BBV: Well...what do you know! Voter Verified Paper Ballot!

[Andy_Stephenson]

Several organizations, are going to deliever petitions about voting
machines to the states on July 13. I am writing to find out if
Washington is interested in participating for your state. The
conference call is tomorrow and I am working on getting the number and
room number. Let me know. ~Alison

The memo:

This July 13th will be a big day in the work to protect the November
elections from computer error and fraud. We hope you will be part of
making it happen.

Overview
-------------
On that day, local activists and members of eight national
organizations will simultaneously converge on statehouses across the
country. They'll deliver hundreds of thousands of petitions demanding
that state officials provide a voter-verified paper ballot this
November. They'll also be armed with a Pledge to support paper ballots
signed by elected officials across the country, and will ask their
officials to make the same promise.

By doing this in many states (perhaps as many as 16), and with the
participation of Ben Cohen of Ben&Jerry's fame, Gov. Howard Dean, and
potentially other well-known celebrities, we'll make the biggest media
splash yet on this vital issue. We'll also bring significant pressure
to bear on these state officials to provide an alternative to the
programming bugs and security holes known to exist in the current crop
of paperless computer voting machines.

The event is being coordinated by TrueMajority, MoveOn, Democracy For
America, Common Cause, Verified Voting, Working Assets, Electronic
Frontier Foundation and Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility, representing a combined membership of more than 3
million people. Each group will mobilize its members to attend the
state events, so we can expect a good turnout. Full-time public
relations folks will be working the press to make sure reporters and
cameras show up, too.

What We Want
--------------------
The political situation in each state is different < some states have
already bought computer voting machines, others haven't; some have
election officials openly hostile to our cause, others seem willing to
compromise.

We need to present a united front in order to get maximum mileage in
the media about this National Day of Action. At the same time, we
want to support your group in seeking whatever specific computer
voting policy you're already pursuing. So the question "What Do We
Want" has two answers:

1. Sign the Pledge for Ballot Security. This is the single mantra that
we'll all repeat, unifying us across the country. The Pledge is very
short and simple. It says that the targeted official supports
voter-verified paper ballots, that they will do everything in their
power to make them available by November, and that they'll make sure
disabled voters can vote independently.

2. If there is a specific policy goal appropriate for your state (e.g.
"open the purchasing process for voting machines to the public"),
there will be room for using the event to push that goal as well.

Working Together
-----------------------
The national groups have been meeting for a couple of weeks creating
the outline of the National Day of Action. Each group has one or more
coordinators working on that committee; most likely one of those
coordinators sent you this introductory memo.

Each coordinator is responsible for working with the local organizers
in a particular state. They'll be your main connection for logistical
support, schedule updates, press materials, etc.

Your Mission (If You Choose To Accept It)
----------------------------------------------------
In case you haven't organized many press conferences/rallies before,
we have a short "how-to" guide we'll send you. Here's the general
idea, though: As the on-the-ground organizer in your state, you'll
need to select the exact location for the rally, and obtain any
necessary permission to use it. If you feel like your location needs
amplified sound for the speakers to be heard, you'll need to line that
up (though the national coordinators can help with any costs). You'll
need to send out announcements to local reporters (we'll provide a
template), and most importantly, follow up with telephone calls to
them. And on the day of the event, you'll need to either speak to the
crowd (we'll provide sample remarks) or arrange for other group
leaders to do so.

That's the gist of it; we hope you can join in!


Andy's comment...

Look Ma! Voter Verified Paper Ballots :bounce:

[BevHarris]

1. They used the word BALLOT

A key litmus test.

- If you buy a house, and you want a contract, but you ask for a paper trail, you might just get the appraisal report. Say what you mean.

- If you buy a car and you want a want a warranty, but you ask for a paper trail, you might just get a bill of sale. Be specific.

- If you buy groceries and you want a receipt, but you ask for the paper trail, you might just get a grocery list.

- If you want a voter verified paper BALLOT, but you advocate for a paper trail, you might just get a receipt with a code that you can take to the Internet to check (the VoteHere crypography solution). Politicians and advocacy groups who use the word "trail" are keeping the door open for something other than a ballot. Close that door.

BALLOT is defined in legal dictionaries. TRAIL is not. Ballot is defined in case law. Trail has no standing in the law. A ballot is the document which is the legal representation of your vote. A trail puts the legal entity of your vote inside the computer.

Good job, Andy. You've been a leader for that terminology, which gets rid of weasel clauses that can result in a loss that looks like a win.

Bev Harris

[I thought so.]

4. Good work for all in this fight.

Could the best strategy be to completely discredit these machines? If that would be possible,could those that have bought them be persuaded to just print paper ballots and use them?
There is not enough time to figure out the nonsense. I read a story about how regulated gambling machines are. What a difference!
I think we need to demand the same. I can't decide whether they wanted to fix the vote or if they just saw an opportunity to rip of the Gov. via the HAVA. I don't know much about computers but what I understand is that voting machines are just sloppy work that would never be discovered.

Once again,thank you Bev and Andy and all the others that are fighting this battle.

[JohnGideon]

15. I'm Sorry But There Are More Important Things Than Playing Word Games

There is NO difference between a 'ballot' and a 'paper trail' if the paper trail is defined in legislation as if it was a ballot.

- If you buy a house, and you want a contract, but you ask for a paper trail, you might just get the appraisal report or you can get the contract that you asked for as long as you describe the paper trail as the contract.

etc. etc.

There are more important things to go to battle over than whether one group calls it a paper trail and another a paper ballot. As long as it is all defined the same; it is the same. No difference. End of story.

This stuff about ballot having legal standing is not correct. Paper trail has legal standing too now that states have used that terminology in their state laws. Remember courts and lawyers don't make the law; legislators do.

Now can we get on to how the hell we are going to ensure every vote is counted as cast in Nov.?

[Andy_Stephenson]

16. Read my sig line!

there is a difference between "Paper Ballot" and "Paper Trail". It appears you are buying into Ms Rudermans stance John. I have talked to Attorneys and Judges and yes there is a difference. I am not going to be hornswaggled by the likes of Ms. Ruderman and her coziness to VoteHere. Hell your even using her stump speech. "ensure every vote is counted as cast in Nov".

"This stuff about ballot having legal standing is not correct." Baloney! Paper trail has no legal standing! Paper trails mean nothing under the law in regards to voting. Paper ballots do! Read my sig line.

[JohnGideon]

27. First Of All, Andy

I was saying this way before I ever met Laura Ruderman. This has nothing to do with her or with your run for SoS. It has to do with the fact that you are making statements that may have been true a year ago but that hold no water any longer.

State laws are being written that state that there will be a voter verified paper trail or paper audit trail. These are now legally accepted terms and they mean exactly the same thing as a ballot because in those same laws they are defined to be the same as a 'ballot'.

Again, we should be working to make sure that our vote is cast as counted (My words and no one elses) and not taking credit for something as stupid as what we are going to call something.

And last, Laura Ruderman has nothing to do with VoteHere. If you stop and talk to her and listen to what she has to say you might know what her stance is.

[Andy_Stephenson]

30. I am well aware of her stance John...

I have it all on video tape.


Paper Ballots not paper trails.

[BevHarris]

21. Your argument makes no sense to me, John

Why make it a two-step when you can have a one-step all along, to get what you want.

buying a house: I want a contract
vs.
buying a house: I want a paper trail and look in section 1c on page 2, where it defines paper trail as a contract.

The second one leaves more room for argument than the first.

The only people I know of who are actually fighting to call it a trail instead of a ballot are people with a VoteHere agenda who know it is politically incorrect to say so.

Otherwise, just say "ballot" and be done with it. Why ask for what you don't want, and depend on politicians to (hopefully) define it your way, after they fight their way through lobbyist, vendors and people who want to do end runs around proper auditing? Why not ask for what you DO want and make the bad guys do the fighting?

Bev Harris

[BevHarris]

24. And one more thing

Legal standing is conveyed through a body of case law. There is a tremendous amount of case law that refers to "ballot" There is no case law pertaining to "trail" that I know of.

[JohnGideon]

28. Bev, My Whole Point Is That It Doesn't Matter What You Call It

as long as it is defined the same you can call them "tramp steamers"
and they will be the same thing. It's the definition and not the words.

Let's truly move onto more important things than this silly argument and someone taking credit for changing the words someone uses. It means nothing in the big picture and the big picture means everything.

[BevHarris]

31. And my whole point is that it DOES matter

By the way, Mischelle Townsend had, probably still has, on the Riverside County web site that their touch screens have a "voter verified paper trail."

She was called upon to explain this, and responded:

- It is voter verified. The voter verifies what's on the screen before pushing "cast vote"

- It is a paper trail. We can print an individual paper record of each vote if we need to.

Bev

[Eloriel]

26. "Ballot" is also important for at least 2 other reasons

1. You talk about "ballot" to voters and it means something different than paper trail. It conveys the idea of, well, a ballot (which are essential relative to votes and getting votes counted) -- as opposed to a receipt or something different which may not be all that important at all. When you do business at an ATM, you get a receipt. You wouldn't, probably, want to do business with a bank whose ATM didn't furnish one. But once you've checked it, you throw it away, probably. One wouldn't do that with a BALLOT.

BALLOTS are meant to stay within the voting process; who knows (or even cares much) what happens to paper receipts? One thing for certain, though, the meaning conveyed by "paper receipts" doesn't usually include electing people, or the right people. Who has ever been elected on paper receipts? No one.

In Georgia (and all other locales currently using Diebold DREs), for example), the claim is that we already HAVE a paper trail. What we don't have is voter-verified paper BALLOTS. What we don't have is any way to recount actual votes. What we don't have is any way to PROVE fraud did or did not take place. (Imagine that: no way at all to prove or disprove election fraud.)

2. In Georgia, we've got the provision that the only legal vote is the electronic vote, which means that even if we had voter-verified paper ballots tomorrow, they still wouldn't count, couldn't be used in a recount, probably couldn't be validly used for spot checks, etc. -- not until that law is changed (which is a second fight to wage). Why set states and other jurisdictions up for this same monkey business? Make them BALLOTS to start with.

[shance]

2. Thank you Andy************

I dont need to tell you (and Bev) how smart, courageous and tenacious you both are.

You guys are the ingredients of the GOOD here in America***

Thanks.

[Andy_Stephenson]

3. ***Blushing***

:hug:

[greatauntoftriplets]

5. And let me tell you....

he can blush!!!!

:loveya:

[Andy_Stephenson]

7. Boy can I

bigtime...you know how redheads are.

[RedEagle]

6. Ever the Stickler for Details

Can we get them to mandate VVPB of ALL voting systems?

We've seen state officials write legislation that calls for VVPB of select voting systems. That one little word is very important.

Can we get them to present this pledge to all current candidates for office like Secretary of State? What if the current office holder signs the pledge but is not voted (relatively speaking) back in office?

I would think that candidates would see this as a prime plumb in their campaign promises.

[Andy_Stephenson]

8. Personallt...I'd like to see all candidates and

office holders value an endorsement of groups as a plum prize.

[KittyWampus]

9. Encouraging.

:Kick:

[redqueen]

10. Wow

I didn't know you were primarily responsible for making sure the distinction between TRAIL and BALLOT was made clear far and wide. I can't even begin to express my gratitude!

:yourock:

[Andy_Stephenson]

11. Yes that was me...even when I was derided over it and told...

there was no difference...I kept at it. I finally had an effect.


check it out at

www.andystephenson.com

[redqueen]

12. Good on ya!

And thank goodness you're so stubborn determined! :D

[Andy_Stephenson]

13. Stubborn

is far more appropriate.

Besides...I like being labeled stubborn cause I am.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andy_Stephenson]

18. Ummmm....

I can show you posts going back oh...2 years where I have ALWAYS called for a paper ballot and not a paper trail!

Nice try though...for your first post.

BTW: No personal agenda...the only agenda I have is to ensure the integrity of our BALLOT.

[Quick n Low]

19. Intriguing!

Wow, posts on DU referring to a paper ballot and you've changed the world for the better.. Thats one heck of a story. Nice try.

Does this mean that since I've been on the Internet far longer than your miniscule 2 years that I, myself, can make claims to fame that hold no truth? If so, I'll need to start my list ASAP.

You do have a personal agenda. Last week it was claiming that a lawsuit that you filed resulted in the resignation of a top voting official in WA State, erroneously I may add. Sadly no one is here to give the REAL story.

Give me a break, what a crowning moment to claim responsiblity for.

Now you're claiming you made such a large impact on the entire nation without mentioning all the people who have made the REAL difference across the nation. The same people who have made this a real issue for the 2004 election.

Luckily I'm able to tell truth from fiction and know what the real stories are.

First post? Post counts are decieving aren't they? :)

We now return you to your previous head swelling conversation.

[Andy_Stephenson]

20. Show me where I made this claim!

"Last week it was claiming that a lawsuit that you filed resulted in the resignation of a top voting official in WA State."

If memory serves me...Bev posted that!

[BevHarris]

23. I posted that. David Elliott took an extended leave

and now is gone. He disgraced himself by overseeing a whole batch of uncertified software. That caused a lawsuit against the secretary of state.

If there is another reason he left, and you know it, then spill it.

Bev

[BevHarris]

22. Even I shrugged when he did that, at first.

Then I realized he was dead-on -- it's important. When I learned more about how legislation and standards are negotiated, I realized that it is imperative to get specific, accurate and keep it simple -- from the very start.

Thanks, Andy.

Bev Harris

[JohnGideon]

14. I Was On The Call This Morning

Andy, I was on the call this morning along with Ellen from VotersUnite. It was kewl listening to Ben Cohen of 'Ben and Jerrys' fame and talking with people from TrueMajority, Common Cause, MoveOn, Verified Voting, and activists from 15 states.

Ellen and I are talking about doing something. We just aren't sure what we will be doing yet. Contact me and I will let you know more. We will also be talking to the CVI-WA group.

If anyone else is interested in working on this you can find more information from any of the above groups.

[Zorra]

25. My most heartfelt thanks to you and Bev and every other BBV activist.

:yourock:

[loudsue]

29. This is awesome! If the media -- both local and national news orgs. -will

step up to the plate on this, as broad-based as this movement will be, we may be able to get a fair election in most places this November. THAT WOULD BE HUGE! People will surely be watching more closely come November.

Before the BBV Patriots took the lead on this issue, the good ole U.S. of A. was about to have another huge election mess. It would have been like 2002 --- across the board mind-boggling results that made no sense, and didn't add up.

There are still some real "hot spots" that will require extra work before November, but those will soon stand out as the OBVIOUS special interest cess pools. And they WILL be called on it.

Bev, Andy, RedEagle, DanSpillane....ALL of you have been so incredibly great in fighting this. I'm soooo grateful for the leadership you have all shown.

O8)Many blessings on you all!! Sending prayers for your continued safety and success!! O8)

:kick: