911 comes down to a failure of the air traffic controllers to noftify the

[Pallas180]

air force to scramble or anyone else. Twenty minutes after the WTC
Cleveland was still asking, do you think we should ask the Air Force to scramble? and the supervisors said no.

On top of that, when Langley sent up the F 15's they thought they were looking for ICBM missiles from Russia. No one told them they
were looking for hijacked planes that were being used as missiles.

When they saw the Pentagon on fire they thought they had let an ICBM
missile get through.

But the main responsibility is the stupidity of the air traffic controllers. Yes they are trained to be calm at all times, but does that mean their brains are in "prozac" mode.

[GR]

1. I Couldn't Understand The Tape Either..."We Have Planes..."

was garbled by the accent of Atta, I guess it was.

Why was Bush sitting for "5-7 minutes" listening to a story about a goat?....Why would Cheney and Rice tell Bush is was a twin engine private plane that crashed? Aren't they somehow connected with NATIONAL SECURITY?...what a bunch of dicks...

[Zan_of_Texas]

11. According to David Ray Griffin, author of The New Pearl Harbor

There are 100 intercepts a year -- jets scrambled to escort or check on an errant plane.

This is not dependent on a presidential decree, folks -- it's standard operating procedure.

When golfer Payne Stewart's plane went off course, it took 18 minutes to get jets up to see what was up.

But, numbers vary from 42 minutes to over an hour for the time available to get jets up to stop the Pentagon attack. As Griffin notes, the Pentagon is presumably "the most defended bldg on the face of the earth." There are numerous air bases nearby.

If this is just mammoth incompetence, who has been fired? Who has been demoted?

No one.

WTF are we paying for if even the military's headquarters is not protected?


When you put it all together, the various threads of "incompetence" and "glitches" (oh please) pile into a mountain.

Now they're saying NORAD was only supposed to defend against planes coming from OUTside the U.S. Oh. Of course. Four planes turn into suicide attacks and NORAD says, "Sorry. We're at lunch. We can't lift a finger." Right. These people sit there for years with no attacks, and one happens and it's not in their job description?


Imagine if you will that the entire CIA and NSA didn't exist. Just imagine that there is one agent and one secretary at a desk. Then follow along -- numerous foreign intell groups call the secretary and say, "Hey, US, you are going to be attacked." The secretary tells the agent, the agent passes it along, and the higher ups say, HEY we have trouble!

But, no, we are spending, what, $25 billion? $50 billion a year? And we can't even pass along the messages of foreign countries, much less protect the country?

Here is someone's past DU post on those warnings:

According to this post at DU, the Bush Administration had repeated warnings of Al Qaeda hijackings prior to 9/11
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=13> 75723#1375930

The Taliban warned:
"Weeks before the terrorist attacks on 11 September, the United States and the United Nations ignored warnings from a secret Taliban emissary that Osama bin Laden was planning a huge attack on American soil."
<http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=331115>

The Germans warned:
"According to an article in one of the major daily newspapers in Germany, published just after the destruction of the World Trade Center, the German intelligence service BND told both US and Israeli intelligence agencies in June that Middle East terrorists were 'planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture.'
"The newspaper cited unnamed German intelligence sources, who said that the information came through Echelon, the US-controlled system of 120 satellites which monitors all worldwide electronic communications. Echelon is operated jointly by the United States, Canada, Britain, Australia and New Zealand, although its existence is not officially admitted."
<http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/sept-j16.shtml>

The Egyptians warned:
"Egyptian intelligence warned American officials about a week before Sept. 11 that Osama bin Laden's network was in the advance stages of executing a significant operation against an American target, President Hosni Mubarak said in an interview on Sunday."
<http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/04/national/04WARN.html>

The Russians warned:
According to Russian press reports, Russian intelligence notified the CIA during the summer that 25 terrorist pilots had been specifically training for suicide missions. In an interview September 15 with MSNBC, Russian President Vladimir Putin confirmed that he had ordered Russian intelligence in August to warn the US government "in the strongest possible terms" of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings.
<http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/sept-j16.shtml>

The French warned:
"A key point in unraveling why the FBI failed to follow up leads on Al Qaeda terrorism now centers on the Bureau's contemptuously brushing aside warnings from French intelligence a few days before 9-11."
<http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0222/ridgeway2.php>

The British warned:
"Britain gave President Bush a categorical warning to expect multiple airline hijackings by the al-Qaeda network a month before the September 11 attacks which killed nearly 3000 people and triggered the international war against terrorism."
<http://www.sundayherald.com/24822>

The Israelis warned:
The London Telegraph: "Israeli intelligence officials say that they warned their counterparts in the United States last month that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent."
<http://tinyurl.com/28rrh>

The Moroccans warned:
"A Moroccan secret agent, Hassan Dabou, had penetrated al Qaeda for two years, breaking cover the summer of 2001 to warn of 'spectacular' attacks in New York in the summer or autumn of 2001. Secret service chiefs are said to have taken seriously the tip from one of its veteran informants and immediately passed on the details to Washington."
Times of London, June 12, 2002

Arab intelligence agencies warned:
"When the hubbub about what the White House did or didn't know before Sept. 11 dies down, Congressional or other investigators should consider the specific warnings that friendly Arab intelligence services sent to Washington in the summer of 2001."
<http://www.iht.com/articles/58269.html>

[LittleApple81]

2. I don't quite believe it because I think the tapes from the controllers

that was totally, and irretrievably, destroyed by the supervisor might say otherwise. And, by design, we will never know.

[DenverDem]

3. Horseshit.

White wash.

[LiberalCat]

6. Exactly.

Air traffic controllers are not responsible for National Defense.

[Corgigal]

4. The controllers

did their jobs. The first thing a controller wants to do is the pass on that information because all recordings are taped and you want that time on your voice giving that information. You give initials on all calls.

I never met a stupid air traffic controller and I knew this administration would do this. Please notice how no controller is in front of the panel and I know some of the controllers are working with the New Jersey widows.

[randr]

5. Would these be the same air traffic controllers

that Reagan hired?
At one time the organization of air traffic controllers was a group of very professional individuals with a mission.
They were displaced by Reagan by nothing more than temp help at the lowest cost.
I do not mean to lay they entire blame on these people for the 9/11 failure but we need to look at the entire situation in order to determine how bad all this expedient downsizing has affected our national security.

[Walt Starr]

7. Comes from years of "scab" labor

This is what Union busting got us.

Ronnie Raygunzzzaaaapp is directly responsible for 9/11.

[happyExpat]

10. I dont think it was ATCers

although I haven't managed to keep myself well informed of the timelines, etc. But I can remember a few years ago how some little charter jet carrying a professional golfer, Payne Stewart I think, managed to rate an escort of several F-16's as it crossed the country merely by losing radio contact. (Unfortunately it turned out that the crew and passengers were incapacitated somehow, and all died) NM that there were one, then two planes intentionally crashed, and others KNOWN to be hijacked, and nobody did anything. It really doesn't take long for an F-16 or 15 to fly at supersonic speed to intercept a much slower moving airliner. Mind you the ANG keeps such aircraft on hot alert 24-7 for such incidents, or to intercept unidentified planes suspected of drug smuggling, or for whatever other situation that may arise.

Having been a lowly wrench monkey in the air guard at one time (one who wasn't AWOL) I find it hard to believe that there was such a slow response. I don't know everything, but I know it doesn't take a presidential order to launch an intercept mission...(to shoot down an airliner, maybe - but not to launch and escort)...

[newyawker99]

17. Hi happyExpat!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Branjor]

8. Sounds like.....

another case of scapegoating to me. "Bad intelligence" was blamed for the assertion that Iraq had WMD and therefore the invasion was justified, now the air traffic controllers are being blamed for the lack of air defense response on 9/11.

[madmom]

16. there's plenty of blame to spred.

I wonder why elected repukes never accept any, are they really lily white?

[MadHound]

9. Sorry but you can't scapegoat the air traffic controllers

Yes, they have a responsibility to report unusual happenings, but NORAD is ultimately in charge of our air defense. As such, they do have feeds to ALL traffic control centers, and have a full real time picture of what is going on up in the air. Air traffic controllers are responsible for air traffic. NORAD is who is responsible for air defense, and on 911 they failed miserably.

Standing orders dictate that when there is any hijacking or suspicious activity in the air, fighter planes are sent up ASAP. There are planes and pilots constantly at the ready, set to go within a matter of minutes. On 911, these four planes were reported as hijacked forty five minutes before the first one hit the WTC. No planes were scrambled, no air defense was present for the entire event. Somebody canceled the Standing Orders. Who? It had to be somebody high up the chain of command. Find out who this person was and you will find the truly guilty party.

[Habibi]

21. Eberhardt just said that because of the questions

about NORAD's role in post-Cold War defense, many fewer aircraft were kept on alert. At one point, according to him, there was discussion of keeping *no* aircraft on alert. Does this sound true?

[MadHound]

25. Not really, consider the case of Payne Stewart.

The golfer Payne Stewart was on a flight from Florida when his plane started going off course. Withing minutes, there were three fighter planes up in the air with him, reporting on his plane's condition. Two fighter planes escorted that jet across the country until it's final demise in South Dakota. This was in 1999. And this is only one of a number of examples, both before and since the end of the Cold War.

It sounds to me like Eberhardt is simply trying to whitewash this question out of existence. Are they going to sit there with a straight face and tell us that a Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II administration would actually try to cut back on NORAD, especially since NORAD's budget has been increased each and every year? What a joke friend.

[tom_paine]

12. Good God, that s such a load of Soviet/Nazi bullshit

You know, there is no bout about it.

In the realm of shameless lie-telling, and thankfully, thus far ONLY in that realm, the Busheviks have now equalled the Soviets and Nazis.

The Phony Terrorism Report of 2003 cinched it.

[Wickerman]

13. Its not the Controller's fault

From what I hear this morning the controllers did their jobs. Its the management that failed, from NORAD all the way to the little guy who was reading children's stories while NY burned.

[AlCzervik]

18. The same Norad that

that scrambled jets to go after the Payne Stewart plane. It's amazing that they didnt act with the same speed over 911.

[Wickerman]

23. Or last week when the Gov of some Southern state drove his

twin engine in to Washington airspace :eyes:

[AP]

14. Maybe it's time to check to see if the Cleveland supervisor has a swiss...

...bank account with a couple million in it.

[Kahuna]

15. It comes down to the FAA (bush admin) not warning the airlines..

of a possible hijacking.

[Red State Rebel]

19. In hindsight, things always look differently

When I think of how it all transpired and how absolutely freaking incredible it must have sounded to hear this must have been, I don't blame Air Traffic Controllers.

People had to be second guessing themselves at all levels that morning. I don't think there was any way to be prepared for something this awful and out of the ordinary.

[shance]

20. How much more can you offend the truth, and the victims that were killed?

n/t

[porphyrian]

22. Another Reagan Legacy

That great man did for air traffic controllers what G. W. is doing for us today, and neither have had the common decency to offer a reach-around. I'm not surprised post-Reagan, post-Clinton economy (booming, bureaucratic growth) air traffic controllers were basically useless (or, more fairly, air traffic controller supervisors rendered them useless). Everyone's still got flags at half-mast, right?

[Zan_of_Texas]

24. DON'T BLAME THE AIR CONTROLLERS

Their tapes have been erased.

Think about the number of states the errant planes passed over, and potentially how many controllers knew they were off course. They ALL messed up? Come on, use your brain.

[skypilot]

26. Doesn't NORAD have radars???

Why would or should the air traffic controllers be the only ones following blips on a radar screen? There's no way the security of our air space and of our country rest primarily in the hands of air traffic controllers.