The life of an American is worth more

[prolesunited]

Poll question: The life of an American is worth more

than the life of a person from another country

[pocket]

1. no, which is why

which is why I can't get very worked up over the whole outsourcing thing.

[Hoping4Change]

6. Well you ought to be concerned with outsourcing.

Outsourcing in fact is jeopardizing worker's rights that have been fought for tooth and nail. Multi-nationals want to crush worker's rights, living wages, benefits etc. and they are doing so be moving jobs to countries that have no unions or history of protecting workers. The solution to promoting better living conditions for other parts of the world are to have trade agreements that demand wage parity and enforce environmental protection standards.

Your philosophy brings everydown rather than lift everyone up.

BTW welcome to DU.:hi:

[pocket]

8. that is certainly something to think about

and thanks :)

[Hoping4Change]

83. Your welcome but there is another important fact to consider.

Real wages in Mexico went down after NAFTA and now with other free trade agreements opening up cheap labour pools in Asia and Central America, jobs are leaving Mexico.

With growing unemployment and decreasing wages more Mexicans cross the border, accept low pay and thus drive down American wages.

[patrice]

2. That depends

upon individual sets of circumstances.

[qazplm]

3. of course it is not

no one would think so...but you know, the same should be said of a loved one's life and a stranger's life, but guess what, human nature being what it is, very few of us think that way.

It's human nature to form groups, starting with family, to neighborhood, and yes, to country...so of course American deaths are going to seem more shocking to us than other deaths, just as the local news in Zimbabwe is likely to be more concerned with tragedy that happens inside that country than outside.

[chiburb]

4. Of course it is Sharon...

If it weren't, then God wouldn't be on "our" side.


;)

[hiphopnation]

5. no

duh

[prolesunited]

7. Hey, somebody else

claimed it was. I was just wondering if others felt the same.

"The love of one’s country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?" -- Pablo Casals

[hiphopnation]

11. i know

of whom you speak. He/she had over 1000 posts. Can't really follow this persons logic and it baffles and disturbs me.

I agree; love should not have borders.

[GiovanniC]

21. Can you point me to that?

Sounds like an interesting discussion.

[MAlibdem]

9. No...BUT

our government has a greater responsibility to protect Americans than those of other countries, so in the frame of reference from which the government opperates, American lives ARE worth more than those of people in other countries.

[Lauren2882]

45. Good point.

Good response

[JohnLocke]

10. Not inherently.

But the American goverments' first responsibilty is to Americans.

[prolesunited]

12. That's not the question

that I asked. But I also think that it is becoming increasingly clear that we are NOT protecting our citizens by wreaking havoc in the world.

[benfranklin1776]

13. No, since all human beings are endowed by their Creator

...with certain inalienable rights, including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I read that somewhere once in a very profound document that changed the course of human history and was supposed to mark the end of concepts such as the divine right of kings and hereditary aristocracy in which the priviliged few had certain basic rights and the rest of the peasantry had whatever rights the king or queen said they did. That should have put an end to the idea that one group of human beings is somehow more worthy than another. So though our nation's adherence to this principle has not been stellar at times throughout our history, to say the least, the principle remains quite valid. Thus human beings everwhere stand equally in worth. The brutal, unjustifiable taking of a life should therefore be mourned. Thus I mourn the beheading of Paul Johnson as an act of savage butchery. I mourn also the lives lost and the savage decapitations that took place when we bombed a residential neighborhood in April of 2003 because we supposedly believed that Saddam Hussein was eating at a restaurant, even though by that time the Iraqi Army had been effectively routed. http://reddingemployment.com/news/apafternoonupdate/past/20030408aptop066.shtml

I believe that every death of a human being diminishes me as I am a part of the human race. Credit to Donne.

[prolesunited]

14. I would like to hear from the people

who replied yes. Perhaps you can convince me with your reasoning. I'll listen.

[eurolefty]

17. Follow the money

How much money is spend protecting American lives?
How much money is spend protecting African lives?
(security, health care etc.)

American lives are worth more. European lives too. The color of your skin also influences the value of your life.
All people are equal but some are more equal than others.

[prolesunited]

19. You have a different way of looking at it

I didn't mean how much was spent. I was talking about intrinsic value. Fresh out of the womb, for example, is an American baby worth as much as say, an Iraqi baby?

"The color of your skin also influences the value of your life."
When you make that statement, is that what YOU think or how many people think?

[eurolefty]

32. values of human lives seem to vary

Fresh out of the womb, for example, is an American baby worth as much as say, an Iraqi baby?

Let's say some soldiers accidentally bombed a wealthy white neighbourhood in America. How many people would be upset?
What if they bombed an American trailer park? French suburb? Iraqi suburb? What if nobody was bombed to death, but just left quietly to die in some remote village, because they did not have access to adequate health care? How many people would be willing to pay more taxes so that last person would have not died? Not many, I think. So that life really did not matter to them, it was not even as valuable as their material possessions.

I think people place different values on different peoples lives, and racism definitely does exist. I do not support it, but it exists. It would be nice if all lives were equally valuable, but they definitely are not.

[prolesunited]

39. I am certainly not blind to the reality

that it exists, I was just wondering how many here among us actually support it.

As far as people dying in remote villages for lack of health care, we don't have to even go that far. A recent study indicated that 18,000 people in the U.S. die annually from lack of appropriate medical care. I'm sure their lives were valuable as well.

[Peak_Oil]

98. is an American baby worth as much as say, an Iraqi baby?

My way of answering that question is that my life is worth more to me than anyone else's life is worth to me. My family's life is worth more to me than anyone else's family's lives are worth to me.

I hold this opinion because I selfishly wish to remain alive.

[rinsd]

33. No offense....

I didn't answer yes, but why bother polling if you are going to make those who disagreed with what you deem to be the incorrect answer on the mat?

[K-W]

15. Arbitrary political borders do demarcate the quality of humans....

No, wait they dont. Who answered yes to this?

[Nazgul35]

16. yes!!!!

Because one American has about the same impact on the earth's resouces as 20 people from the least developed countries....


Or isn't that what you meant?

:evilfrown:

[Killarney]

18. it depends

on the situation and the two people

[0007]

20. A life is a life is a life -

No one is greater or any less than another.

and everybody is better than junior

[Bandit]

22. What is the Price of Life anyway?

:shrug: Tripe

[prolesunited]

25. This thread is relative to today's discussion

For example, is the life of the American beheaded worth more than the Iraqi man killed the other day while trying to apply for a job?

[Amaya]

23. All life is equal

nt

[GiovanniC]

24. Depends on the Country

We're not worth as much as people from Norway, but we're worth more than people from Sri Lanka. Not worth as much as people from Sierra Leone, but worth much more than people from Uraguay. Not worth quite as much as people from Paraguay. Approximately equal in worth to people from Thailand, and we're no where near being worth as much as people from Belgium.

Dammit, looks like I hit the "Sarcastic Lock" key on my computer again.

[Delano]

26. Not in the grand design of the universe, no, but

it is of greater concern to us than it is to foreigners, just as the lives of foreigners are of greater concern to the people of THEIR countries.

When I lived in Japan, if there was a plane crash or a terrorist bombing, the FIRST thing the media wanted to know was whether any JAPANESE were injured/killed/abducted/whatever.

It is a perfectly normal human chauvinism , and even if Americans become so PC as to not practice it, it won't stop the rest of the world from doing so.

Another way of looking at it: If WE don't care more about our own people's well-being, who will?

[nayt]

42. well put

for the record, i voted yes.

[prolesunited]

43. Would love to have you elaborate

Please explain how American lives are more valuable.

[troublemaker]

27. It is proper for a national government to take that view

about its own citizens--who will look out for you if not your own nation? But that doesn't allow great disparity... one American isn't worth 1000 of anybody, for instance.

On an individual level I would hope we all think of abstract human life has having a rough equivalence. It's the Christian thing to think; one person=one soul. All souls are equally precious to God and equally redeemable.

(I'm an atheist but consider myself a Christian for simple ethical purposes)

[number6]

28. not just no, but hell no ....

..
but the bu$h REGIME says yes, only amurikans count ....

[cinci]

31. One American

life is worth more than the rest of the lives in the world combined. My friend is worth more to me than a billion Chinese.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prolesunited]

41. Aside from it being your friend or family member

We are talking in very abstract terms here.

Pick someone at random of any street in the U.S. Is his or her life more valuable than a billion Chinese? If your answer is still yes, I really would be interested in your explanation of how.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tkmorris]

63. No no no

I spoke with the immigrant shooter last night. Definately not this guy.

:evilgrin:

[JohnLocke]

72. Yeah, that's real rational.

:eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. No, but American deaths do get better ratings on American TV networks.

Similarly, I watch the news from France everyday. They seem inordinately preoccupied with French people.

Shocking, isn't it?

[THUNDER HANDS]

30. In America, that is true

Everywhere else, that is false.

[Leprechan29]

35. Depends in whose eyes

If in the eyes of our Gov't, then it had better be, but in a moral sense, no

[morgan2]

36. no but

one of the jobs of the us government is to protect americans, therefor the us government should value american's more highly.

[Deja Q]

37. We're all human. This nationalistic crap has got to stop.

The life of an American could be worth less, thanks to corporate exploitation around the world, not to forget adding everything * has done.

[DS1]

38. Allow me to point out

[0rganism]

44. Which naturally raises the question....

"Are the lives of Earthlings worth as much as those of Mooninites?"

[DS1]

92. *snicker*

and I say to you, Mr. Mooninite, tear down this wall!

[Forkboy]

40. ok,where are the 12 chuckleheads?

come out and play :evilgrin:

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

50. just twelve?

I see more....


so are you siomeone who values the lives of your countryment less?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

46. to whom?

The life of an American should be worth more to the American government than the life of somebody far away. The American government is there to protect AMERICAN interests, not the interests of others overseas.

This is what I've NEVER understood about the people who say we shouldn't have bombed Japan and Germany during WWII. It's the government's RESPONSIBILITY to look after AMERICANS, not enemies. If it costs 100 foreign lives to save the life of ONE American, the US Government has the OBLIGATION to kill the 100 foreigners to save the 1 American. THAT'S IT'S JOB.

Is a foreign life actually worth less than an American life? No. But that's immaterial when talking about what our government does.

[Randers]

55. So you probably think it's GOOD idea

if the US can coerce other countries to send troops to fight wars that we start - for OUR own interests or whims - because it saves AMERICAN lives... or is that different?

[DoNotRefill]

58. many hands make for lighter work.....

if other countries are willing to send troops, that's OK by me.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

48. I'm appalled that so many have voted an Ameircans life is worth LESS..

Its actually somewhat sickening for me to see thiese results.

My countrymans and neigbors life will ALWAYS be worth equal or more than anothers....

[Forkboy]

49. Why?

My countrymans and neigbors life will ALWAYS be worth equal or more than anothers....

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

51. because they are my freinds and neighbors.

So, are you one of these anti-american leftys?

[Forkboy]

54. So why does that make them worth more?

see if you can answer without an insult.

[Forkboy]

62. back to the top

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

52. ..and my fellow citizens..

foreign concept to the left, Im sure.

[Forkboy]

57. spoken like someone whose not on it

foreign concept to the left

[tkmorris]

66. History books are chock FULL

of the names of people who thought that some particular group of people was more worthy than another. Their names drip with the blood of those they thought were lesser than they and theirs. It is not a group of people I would care to share a philosophy with.

[prolesunited]

53. Who said they were worth LESS?

Can't they be of equal value?

I really don't think you've explained fully why they are worth more. Give me a list of rational reasons, not emotional rhetoric.

Do you think I'm anti-American because I don't think I have any claim to superiority by accident of birth and geography?

[Forkboy]

59. kick

[Catherine Vincent]

60. Of course not.

No one life is more important than the other, no matter where you're from. I know folks like the queen and king of England (and other monarchies around the world) may think their blood is better than others but that is not the case. They shit in a damn toilet just like everybody else and get sick and die just like everyone else.

[lostnfound]

61. Bet a poll of the Reps would tell a different story...

is that the root cause?

[genius]

64. So far, there are 17 sick people voting in the poll.

[Forkboy]

65. Easy now,they might call you names

like "anti-american leftys?" :D

[tkmorris]

67. Who cares

Bush and his scaly little minions could nuke the whole planet back to the Stone Age, killing billions in the process, but as long as an American flag flag flew over the rubble these clowns would stand and sing "God Bless America" to the corpses.

[Forkboy]

69. Not I

The only thing that insults me is uncreative insults :)

[thebigmansentme]

70. of course

life of an american is more valuable to me than a life of a foreigner, no doubt.

before hating begins - in retrospective - i am sure all of you have a circle of friends. and i am sure that the life of a friend is more valuable to you than a life of some stranger. it's only natural. and if you are going to argue otherwise you are a very strange fellow and i bet you don't have that many friends.

there was a philosopher who said - you can not love another until you love yourself. i think it applies to nationalities as well. there is nothing wrong with being patriotic.

[Kinkistyle]

82. Hmmm.... interesting. How about your dog or a foreigner?

Which is more valuable: your pet dog/cat/potbelly pig or some foreigner? ;)

[Misunderestimator]

85. Odd perspective.... so because of the accident of birth

that your friends and family were born American, they are better than others....? My friends' deaths would affect me much worse than a stranger... it doesn't mean that their lives are more important. I also have dear friends IN other countries, and their deaths would also affect me more than an anonymous stranger.

Is an American you've never met and know nothing about more important to you than a friend who is not American? That is really the question. We're talking national bigotry.... we're not talking about our friends. Or are you so "patriotic" that you only make friends of Americans?

[Solly Mack]

68. *sniff* *sniff* What's that smell? *sniff* *sniff*

Albeit faint, I detect a whiff of arrogance, with a not so subtle hint of elitism.
The after-taste is pure fear.

I voted No. Being born in America in no way makes my life worth more than those born in other countries.

To me, that's no different than saying whites are worth more, straights are worth more, christians are worth more, or males are worth more

in order for an American life to be worth more, somebody elses life has to be devalued...and to devalue the life of another, you have to dehumanize them as well.

[thebigmansentme]

71. well

in order for an American life to be worth more, somebody elses life has to be devalued...and to devalue the life of another, you have to dehumanize them as well.

as somebody said before we tend to form groups and societies based on our common denominators and experiences that we care about. it's easy to philosophize in terms of nationalities and countries. but i bet you would value the life of your personal friend over a life of some stranger. now imagine, gasp, that some people care about lives of their fellow americans that they can emphasize with over the life of a foreigner they know and understand nothing about. and it's not a matter of right or wrong either, it's just human. it's just how it works.

[Solly Mack]

73. You overlook the fact that the question wasn't

if you value your family and friends over people you don't know...

the question posed is...simply by being born in america, is your life worth more than those born in other countries.


I assure you, nature doesn't give a damn where you were born. Nature doesn't give a rat's ass about who is and who isn't an american.

You seem to be assuming that people born in other countries are somehow a different species...that they don't feel...that they don't love...that they don't experience death and pain the same as Americans. Which, if you'll pardon me saying, is a crock of shit. Are they human? Then they share a common bond with you that no nationality can ever change.

Don't confuse your love of your family and friends with what the question asked.

And if Americans choose to be willfully ignorant of other people simply because those people weren't born in America...well, willful ignorance is it's own reward.

Btw, they hide knowledge about other countries in these things called books. You can also broaden your thinking through travel. And as America is a country of immigrants, you might want to get to know a few.

Cia

[thebigmansentme]

74. it's

not a matter of being born in america. it's a matter of being of the same culture, same language. someone you can understand and relate to. whether you like it or not nationalism is still very strong in this world. each country has an identity, and yes, indeed, each country is like a family, or a circle of friends. there can be plenty of exceptions, but on the large people respect the loyalty to their family, to their friends, and to their country, and for great many people it amounts basically to the same thing.

but that is really beside the point, isn't it? what we really have to work on, and to strive towards to, is that WE'LL NEVER HAVE TO FACE THAT CHOICE. it's redundunt to try to eradicate our loyalty to our fellow countryman and our land, it's not possible, but we have to preserve our humanity and ability to compromize so that WE NEVER HAVE TO MAKE THAT CHOICE BETWEEN THE LIFE OF SOMEONE WE CARE ABOUT A LIFE OF SOME STRANGER.

nome sane?

[Solly Mack]

75. No. That wasn't the question

And you're chasing ghost if you attempt to turn the question into a case of "..to try to eradicate our loyalty to our fellow countryman"...for such a sentiment was not expressed , so it does not exist....except in your mind.

Nationalism was very popular with some of world's worst tyrants...and if some people want to embrace it..well, again...willfull ignorance is it's own reward.

[thebigmansentme]

77. actually

that is the question. as simple as it can be presented here - do you value the life of your countryman over the life of a foreigner, all other aspects being equal that is. if you had your back to the wall and you absolutely had to make a choice, who would you choose to die? that is a question of loyalty isn't it?

the point i am trying to make though is that we, as humans, and as countries, have to work towards solutions where we don't have to make those choices. and yes, sometimes you have to correct you friend's actions if you think your friend (or your country) is doing the wrong thing, but if it is a simple question of life and death of course i would protect an american before anybody else, i don't understand what the problem is.

[Solly Mack]

78. I know a lot of "foreigners" but I don't know you, and by your logic

the people I know and care about, their life would be more important to me than say, yours, for example.



Don't assume the shared label of American means you have more in common with me than the people I know from other countries. Because it does not...which is why your argument falls apart. Well, that and it's obvious you don't understand the nuances of the original question.

I wasn't raised to devalue others simply because they weren't "like me". I find it sad that you were...

[thebigmansentme]

79. yeah

obviously if you have friends from other countires their lives and wellbeing mean more to you than somebody unknown from your country of origin. that goes without question.

if we get back to the original topic though, which is 'is life of an american more valuable than a life of somebody else', as i said before, if all other things are held equal, if i am not personally connected to the whatever situation there is, of course i am going to support the group/country i belong to, as long as there is no obvious injustice.

this argument is not going anywhere though, unless you apply it to the real world situations where americans are involved, then we can get some real debate going.

[Solly Mack]

80. Then let me be clear about a real world situation

No American life that has been murdered in this bullshit war on terror because of the arrogance of that stupid motherfucker in the whitehouse is worth more to me than any Iraqi life that has been murdered because of that same said stupid motherfucker's arrogance.




I value all the lives lost the same. Is such a simple concept...it's called humanity. Embrace it. Become a part of it.

And spare me the assumption that I don't know anyone who died in Iraq. My husband served in Iraq. I knew many that died. And their blood is on Shrub's hands. But just because I knew them and cared about them doesn't mean their life was more valuable than the life of an Iraqi.

I trust I made myself clear.

[MontecitoDem]

89. that's not the question of this poll,

so it's not what people were answering. Perhaps you should start your own poll with this question and see if the results differ?

[Dark]

76. Worth more to whom?

[prolesunited]

81. Just on a general, abstract level

Most people seemed to understand the question. :shrug:

[Lestat]

84. The life of an American is worth more than...

those savages in Saudi Arabia and any other terrorists around the world.

[Misunderestimator]

86. So, the life of a murderer/rapist in America...

of which there are sadly, MANY... is more valuable to you than an innocent mother who's never done anything but provide for her family in Saudi Arabia?

The question wasn't about whether a terrorist's life was more valuable.... but just a fair comparison in general if any American was more valuable than any non-American.

[Lestat]

87. I never said everyone in SA...

I meant the savages, the terrorists.

[Misunderestimator]

88. And SA savages are no worse than US savages...

But that was not the original question here... no one asked you to put yourself in the shoes of the president. It's a bit more abstract than that, and basic.

NO .... for me, an Arab life has no more nor less value than mine.

[Lestat]

90. I put myself in those shoes.

And you're right, the savages here are no worse than the SA savages. But...I must say that at least we don't hold anyone hostage and cut off their heads to make demands and post pictures everywhere.

[prolesunited]

91. Tell me again that Americans aren't capable

of being brutal savages:

David Berkowitz:
Calling himself the Son of Sam, this serial killer terrorized New York City in the late 1970s. What is he doing now and will he ever get paroled?

Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka:
The Ken and Barbie of murder and mayhem. Now updated to include current events and a book reveiw of The Unknown Darkness.

Boston Strangler:
Albert De Salvo, serial killer and rapist who terrorized Boston women. Now with regular updates of current events.

Ted Bundy:
The most frightening of serial killers: a handsome, educated psychopath who stalks and murders young college women. Who could have guessed at the evil in his soul? The new and expanded feature story.

Jeffrey Dahmer:
A young man from a good family deviates into necrophilia and cannibalism, then lures boys to his apartment to be murdered and maimed.

Albert Fish:
This gentle-looking grandfather cleverly lured children to their death, then devised recipes to eat them. This cannibal model for Hannibal Lector is a study in criminal psychology

John Wayne Gacy:
"Respectable" Chicago-area businessman hires young men to work in his contracting company, then rapes and murders scores of them, burying their bodies on his properties.

Eddie Gein:
Ghoulish model for Psycho and Buffalo Bill.

Kitty Genovese:
"A Cry in the Night," the famous murder of a lovely young woman in New York City. Thirty-seven people witnessed it and did not want to get involved. Detective Mark Gado examines the mind set of these silent witnesses and the serial murderer responsible for Kitty's death.

Green River Murders:
Scores of women murdered in the Seattle area results in the longest running homicide investigation in U.S. history. Finally DNA evidence points the finger at Gary Leon Ridgway as the killer

Jack the Ripper:
A penetrating analysis of the many suspects and theories surrounding this legendary serial killer.

Pedro Lopez:
"The Monster of the Andes" murdered some 300 or more little girls as he roamed the poor neighborhoods of Ecuador, Colombia and Peru. He boasts now that he is the "Man of the Century," that no one will ever forget.

Charles Manson:
Chilling monster made followers kill on command. The additional chapter "Where Are They Now?" is further updated to include Krenwinkles parole denial and new photos.

Timothy McVeigh:
The man responsible for the most shocking terrorist attack within America - the Oklahoma City bombing.

Necrophiles:
Author Katherine Ramsland examines the phenomenon of necrophilia and what causes some people to become sexually obsessed with the dead.

The Night Stalker:
Sadistic, psychopathic monster terrifies California suburbs, murdering, raping & brutalizing his victims. New chapters on his trial and his love for Satan.

Anatoly Onoprienko:
Half-mad serial murderer roamed from place to place killing families and individuals and stealing their belongings, believing he was commanded by God. He ranks as one of Europe's worst murderers.

Psychic Detectives:
Although skeptics decry the use of psychics, police departments have been calling on them for more than a century when all else fails.

Angel Resendez:
The Railroad Killer - updated to include his trial and sentencing.

Gary Leon Ridgway :
Scores of women murdered in the Seattle area results in the longest running homicide investigation in U.S. history. Finally DNA evidence points the finger at Gary Leon Ridgway as the Green River killer

The Rostov Ripper:
Exhausting police work finally uncovers the sexual predator who killed scores of young people.

Ann Rule:
Author Katherine Ramsland interviews this queen of the true-crime book genre about her beginnings as a writer, her personal life and some of her most fascinating cases.

Dr. Harold Shipman:
The seemingly pleasant British family doctor who killed more than 200 of his patients, making him perhaps the most prolific serial killer in history. Shipman suicides in his cell.

Charles Sobraj:
The tale of the "Serpent," the con man, jewel thief, drug dealer and killer of some 20 unsuspecting tourists as he moved through Europe, Thailand, Nepal and India, creating a murderous Manson-like family cult. He just signed a $15 million deal for his life story.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/index.html

[Misunderestimator]

96. Good list.... thanks!

And good poll too, by the way. :)

[Lestat]

97. Reread what I said.

"I must say that at least we don't hold anyone hostage and cut off their heads to make demands and post pictures everywhere."

It was never about whether or not we have savages here. How many of those victims of the murderers you have listed held people hostage for outrageous demands and cut their heads off?

I thought so.

[sffreeways]

99. We don't ?

Well, we may not cut off their heads but we have no problem apparently with sexually asssaulting them, brutally beating them, killing them and packing them in ice, taking their pictures, threating them with said pictures that are then posted all over the internet.

A life is a life.

[ulysses]

111. SFF!

:hi: Good to see you around!

[Misunderestimator]

93. So cutting off a few heads and making demands....

is worse to you than bombing thousands of innocents... not to me. Murder is murder... their murderers are no worse than our murderers.

But once again.... THAT is not the question of this thread.

[Lestat]

94. I don't care if it was the original question.

I'll put my ideas here.

[Misunderestimator]

95. Okee doke. Put em where you like. n/t

[Ms. Clio]

100. What about holding people hostage in prison hellholes

beating them to death, and then posting those pictures everywhere?


I think people who did that would be FUCKING SAVAGES.

[Lestat]

101. Chill out. Geez.

I'm just pissed at what happened yesterday. You all don't need to jump on my fucking back for being pissed. :grr:

[Ms. Clio]

102. I'm pissed, too. I've been pissed since 12/12/2000

And what happened yesterday doesn't change that.

[Lestat]

103. You and me both.

I'm just pissed off at the whole world right now, with all the fighting and hate.

I don't know. If I seem kinda ignorant today, that's why.

[Ms. Clio]

104. Everything does look particularly bleak and ugly at the moment

We just have to hang on until November. I do think the bastards are going down--if we have an honest election.

[Lestat]

105. I agree.

But I doubt the election will be honest. :grr:

[Forkboy]

106. Hang in there Lestat

they're banking on you giving in to that anger and supporting their bs.Use it to beat them instead :)

[Lestat]

107. Haha!

I will. :) They deserve a good beating.

[Tyler Durden]

108. Remember both the Torah AND the Q'ran:

To paraphrase:

"He who saves one life saves the world entire."

You have a right to be upset, but the moment we start labeling anyone a monster, we devalue all around them to the point where finally creating a glass crater a mile in diameter with their former location at the center becomes a rational act.

"There are no monsters." my mother, attempting to usuage my night terrors as a child.

[prolesunited]

109. Excellent point!

This savagery is being broadcast 24-7 in an attempt to provoke that sort of response. They are counting on normally rational people to give into their baser instincts and join in their bloodlust.

That is the point of this thread. I really believe all human life is sacred and the brutal murder of one diminishes us all. I am no less or more outraged by the death of Johnson than I am by the death of the prisoners in Abu Ghirab or Afghanistan.

Many of those people were rounded up in sweeps through cities. Why do you think they let so many go? They were only guilty of being a male within a certain age group.

To view all the people who live in the ME as our enemy or potential threat will do nothing to bring us closer to peace. By viewing them as less than human, less than us only makes it easier to kill them and assuages our guilt when we bomb their neighborhoods. So many innocent lives — on both sides — have been lost.

Please don't let the fear and hatred consume you. We must rise above it. It is our only hope for peace, for the future.