Poppy & Babs played golf the day after 3 year old daughter died?

[Hamlette]

How is it that these people are seen as normal and moral? Why did this not make the news?

From Salon: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/06/16/bush_on_couch/index.html

Bush's parents dealt with Robin's death by squelching any expression of grief; there was no funeral and they played golf the day after she died.

<snip>

Now (ostensibly) sober, George W. toes the family line, and when he's not letting off steam geopolitically, he uses the outlets favored by his mother, a less-discussed but probably more significant influence on his character. By most reliable accounts a truly scary piece of work, Barbara Bush is known around the Bush home by the nickname "the Enforcer." (A family friend described her to George W. biographer Bill Minutaglio as "the one who instills fear.") Barbara seems to be the source of George W.'s penchant for teasing, that overtly chummy but covertly hostile technique he especially likes to use on the press, who alarm and intimidate him. The animosity swirling beneath the placid surface of the Bush family keeps leaking out in little puffs of chilly spite disguised as jokes, whether it's George W.'s cracking wise about his mother's cooking, referring to his wife as "the lump in the bed next to me," or telling the press that a daughter recently hospitalized for an emergency appendectomy might join the family for a Florida vacation, but "if not, she can clean her room."
<snip>
Frank, who considers Bush to be "an intelligent person whose access to his intelligence hampered by his disabilities" (he suspects attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder and dyslexia), comes up with several reasons for this and other behaviors that cause many to dismiss Bush as stupid.

<snip>
Bush's born-again Christianity, an anomaly in his patrician East Coast clan, serves a similar function. For Bush, faith is less about the joyful worship of God in a community of believers (as Frank points out, he seldom attends church) than it is about forcing a structure on both the world and his own life without the risks inherent in a genuine attempt to understand either one.

If this article was discussed earlier, sorry. It's pretty interesting.

[Valerie5555]

1. Wondered what anyone would have said or thought had those CLINTONS not

acknowledged their own bereavement over a dead child let alone even a DEAD PET (as in Zeke Clinton, the cocker spaniel they had when Bill Clinton was Governor who sadly, :( ly, :cry:ly or tragically, hit by a car and KILLED, not to mention Buddy their former Choclolate Lab "First Pooch" who also met that same fate in 2002.).


On edit I knew for a fact since I could remember reading that the Clintons buried Zeke in the Governor's mansion yard, though I wasn't sure what they did with Buddy.


On edit I wonder how Sen Clinton in particular would have reacted had Chelsea been a victim or even a survivor of the whole World Trade Centre thing for real, since I remembered reading that the stuff about Chelsea being in the area of the World Trade Centre on Sept 11, 2001 was totally DEBUNKED.

[JHB]

47. What's with the stress on "DEBUNKED"?

Apparently only a few days after 9/11 Hillary still had a misconception of her daughter's itinerary that day. That's never happened to a worried parent?

[drfemoe]

2. is there any surprise

that there is an international outcry to restore sanity to the Presidential Office?

It is a must. The world is in harm's way.

[killbotfactory]

3. WTFing Hell? That can't be true, can it?

?!?!

[Hamlette]

5. that was my reaction killbot

I can't believe that a president of the US and first lady played golf the day after their daughter died. And there was no funeral.

As a mother, I can't even imagine it.

[Valerie5555]

7. As I said again I wonder what they did with the body ,

donated it to science perhaps........................

[Nashyra]

10. As a mother you are fucking lucky

you only have to imagine it and not have to go thru it. Until you experience the loss of a child you know not what you are speaking about. Your right it is unimaginable and nothing you ever want to experience.

[SharonAnn]

56. It's called "DENIAL", and alcoholic families do it very well.

Maybe that's part of the reason?

Hard to know, but it sure seems odd, doesn't it?

[TahitiNut]

51. More interestingly: Who cared for George W that day???

Here's a kid whose sister just died. Was he caddying for Puke and Babs? Was he left alone to contemplate death?

[PragMantisT]

4. What? Was there really a Bush sister who died at three?

She must be the only Bush who will not burn in hell.

[Valerie5555]

6. Yes there was a female Bush child who passed away at 3 from CANCER

actually LEUKEMIA.


Her name was Robin Bush.



Holy moly, I wonder what her mom and dad did with her body, then.

[Th1onein]

9. SFrom a parent who lost a child to cystic fibrosis.......

This is unimaginably sick. What is wrong with these people?

[Valerie5555]

12. I bet the story of Miss or as the French say, Mademoiselle Deford

or Alex the life of a child, resonated with you, for that struck close to home.

[Th1onein]

26. Actually, I do not like Frank DeFord.

I read the book, as did my mother, who recommended it to me. DeFord was a chairman of the CF Foundation, afterwards, and as such, perpetuated the idea that there would be a "cure" for CF in the near future. Bullshit. The lungs will not, for a very long time, perhaps for hundreds of years, be a viable target for genetic cures. It is a waste of money, and of hope, and of years of our children's lives, to believe in the world that Frank DeFord would have us believe in.

[Valerie5555]

28. So the best thing to hope for is to help extend the life expectancy of the

CF affected or effected individual as long as possible.


As someone whose cat had to be "put to sleep" because of chronic kidney failure, I wasn't sure what to make of this Cleveland Amory who wrote a trilogy about his cat, Polar Bear, that ended with "The Best Cat Ever," that described how the same thing happened to his cat (or had to be euthanized due to kidney failure.). I at least liked Amory's championship of animal issues and he didn't raise any false hopes for an immediate or impending cure for any sort of feline renal problems.


On edit Though I am no doctor or medical researcher, I thought CF would be something that could eventually be helped by some sort of genetic or stem cell therapy.

[Th1onein]

29. That's what the 'powers that be' say, anyway...........

It's a long, long story, but soon, there will be a way to stop the disease. Not to "cure" it, but to stop it. Log on to www.sharktank.org, and you will see.....

[Valerie5555]

30. May check that page out of curiosity and I wonder if it had something to

do with correcting the genetic error.

[Th1onein]

32. As I said before, you will NOT cure a genetic lung disease in this way!

It would take entirely too long for me to explain, here, why you cannot correct a genetic lung disease by delivering new genes to the lungs, but trust me on this one.

There will be no "cure" for CF for a long, long time. But my group has found a way to stop it, which is just as good, I think.

Especially when you are faced with the alternative.

[Valerie5555]

33. Was just curious as to what you meant by "stop"

wondered if it was in the sense of slowing or stopping the affliction's progression.

[Th1onein]

36. I am talking about making the person "normal" in terms of the pathology

of the disease. This pretty much "stops" the disease, wouldn't you say? Heh.

[Valerie5555]

38. Ah hah I found out it was stuff about some sort of new supplements

to help the affected individual breathe as normally as possible.

[Th1onein]

43. Everything can be considered a "supplement"

The compound that we are going to use is a little too expensive to be considered a supplement, although it does come from a natural source. Lots of drugs do, though.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

44. in tribute to her, the whole family started robbin'

i should say continued robbin'.

[Nashyra]

8. This type of post is over the top

Nobody knows how another person handles the death of their child, and if they wanted to play a round of golf after their daughter died then that's their fucking business. Now I can not stand that family any more than the rest of duer's but to be critical over how they morn the death of their child is none of anyones business. I delivered a still born daughter early in the morning and that afternoon late my husband and I went to the golf course, it was beautiful and peaceful, no phone calls, no interuptions just a very leisure 9 hole round while the sunset, an escape in an otherwise horrible day, I knew she was not going to be born alive a day earlier. As much as I think they are dispicable, greedy and stupid people their grief is their own and is none of anyones business, whether or not they would do it to anyone else, I thought we were better and smarter than that.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nashyra]

16. You are way off base

A stillborn child is viable, is a living human being and was a real person. Your post reveals your ignorance. I experienced alot of feelings with my daughter and your opinion has got to be the most cruel and thoughtless thing I have heard or seen in the 7 years since I lost her. She choked herself or would have been born normal. Once again this type of post is over the top. People deal with grief in different ways, especially when it comes to the DEATH of their Children, those who have no knowledge or have not experienced the loss of a child should not post an opinion, fine to have one, but you do not know how your ignorance hurts another.

[Th1onein]

19. Let me make myself VERY clear here.........

I HAVE lost a child, okay? He died at twenty-one years, of cystic fibrosis. I watched him die. I watched him suffocate to death.

Is there something about that that is NOT clear to you?

[Nashyra]

27. In the first post I replied to you know it was not clear

I'm sorry for your loss. It is horrible at any age, I wish I would have had more memories of my child, instead of only carrying her. I would have given my life for 21 years with her. It is all very personal and that is why I personally think that this is not an area where anyone can be critical, we were not there and everyone deals with it differently, some think that having a still born child is not as difficult as losing a "real" child. It is still difficult just different, you grieve for different reasons, it's still a loss. Once again I'm sorry that I didn't realize you had lost a child.

[Th1onein]

31. This is not something that you can relate to, I am afraid........

I love my son. I will love him forever. Beyond all hope. Beyond death, even.

But, no, if he had died at birth? I would not have hurt as much. I could go into all of his suffering, but I cannot here. I will not.

It is pointless to argue this. You have no idea what I am talking about and I just do not have the stomach to explain it to you here.

Suffice it to say that if you have KNOWN a child, and that child is three years old, the grief is different, okay? You don't play golf on a golf course. You are dead; you are not FUNCTIONING; even for a short amount of time.

What the Bush's did was NOT normal Not normal to anyone who has lost a child that was three years old.

[REP]

42. Very Different Things

While losing a full-term fetus is undoubtedly very sad, it does not compare to losing a person whom you have known and who was capable of knowing you. Going out to play golf the day after their daughter died is horrendously callous; another couple playing golf after a stillbirth is not quite in the same league.

[drfemoe]

13. it's the message..

read the three page article... the focus of the thread could be sharpened by learning more about the context here.
There's much more in the article than this isolated incident.

[Hamlette]

14. sorry, but I think their reaction is over the top

I know people respond to grief differently but in our culture it is socially acceptable to spend a period of time grieving the loss of a loved one. Even if it is not heartfelt.

No one has to do it but if they don't they need to expect people like me to find the behavior strange. Call me a slave to social mores.

Or call me over the top.

Whatever.

[Nashyra]

22. Just because you are on a golf course

does not mean that your are not grieving. I can not believe that I would ever actually be defending this family, I think it is more like letting people know that it is hard to judge what a person will do in that experience and it is extremely personal. So many golf courses are very beautiful and peaceful places, maybe that is where they felt that they could escape. There are plenty of other things to be critical about this family, but this should not be one of them. My daughters sign is a rainbow and while we were on the golf course that evening the sprinklers came on and we came to the conclusion that everytime we saw a rainbow in the sprinkler Nash was speaking to us and telling us she was ok. Now everytime my husband and I golf and we see a rainbow in a sprinkler or a rainbow period we have a conversation with our daughter and when it fades we say goodbye, just like a "phone call" from heaven

[redqueen]

55. You weren't defending them

You were defending yourself, which is understandable.

[cally]

17. Agreed

Most of us have no idea how a family grieves. My husband played golf while my newborn was in intensive care. I was pissed at the time but I now understand it was his way of working out his fears.


I have so many more ways to hate the Bushes. This is not one of them.

[recidivist]

59. On handling grief.

You are making a solid point here. People are different, circumstances are different, expressions of grief are different. I gather from an earlier poster that the Bush's lost their daughter to leukemia. That would have meant a long, painful struggle with a near-certainty of death at the end. (Leukemia is highly treatable today, but it used to be an automatic death sentence.) In these circumstances, death is often a relief when it comes.

I would not presume to judge the amount of suffering involved in watching your child die over a period of many months, or even a year or two. There would not be any shock involved when the end came. If it were me, I think I would have said my goodbyes while the child was still alive, and the actual death would be anti-climatic. I don't think the stiff upper lip thing the day after is terribly misplaced.

[bleedingedge]

62. Sorry for your loss

Additionally, I see that you've taken a lot of flak for taking a principled stand against muckraking.

I agree with you that this type of post is distasteful. There are so many other points on which to pillory the Bush's, this one is just inhumane.

I don't have kids, so I'm probably not the best advocate or ally but I do think it's true that grief is its own thing and how we express it is very personal.

Many people will say that the death of a grandfather is a world of difference away from the death of a child and I won't argue it. But in defense of my position, I was raised without a father and my grandfather took over that role. So I will say, without hesitation, that his death was at least as big an issue to me as the death of a father is to a normal ;) person.

My grandfather had a long battle with lung, spinal and brain cancer. When he died, I never shed a tear. Not one. I was cracking jokes at the wake. My mom asked me why and I told her flat out: I was relieved. He had suffered. A lot. I had reconciled myself to his death long before he was gone and I knew it was to the good that he finally passed.

Cystic Fibrosis is an insidious disease, a ravager. Perhaps the Bush's had reconciled themselves as well. Maybe, in a certain sense, their grief had long since come and gone.

You know, we (Dems) were ready to kill when some pundit (forget who) made the despicable assertion that the Clintons had Chelsea only for political reasons. And yet here we are assailing the Bush family for what we think is an inappropriate expression of grief.

Sometimes I understand why "liberal" has become such a dirty word.

[Must_B_Free]

15. I wouldn't judge people on how you expect them to react to death

people don't react to death the same way. I think it unfair to judge people on this reaction. For one thing, it can take some time for the reality to set in.

Or, being cancer it must have torn them apart for a long time, so maybe it was a relief when it was finally over.

Playing golf could have been symbolic of "carrying on" for them.

There's all sorts of things... But noone can say "you're supposed to act like this"...

[Justitia]

18. here's a link about Robin Bush

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=21590&pt=Robin%20Bush

Apparently, they donated her body to science, but it was later returned to them (?) and they buried her.

She was disinterred and re-buried at Texas A & M University in 2000, home of the GHW Bush Presidential Library.

[Hamlette]

24. all bodies donated to science are returned

in ash form. Unless you don't want the ashes back. But donating a body to science doesn't mean you don't/can't have a funeral.

[heidiho]

46. Did you see what someone wrote on the website

At least you didn't have to live long enough to see what your family did to other children!!

Whoa.

[Djinn]

20. I'm usually considered left of centre

even here at DU and I hate the Bush family with a passion bordering on worrying - but how they greive (or not) is no-one elses business

[TahitiNut]

52. How about how they cared for the other kids that day?

Hmmmm??? :eyes:

[Pithlet]

21. It's hard for me to understand.

But, can't even begin to imagine what it is like to lose a child. I honestly don't know how I would physically react. I know that emotionally and mentally I would be destroyed. I don't like the Bushes, but I can't judge them for that. As cold as it appears, it doesn't mean that they were heartless and didn't love their daughter.

[Catherine Vincent]

23. I don't know if that's true or not but it's not as bad as your parents

giving doctors permission to give one of your teens a lobotomy because she was so called on the wild side. That, imo, is sadistic.

[Valerie5555]

25. If they figured it was "too late" for a medical breakthrough to save their

kid, I am sure they did want to further some sort of research to help some other child through the leukemia nightmare.

[grasswire]

34. Now, watch this drive..... (eom)

[w13rd0]

37. bingo...

...you hit the nail on the head.

Yes, everyone should be able to grieve in their own way, but the Bush family has demonstrated an almost pathological psychosis. A complete disconnect with feeling, absent of any empathy, convinced of their own superiority as a "breed". In another age, they would have been right at home claiming Divine Right to Rule and crushing peasants underfoot.

The Founding Fathers led a revolution to rid us of the lordship of people like the Bush family. They are sick, twisted phucks, and no, they are NOT entitled to "grieve in their own way", because generation after generation of these maggots has fed like parasites on their host country, aiding our enemies, enriching their friends, killing and torturing. Idi Amin and Jeffery Dhamer demonstrated a deeper sense of empathy than these people.

[drfemoe]

35. But they still avoid funerals ..

and "body bags" (transport tubes) (caskets) and all those ugly things that might mess with your head (per Babs).

Of course people have the right to grieve anyway they want/need.
Unless that means bringing MORE GRIEF on the rest of the WORLD.

Please think about what this means. I'm trying to.

[Valerie5555]

39. With the exception of maybe Reagan's

eom

[drfemoe]

40. barely there

from what I've read.
Did not watch any of it.

edit: I have my limits on what I allow into my mind also. Imagine.

[Piperay]

41. With parents like that

I could 'almost' feel sorry for chimp if he wasn't so evil himself. :-(

[Bridget Burke]

45. Golf aside, they slighted their surviving child.

Robin was treated in New York and died there. Young George had not been advised of the seriousness of her condition. His parents returned to Texas with no Robin & got on with their lives. Some kind of memorial service might have helped the boy. Or counseling, or understanding.

As much as I dislike the younger Bush, my liberal bleeding-heart does feel a bit sorry for him.

[Skittles]

48. I'm not comfortable with measuring a person's grief

regardless of what people do, you can never really know what they feel.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vickers]

53. I'm on your side. I'm more concerned with what politicians do policy-wise

than I am with their private lives.

Oh, if only the majority of RWers felt that way!

[mwar]

50. I hate golf

[put out]

54. Please don't mistake me.

I am a big detractor of this family. They can do no right by me.

But can you put this behavior into the context of the times? No one spoke of unpleasantness. No one mentioned that an "accident" was actually suicide. No one mentioned why Aunt so and so went away for a visit with relatives for five months, and then suddenly other relatives ended up with a brand new baby. No one mentioned that Cousin so and so was "funny" around kids.

No one mentioned that Grandpa was actually Grandma's second husband. No one mentioned that another Grandma was actually a great aunt. No one mentioned that the cousin who died in Vietnam actually falsified his age to enlist, in order to get away from abuse. No one mentioned that Aunt so and so got married at fifteen to get out of the house and she wasn't even pregnant...

People did not talk about hard truths. They just did not do it in those times. Maybe they thought George would not remember his little sister. It is so very hard to imagine that thinking, but I can assure you that these behaviors went on in my family.

I don't give this family an inch, but things were very different then (I hope).

[redqueen]

57. This is SICK behavior

I'm shocked and dismayed by all the 'so what let them do what they want' commentary here.

We are not talking about a child that was stillborn. We are not talking about parents with no other children to consider.

And there is NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that George W., and most likely their other children, would VERY DEFINITELY remember their lost sister.


This thread is sad. Just sad.

[Pithlet]

63. Your comments

are a little off base. "We aren't talking about a child that was stillborn". People who mourn the loss of a stillborn child are still mourning the loss of a child. Dealing with the loss of a child born dead is not "grief lite". And, when talking about "appropriate grief" what does it matter if parents have other children to consider?

There is nothing sad about refusing to judge how other people handle grief. How someone looks and acts on the outside isn't always an indication of how much they are grieving, or how well they're dealing with the loss, particularly if they are strangers that you do not know intimately.

[redqueen]

65. Not all losses are equal

Yes, people dealing with the loss of a child before they had a chance to know it grieve as well, but are you really honestly and sincerely trying to equate that with the grief of a parent who has lost a child they raised?

And are you honestly and sincerely sitting there asking me what does it matter if they have other children to consider????

There is something VERY sad and WRONG when people don't see how having other surviving children grieving their sibling's death *alone* while the parents play golf is something that matters.

Please don't waste any more of your time trying to tell me how I am just not seeing their internal grief. I'm not buying.

[Southsideirish]

58. "The very rich are different than you and I." n/t

[GoldenOldie]

60. Babs Grieving????

I remember a similar post...a while back and someone posted that when George W. was shipped off to prep-school, Andover, his class was to write a paper on something that happened to them that had an affect in their life. George W. wrote about the loss of his sister, Robin. After reading Georgie"s paper, the instructor was concerned about George and notified mommy, Barbara Bush, who immediately reprimanded Georgie about leaving such things within the family.

Would appreciate if anyone else remembers this post or if senility is setting in????

[smirkymonkey]

66. Yes, they have no conscience...

n/t

[SmokingJacket]

61. There are so many other reasons to criticize the Bushes

that I think it's wrong to fault them -- even demonize them -- for the way they handled their daughter's death. They're human and there's no evidence that playing golf was some kind of celebration or something.

Focus on the all the other stuff, why don't we?

[yodermon]

64. Barbara used little Dubya to cheer herself up after Robin's death

From http://lists.topica.com/lists/psychohistory/read/message.html?mid=1715813773

"...You can start with Bill Minutaglio, "First Son: George
W. Bush and the Bush Family Dynasty." NY: Three Rivers Press, 1999,
where he says Bush admitted "his mother kind of smothered me...she's
the one who instills fear." And that Barbara would "slap them around"
a lot when they were children, and when his little sister Robin died
in 1953 of leukemia, George said, "Mother's reaction was to envelope
herself totally around me." She went into a long period of
depression, and George was expected to cheer her up. Later, in high
school and college, he became a cheerleader, and remains a
cheerleader for his Motherland today"

[drfemoe]

67. oh wow . n/t