In the realm of Orwellian Lie-Telling, AND THAT ALONE, are the Bushes

[tom_paine]

Poll question: In the realm of Orwellian Lie-Telling, AND THAT ALONE, are the Bushes

equal in stature to the Soviets/Nazis/Khmer Rouge/Idi Amin/Saddam Totalitarian Bastards of the World?

First, let me say I strongly desire civilized discourse here. I don't want to get in flame wars and damnit, I KNOW what the "you crazy tinfoiler brigade and I know what the 'shh, don't offend the Might Bushevik Sub-Media-- Please Don't Hurt Me' crowd has to say.

I want to hear from the rest of you. Let's talk about this.

And remember, we are ONLY discussing Lie-Telling here. Size and strength and relative cost of apparatus. Necessary levels of both tacit and implicit (hub-and-spoke) conspiracies and law breaking (eg the Arkansas Project and the Federaist Society) required to have made it all happens (also as outlined by David Brock in "Blinded by the Right".

So let's discuss, and do so civilly, this ONE ASPECT of Totalitarianism.

The ONE ASPECT of Totalitarianism that the Busheviks are furthest advanced on. The BIG PR. The Mindf*ck. The George Orwell follies. Slime and defend. Lie and retract quietly. All of the mighty apparatus of Goebbels v2.0.

One simple question: In THIS REALM and THIS REALM alone of Orwellian Lie-Telling, Have the Busheviks equalled the Bolsheviks on the Left and the Nazis on the right (that's right, dumbass Freeps)?

DU Brain Trust...go to it.

[daveskilt]

1. the basics are there but not fully enforced yet

they have the whole war is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery thing down pat -BUT Michael Moore is not locked up in the ministry of love yet is he?

they tell the lies almost to the point of the totalitarian regimes you listed (not quite as blatant - all news stations are not yet fox) but they don't suppress dissent as fully or as well.

I suppose the lies are there but not as loud, frequent or alone as they were in the nazi or stalinist states.

[asthmaticeog]

2. I voted "not yet"

but I had to think about it for a minute. They ARE awfully damn close - but there's still actual dissent available for those who'd seek it. Krugman still gets published in the NYT; various openly-left, independently owned altweeklies like The Bay Guardian and the Free Times still publish criticism of the * administration; Harpers, The Nation and AAR haven't had their offices raided by stormtroopers yet... so we haven't reached the Pravda point. That said, the right-wing domination of media (and their impressively felicitous use of doublespeak) is overwhelming and terrifying. It's just not complete.

[MallRat]

3. They're not quite there yet.

Come now, Mr. Paine. Their lies have only killed thousands, not millions.

Ask me again once they've added a couple of zeros to the death toll.

:-(

-MR

P.S. Of all their tactics, I have to say that they are true masters of the "lie and retract quietly" maneuver.

[drumwolf]

4. i think it's far more sophisticated and subtle

Traditional totalitarian regimes tend to be crude, blatant and upfront with the nature of their propaganda, the way they disseminate said propaganda, and the way they deal with dissent.

Here it's much more clever and subtle. The RW "outsources" the dirty work of spreading propaganda and squelching dissent to their buddies in the "private sector" rather than use the government itself. Fox, Limbaugh, Coulter, the think tanks like Heritage or AEI, etc.

They also don't use an iron fist to deal with dissent. As long as the bulk of the ignorant sheeple believe their bullshit, they don't need to take direct action against those few people who dissent. They can rely on local RW radio talk-show hosts to inflame the most ignorant of their listeners to do that for them.

[tom_paine]

10. You are correct about that.

In some ways they have surpassed the Soviets/Nazis, in technique.

But that is only natural. We have had 60 years of "progress" in psychomanipulation techniques.

[Minstrel Boy]

5. They have equalled and surpassed their fascist forebearers.

Nothing in history has matched the scale or efficacy of their infrastructure of deception.

[tom_paine]

6. Wups. Almost forget to vote, meself...

I voted Choice #1: Equal to the Soviet/Nazis.

Naturally. It's the sad, pathetic truth for America, or will we continue to be Amerika?

The world holds it's breath like it's 1938.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

7. Well, they seem to be able to re-write history as it happens

without any opposition or consequences. For example bushie saying with a straight face that Saddam Hussein refused to let the inspectors in just a few months after the inspectors had to leave Iraq because of the upcoming invasion. (Bush Said:"We gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in." Bush Press Conference 7/14/2003). There are other examples of this. Such as Cheney's moronic fixation with Hussein and Al Qaeda ties. I'm sure we can come up with many more examples in a short amount of time.

[ewagner]

8. Didn't vote but offer

a (hopefully)intelligent observation.

More than any organization in history, the Bush* Administration and, by extension, the Republican Party has controlled both the media and the message. These people have raised information control (staying "on message") to an art form. They have employed techniques of marketing and propaganda so skillfully that the mind boggles at their sheer audacity.

Take, for example, the most recent claims by Cheney that Sadam and Al Queda were linked. There are tons and tons of sources to the contrary but Cheney makes the claim anyway and Bush backs him up. The technique is the big lie, by a figure of authority, sculpted to an audience of true believers who will spread the word and ridicule those who contradict the information.

I think because of the advanced communications technology available to the Bush* administration, they have surpassed by far anything we have ever seen and by doing so, defy comparison to any other regime in history.

[tom_paine]

9. Yep. I was considering a "worse than" option based on that line of reason

But I opted not to.

Now it's too late. The poll stands as is.

[Beetwasher]

12. Agreed!

You summed it nicely and echoed my sentiments.

They've learned will from their forbears (Nazi's/Soviets) and brought it to the next level.

[truthspeaker]

11. not yet, but remember it took the Nazis and Bolsheviks a few years

to get rolling.

[Delano]

13. Actually, they've surpassed the Nazis and Soviets...

Not in terms of sheer villainy, but in terms of the sophistication of the propaganda. It's so slicky done that most people have no idea that they are watching propaganda....

[tom_paine]

14. I know. I wish I'd included that option