Dem Commissioner Kerrey: NORAD "covered in glory" on 9/11

[paulthompson]

Here's an interesting quote from today's 9/11 hearings. Glad to see Daschle appointed this guy (sarcasm). He's talking to the heads of NORAD about 9/11:

BOB KERREY: I've got some concern for the military in this whole situation, because the optics for me is that you all are taking a bullet for the FAA. I appreciate that may be wrong but that's how it appears. Because, General Arnold, you in particular on the day, covered yourself in glory. And I think the military performed, under the circumstances, exceptionally well.

[aquart]

1. It's KERREY. And he seems to be insane.

[buycitgo]

4. hey! quit reading my mind!

that was EXACTLY my first thought, as soon as I saw who it was.

that is the Occam's razor explanation for his myriad unresolvable statements throughout these hearings

why didn't Daschle appoint Kristen Breitweiser?

was he kept from appointing any of the moms for some procedural reason?

oops.....I almost thought for a second that this commission was DESIGNED to get at the truth of what happened

back to reality

[Elidor]

2. Exceptionally well...err, as far as doing NOTHING WHATSOEVER!

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. I guess what they did is still classified?

:eyes:

[Kikosexy2]

3. Huh???? did I miss ..

something here or geez did some 3000 innocent lives taken away from us that day??

[Catfight]

7. and Bush turned the other cheek and allowed it to happen....

and then the great cover-up began so he could justify his agenda to liberate the oil of Iraq. Would you care about the lives in Iraq and how many they've lost since Bush has entered the WH? Probably not, everyone knows if you're born in America your life is so much more valuable than anyone else on this planet. You're not missing a thing...you're missing everything.

[Pepperbelly]

5. NORAD didn't miscue ...

the FAA did. And, to be utterly truthful, it is easy to understand how difficult it was for them to put together until it was too late.

Kerrey is right. NORAD performance was fine. Not "covered in glory" but workmanlike and efficient.

[KittyWampus]

6. But The Air Traffic Contollers MUST Have Called The Military

and the military stood down.

How can he say this.

:wtf:

[Pepperbelly]

8. but they didn't ....

not until it was far too late ...

[KittyWampus]

9. Pepperbelly, The Timeline Indicates Otherwise

standard operating procedure would have had the controllers on the phone WAY before impact of at LEAST the second air plane.

It is untenable- to believe that controllers failed not once, not twice, not thrice but FOUR times to notify the military.

And the tape that would prove they called the military was been destroyed by being cut into lots of little pieces and distributed in garbage cans throughtout the building.

The contollers and military commanders on duty that day needed to testify under oath. Were they?

[Pepperbelly]

10. did you hear the tape of the notification of NORAD that was released ...

today?

Remember, notifying NORAD means that NORAD has to scramble jets which they did ... some F-15s, and then direct the interceptors to the target. NORAD scrambled them immediately and the jets took up CAP over Long Island. They had no vectors to targets or any way of discerning which airplane to shoot down.

I just think that people misunderstand the mechanics of air intercept. It is nothing like a video game. It is confusing with tons of video on the radar screen and no way to tell who is who unless they are controlled in the intercept.

That data was not provided, according to the commission, while the planes were still in-flight. In fact, by the time NORAD got the info necessary, the last plane had already crashed in Pennsylvania. SOPs are well and good but the even the best plans evaporate when it hits the real world.

[paulthompson]

11. please

educate yourself. Here's something to chew on:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/061704-911timelineupdate.html

[Pepperbelly]

12. I have had that bookmarked forever and read it several times ...

So rather than a snarky fucking "educate yourself", perhaps you should talk to people who have actually controlled intercepts and whose knowledge surpasses video games and conspiracy theories.

Have you ever looked at radar video and tried to sort out who is who even WITH IFF?

:eyes:

[paulthompson]

15. Given that I put that particular webpage up an hour ago...

I'd be curious to see how you could have read it several times already. If you look strictly at when NORAD was notified, they did a terrible job. For instance, in the last NORAD related hearing, the NORAD folks admitted they could have shot down Flight 77 if they acted sooner. Why didn't they reach Flight 77 in time?

From the Wall Street Journal, 4/1/04:

Once they got in the air, the Langley fighters observed peacetime noise restrictions requiring that they fly more slowly than supersonic speed and take off over water, pointed away from Washington, according to testimony before the commission. (Gen. Quenneville of the Massachusetts Air National Guard said the fighters from Otis Air Force Base ignored peacetime rules because the lead pilot concluded they faced an extraordinary situation.)

---

And here, from today commission's staff report. It talks about them going over the ocean, but not about flying below supersonic, even though the supersonic mention in the WSJ came from testimony to the commission!:

At 9:36, the FAA’s Boston Center called NEADS and relayed the discovery about the aircraft closing in on Washington, an aircraft that still had not been linked with the missing American 77. The FAA told NEADS: “Latest report. Aircraft VFR six miles southeast of the White House. … Six, southwest. Six, southwest of the White House, deviating away.” This startling news prompted the Mission Crew Commander at NEADS to take immediate control of the airspace to clear a flight path for the Langley fighters: “Okay, we’re going to turn it … crank it up. … Run them to the White House.” He then discovered, to his surprise, that the Langley fighters were not headed north toward the Baltimore area as instructed, but east over the ocean. “I don’t care how many windows you break,” he said. “Damn it… Okay. Push them back.”

The Langley fighters were heading east, not north, for three reasons. First, unlike a normal scramble order, this order did not include a distance to the target, or the target’s location. Second, a “generic” flight plan incorrectly led the Langley fighters to believe they were ordered to fly due east (090) for 60 miles. The purpose of the generic flight plan was to quickly get the aircraft airborne and out of local airspace. Third, the lead pilot and local FAA controller incorrectly assumed the flight plan instruction to go “090 for 60” was newer guidance that superseded the original scramble order.

---

And then if you look at the statements of the pilots themselves, they say they were tasked to go to New York City, not Washington, DC, something the commission doesn't even mention. The staff report concludes by suggesting that even if Flight 93 made it to Washington around 10:20, it's still not clear if fighters would have been alerted to shoot them down.

I sure don't see NORAD covered in glory.

[Pepperbelly]

my mistake ... it was your earlier timeline I had bookmarked but ...

if you had read what you posted, you would've noted several things entirely consistent with what I posted above before your snarky "educate yourself".

First and foremost, advising the pilots that the bogy was 6 miles from the Whitehouse translates into roughly one minute of flight time. The Pentagon roughly another 6 or so? Another minute.

Dispassionate quotations from reporters do not portray what it is like. Quotations can be read and pondered and other resources brought to bear none of which the pilots or the intercept controllers had.

What they had was two minutes.

And you want to throw stones?

I did not say they were covered with glory. Kerrey did. But what I do say is that their response was workmanlike and efficient. They were not at fault.

[paulthompson]

22. yes

I do want to throw stones. I want the people who failed on 9/11 to be named and face the consequences. I agree that most of the rank and file performed admirably and their jobs are very tough, but there were some massive failures. For instance, the fighters going from Langley to Washington around 9:30 apparently didn't even know there was an emergency going on, even though the ones dispatched to New York half an hour were told it was an emergency. Someone screwed up. Half the country knew much more than those fighter pilots. Who dropped the ball there? How and why? I want to know. Another example: Air Force One takes off and flies for an hour or more without fighter escort, despite nearby bases and probably being told to scramble well before Air Force One taking off. Why? I could point out many other such failures, but I don't have time for all these long posts.

[Pepperbelly]

24. Those guys ...

had not enough time to do anything. The pilots had two minutes max. It is very easy to cast stones from the safety of your home with a year and a half to reflect on what happened. It is a far more difficult thing to do in real time. So throw stones to your heart's content but unless you have some personal experience in air intercept, it's just abstract, armchair quarterbacking. On Monday morning. A year later.

[bpilgrim]

26. when i was in the military we were constantly trained to REACT to 911

emergencies... after so many drills i din't even need to think about it anymore just did it.

this even took almost 2 fucking hours to unfold and they couldn't even protect the pentgon :crazy:

sorry... i'm gone need a hell've lot more than that.

:hi:

peace

[Pepperbelly]

17. delete ... premature snapulation...

[Pepperbelly]

18. please delete ... premature snapulation

[bpilgrim]

21. thank you very much paulthompson

as always, for paying attention to the details and then summerizing them for the rest of us :toast:

peace

[bpilgrim]

14. why did SOP evaporate?

that's what i want to know.

i haven't read their report yet... just got home from work but after 3 1/2 of reading the official story i am sure it wont answer all the questions.

i am very interested to hear there story regarding wtc7.

peace

[Pepperbelly]

19. SOPs ALWAYS evaporate ...

when contact is made.

[bpilgrim]

20. pfft...

wtf is that supposed to mean :shrug:

peace

[Pepperbelly]

23. no plan ...

ever survives the first contact.

That is why people die in wars. Everyone has plans. For the good they do.

[bpilgrim]

25. SOP

is a set of procedures that are drilled into your head to REACT to i ain't talking about a 'plan' where was the REACTION and why wasn't there any?

normally when things don't go according to plan folks like to hear WHY with DETAILS no just 'D'oh!'

:hi:

peace

[papau]

16. Norad had 14 F-14's - and no direct control of the other 5000 we have

To have 14 planes on alert nationwide was more than I expected - that may be what he is talking about.

However why Norad had to own planes - rather than have authority to order other folks planes into the air - is beyond me.

The direct call by Boston Controllers to Norads Northeast operation is the only thing that got any action on 9/11.

The Boston calls to the FAA were sent up the line to DC and never resulted in any actions.

After all 4 planes have hit the ground, the Pres calls Cheney from his seat in Airforce one, and Tells Cheney to order and Cheney then orders shoot down, but then Langley's F-14's go up with no shoot down orders - just ID and tail!

After all the F'k ups by everyone else, Norad looked good!

Hell they (Controllers/Norad)wanted the F-14's in NYC area to hang over Manhattan - but the smart folks had them hang a little off the Coast.