-lifer" and there isn't anything you could tell her that would change her mind about voting for repukes. These people are happily wearing blinders and have no interest in the truth.

[ladjf]

36. Apparently, thousands, if not millions of people,

are aware of how dangerous the current political situation is in the U.S. So far, we've been all talk and no real solutions as to how the Bush cabal can be unseated. The right-wing, plus the fascists machine seems to be able to trump anything we can come up with.

If it boils down to a matter of zeal, then they might better watch out. It appears that the progressives and liberals are becoming extremely zealous in the desire to disallow the overthrow of the American gov.

[Bettie]

24. Sadly, these people prove that Marx was right....

Religion IS the opiate of the masses.

(Oh my, now I sound like a communist, though technically, most communist models are only loosely based on Marxist philosophy....but I digress)

Ultimately, I have great respect for people who find comfort in religion. My grandmother is a religious woman, but she does not accept everything she is told as truth.

At 85 (86?), she believes that blind faith is nothing more than laziness. If you have true faith, you can question things, knowing that in the end, the answer will be found within your faith and not in the mouths of men (and women), who are imperfect.

I recently had a conversation with her about the fundamentalists and her response was that they are, in her opinion, false Christians. They simply parrot what they are told by their false gods (whoever is the fundamentalist mouthpiece of the moment) and do not engage in critical thought or even casual thought about what they are saying and the many contradictions it may contain.

Oh, did I mention that she's a liberal, through and through! I am so proud of my grandma, she is the wisest woman I have ever known.

[Az]

27. Mountains scientists and gurus

It is sometimes said that on the mountain of truth spiritual individuals will be found by scientists as they climb their way towards the top. The idea being that in their spiritual quest they have made leaps and bounds far ahead of science.

This is in part true. Most of the religious and philosophical groups that make use of spiritual ideas have spent centuries contemplating things and examining them. They have used short cuts and evolution being what it is those that have found some measure of truth have survived while those that did not pan out whithered away from this world.

But science will win out in the end. Science is slow and plodding. But unlike the spiritualists it does not leap from peak to peak. It travels the entirety of the valleys, slopes, and crests. While gurus may be able to leap from peak to peak they occaisionally miss entirely and plummet off the mountain of truth. Meanwhile the scientist continues to plod along where ever the mountain takes them.

From this we can see that spiritualists have accumulated a great deal of wisdom. We might not be able to easily seperate truth from bunk within their beliefs but they do contain wisdom. Ignore them at your own peril. They may suprise you. But then again the occaisional plummeting guru should serve as a cautionary to their position as well.

[prolesunited]

42. Your grandma sounds like the kind of Christian

that I truly respect and enjoy being around. You are very lucky to have her in your life. She sounds like a real treasure.

[tom_paine]

33. Nazi Monsters "Gott mit uns."

The Founding Fathers deisgned this country with a mind that the same ignorance that perpetuated the Crusades could neevr be harness for Monstrous Evil.

But it has been. It is. The monsters are out.

They are restless.

They want to burn some liberal witches at the stake, as it was of old.

We must fight these Nazi Monsters, so unquestioningly obedient they WOULD murder us and think Jesus approved (like the Nazis).

We must fight them with our dying breaths.

[mopaul]

34. i believe the fundies are our greatest threat

i have three in my family, and i know how they think. they'd just as soon see the world burnt than give an inch from their death drive to revelations. and now they infest our nation, and our president is one of them. we are in deep shit and we will come to blows with christ's demented devotees.

[Joanne98]

57. There's no doubt about that

I got some in my family. There so crazy they're dangerous. Really.

[Touchdown]

37. The Bible also says this "Rapture" will occur when we least expect it.

"...Like a thief in the night..."

Since the majority of these fundie guys seems to think we are right on the cusp of Armageddon, and never shut up about it, if this revelation book is actually true, then we can be rest assured that it will NOT come any time in the near future.

[merh]

38. IMHO

they read only the cliff notes and not the full text of the book they base their stances on...

My favorite passage which I feel applies to this administration is:

1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues<1> of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal

[molly]

40. It's the psychology of never being blamed

for taking a stand or making a decision. It's easier to do what you are told. Most of us have matured beyond that.

[undergroundpanther]

44. authoritarians

bullies and enablers,it's trauma done twords the individual,millions of individuals who have been hurt in denial,all acting itself out on the world with bad daddy asshole...and passive little kid looking for protection.

[prodigal_green]

53. Mmmmm....koolaid

[prodigal_green]

59. The Pope thinks Bush was chosen

for another purpose...

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880