I see a hooded man holding a machine gun who looks very white

[mopaul]

in the video claiming to be the man who beheaded johnson i see a man with a hood on his head, or a ski mask, how in the hell are we so sure it's al qaeda and who they say it is? how do they know the names of these invisible men on the other side of the world in masks?

how?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

2. I don't know much about holding guns, but besides the

whiteness of this guy, he seems to hold his rifle differently than other pictures I have seen of terrorists and how they hold their weapons. Anyone in the military care to comment?

[Exgeneral]

3. well, the server for that site is based in TEXAS

so they must be friends of the Texas Jihad...............

[qazplm]

8. guys

evil does exist outside of DC.

There are evil people all over the world, they were there before Bush and will be there after Bush.

EVERYTHING isnt a conspiracy by Bush. This poor guy was killed by evil fundamentalist whackos in SA.

Maybe they had an ounce of humanity and killed him before beheading him, thus explaining the lack of blood everywhere.

Maybe it happened days ago and not today like they said.

I dunno, but it happened, and the likeliest explanation is not conspiracy but pure plain evil human act.

[demodewd]

10. why so certain?

How can you be so certain who did this?

[qazplm]

13. Occam's Razor

makes it much more likely to be a few whackos.

[Cheswick2.0]

34. Some guy comes up with a theory called Occam's Razor, so it must be true?

There for you get to insult people for talking about things you don't think they should talk about?
Sucks when you don't run the world doesn't it?

[alittlelark]

37. 'Occam's Razor' also proves MIHOP or LIHOP

utilize the theory wisely.

[TomNickell]

40. Nonsense. /nt

[alittlelark]

44. You can either believe that

1) The most expensively armed, best prepared country in the world....which spends trillions on all forms of defense and communications had a simultaneous break-down on 9-11 ie - communications,military, pentagon, AF 1, FAA, Airport Security, CIA, FBI.................
or
2) a few well placed individuals let it happen or made it happen



Occam's Razor will concur with only one of those theories

[TomNickell]

60. Nonsense. /nt

[Forkboy]

61. well,that settles it

Who can argue with the logic displayed?

[TomNickell]

65. Yes, but not the one you think......

<<The most expensively armed, best prepared country in the world....which spends trillions on all forms of defense and communications had a simultaneous break-down on 9-11 ie - communications,military, pentagon, AF 1, FAA, Airport Security, CIA, FBI.................>>

is prone to spectacular failures. It's a characteristic of complex systems.

<<2) a few well placed individuals let it happen or made it happen>>

But that is almost impossible. Leadership, believe it or not, has limited power over complex bureaucracies. Especially when the project has no ideological or socially acceptable justification.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

72. 2 cents.

I know the US budgets trillions for defense. And that would most likely make the defense systems "complex."

However, I don't believe for a second that a large fraction of those trillions end up in end systems but in someone's pocket.

Occam's Razor needs a variable. But then it wouldn't be Occam's Razor anymore, would it?

[TomNickell]

75. Ordinary Corruption!

A refreshing break from conspiracist lunacy.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

77. If ever there was a set function...

... it's corruption.

[alittlelark]

86. ALL at the same time

puh-lease.....

[JohnLocke]

78. We weren't well prepared in the least.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomNickell]

30. Nobody is certain.

It is just that the implication of the Conspiracy Hobbyists in raising these questions--that Bush somehow is actually behind the beheadings--makes very little sense. And there is no evidence pointing in that direction.

Middle Eastern Wackos is the straightforward explanation. You can't prove anything else by examining the videotape.

If the fake is so clumsy that there are obvious clues implicating Bush, it is probably not done by the CIA.

[truthseeker1]

46. Unless the CIA wants to make Bush look bad

"If the fake is so clumsy that there are obvious clues implicating Bush, it is probably not done by the CIA."

Um, hello, there *is* a war going on within DC right now. WH/PNAC vs. CIA/STATE

[TomNickell]

67. Well, yeah, but this is a rather clumsy approach.

Sure, many things are -conceivable- here. The Middle East is a complex messy place with lots groups with lots of agendas. The CIA wouldn't do this, but I can imagine some group somehow connected.

But we aren't going to figure much out by micro-analyzing a grisly video downloaded from the internet.

There are nasty guys who claim to have done this deed. Probably they are telling the truth. I don't see how much changes if they aren't.

[Hoping4Change]

24. You are filling in the blanks. There is no proof of who did this,

there are only claims. One of the things we know for sure is that Bush is capable of perpetrating the most outrageous lies, committing the most outrageous offenses to further his goals or for revenge.

Its criminal that any one gives him the benefit of doubt.

[TomNickell]

39. Bush is in Washington, or Texas.

Bush may be capable of many things. But the accusation is not -really- against him. Somebody with white arms in Saudi Arabia did this deed.

So the accusation is, presumably, against the CIA or FBI or the military.

I can conceive of scenarios where this might be possible, but there needs to be some evidence. Here I can see no plausible motive and certainly no evidence.

These threads are aggravating not because they accuse Bush, but because they are so damned mindless.

Catastrophe happens. Bush did it. Look carefully at all the pictures, some anomaly can always be found. Bush did it!

Bad guy is wearing a Bush '04 pin and has a cowboy had under his turban. The CIA is that clumsy all the time. Bush did it!

There is no apparent motive. Quite the opposite. Still, Bush did it.

Middle Eastern Loonies do this stuff all the time. Still, Bush did it.

Evidence? Don't need no stinkin' evidence. Bush did it.

[Hoping4Change]

48. I'm not sure what you're getting at. The person I responded to

is letting Bush off the hook with no evidence. I claim nothing until I see solid evidence.

Are you saying that Bush who has sent 900 Americans troops to their deaths not to mentions thousands of civilians that he has any qualms about resorting to political expediency?

[TomNickell]

68. But this isn't politically expedient!

1. I wouldn't put much past Mr. Bush. In this case, however, I don't see any advantage to Mr. Bush in doing such a deed. More horror on the US TVs, more fear and chaos in the M. East, more western workers leaving the area, eventually higher oil prices. Just doesn't make sense.

2. Who actually did this? Bush is in DC, or Texas, remember? CIA cut off the guys head and made the video? And were so dumb they left their lily white arms showing and put the guy in an Abu Graib regulation orange suit? Just Doesn't Make Sense.

3. If you don't want to sound like a Braying Jackass, you need actual evidence before making wildly speculative accusatons. Middle Eastern nasties have claimed to have done this deed. Saudi police have killed one of them. Absent some actual evidence, that's pretty much how the matter rests.

[Hoping4Change]

87. Where am I making accusations. Please enlighten me.

You are the one who is drawing conclusions with no evidence other than they can't be so dumb. Well just how brilliant were they to contravene the Geneva Conventions and to top that off allow photos of prisoner abuse?

For that matter where is there even a hint of mediocre intelligence in the plans for the postwar period. In fact they are so utterly stupid and dumb that they made no plans, Iraqis were going to be flinging petals.

This administration is dumb. Evilly dumb. How stupid is it that they outed Plame and destroyed a cover operation that took years to develop?

[TruthIsAll]

88. Hey, Tom. As usual, you are in denial. BushCo=fear+chaos+oil gouging

You say:
1. I wouldn't put much past Mr. Bush. In this case, however, I don't see any advantage to Mr. Bush in doing such a deed. More horror on the US TVs, more fear and chaos in the M. East, more western workers leaving the area, eventually higher oil prices. Just doesn't make sense.

I say: And that is just why Bush has an advantage: More fear and chaos, higher oil prices. Makes sense to me.

You say:
2. Who actually did this? Bush is in DC, or Texas, remember? CIA cut off the guys head and made the video? And were so dumb they left their lily white arms showing and put the guy in an Abu Graib regulation orange suit? Just Doesn't Make Sense.

I say: Nothing they do makes sense. Except to them.


You say:
3. If you don't want to sound like a Braying Jackass, you need actual evidence before making wildly speculative accusatons. Middle Eastern nasties have claimed to have done this deed. Saudi police have killed one of them. Absent some actual evidence, that's pretty much how the matter rests.

I say: We have seen daily evidence daily of their lies and crimes.
If one does not speculate or think the worst, one is brain-dead.
That is what BushCo has done to us. They lie about everything. They are capable of anything. Why should we assume that they will change their MO?

[rinsd]

4. Iraqis are only brown skinned?

Or maybe its the Western mannerism or maybe its the white plastic walmart chair...oh that's right, no chair this time....but that bed looks like its from a Best Western to me

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

[TomNickell]

31. I have one of those chairs.

And the CIA has brown makeup. And long sleeve shirts.

[tnlefty]

5. Didn't know there is a video. I noticed right away from the stills that

these people were dressed in white, not the Halloween costumes worn by Nick Berg's killers. And they seemed amazing clean.

I'm rapidly getting to the point that I don't know who/what to believe anymore. Just tired of being jerked around by bunch of jerkoffs who don't want to be straight about much of anything....not even the rainfall prior to someone falling off of a mountain bike!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

6. This Thread Ain't Nuthin' But Shit

Surprise, surprise, surprise.

DTH

[demodewd]

7. first thing

That's the first thing I noticed too. And he pulled at his face mask like it was chafing and maybe he was new at wearing one.

[neuvocat]

9. Why did this prisoner have an orange jumpsuit?

Since when do terrorists issue standard prison uniforms?

[qazplm]

18. because

in the ME, red/orange is the color of a condemned man.

[lazarus]

23. I've heard this several times lately

but I don't recall ever seeing an orange jumpsuit on a Western hostage before these two beheadings.

Daniel Pearl wasn't wearing one, was he?

[Tinoire]

33. I don't suppose you have a link handy to back that up? And a few links

to make the miraculous jump from the color orange to US-style orange jumpsuits?

This smacks of more of the smoke and mirrors Rumsfeld had promised when the war started.

[DemBones DemBones]

50. Since when? Says who? If you're going to make an

assertion about the MidEast, you ought to be able to back it up.

[TomNickell]

71. They were on sale at the Baghdad Walmart.

$3.35 each or $30 for a dozen.

Maybe ME prostitutes wear orange. Maybe ME gays wear orange. And this is a special humiliation. Maybe Iraqi prisoners wore orange. Maybe orange is Bin Laden's favorite color.

Somebody knows. Not us.

[Forkboy]

73. "Somebody knows. Not us."

Good thing there are people asking questions.

[Must_B_Free]

53. interesting that this info about orange in the ME only comes out today

and not during the last beheading. As if the weaknesses of the last beheading were studieds and refined for this repeat performance.

[fishnfla]

11. I see a man's life wasted. I see the tears of his son

I see a jackel howling over the carrion.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jeff30997]

15. Fucking savages indeed!!!

I agree with you on this !

[JohnnyFianna1]

16. The U.S. Military is not a group of Savages!!!

[jeff30997]

17. The ones at Abu Ghraib are .

[qazplm]

19. no

the ones who committed atrocities at Abu Gharib might be considered as such, not every single soldier there.

[physioex]

20. No it only starts there....

And ends at Rummies desk. But the buck really stops at Shrubs desk come election time...

[Ouabache]

85. but they weren't until Bush put them there as their CIC

although now there are the stories that there are 20 to 30 prisons around the world just like Abu Gharib. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld would be responsible for what is happening in them too. Chain of command and all, ya know.

[Cheswick2.0]

35. Some of them are

I would guess that there are as many savage americans as savage people from any other country.

[keithyboy]

57. What then do you call them?

I just want to know.

[pocket]

21. got a link to the picture?

I've only seen ones with the body alone in it.

[number6]

22. I see a hooded man holding a machine gun who looks very white

yea those lilly white arms, I noticed that too ...

[Lizz612]

25. Could I get a link to that?

I haven't seen it yet, but my first thought is that the man could be very close to the flash. That might make his skin appear whitter than it is. But really does the skin color matter? I don't see how that matters, people with white skin can be terrorists too.

[mopaul]

26. here is his pic...not the video

how can they tell WHO the hell it is?

[tnlefty]

27. This isn't one of the stills that I saw. This is the first that I've seen

of anyone dressed in black. The others were in clean, white clothing, but no faces were showing in those photos.

I don't know how one is supposed to be able to tell who that is or anyone else with the face and/or head covered.

[number6]

28. ! EXACTLY !

"people with white skin can be terrorists too."

[TomNickell]

29. Well, I see...

just another damn stupid conspiracy hobbyist post.

Do you -ever- tire of this?

To answer your questions:

1. We -don't- know for sure it is Al Qaeda. But, at this point 'Al Qaeda' may not mean much more than 'Middle Eastern Muslim Terrorist', so 'Al Qaeda' is as good a name as any.

2. I imagine they are guessing about the names. Don't care enough about it to figure out what the evidence is. 'They' could be completely wrong. So What?

Now, -your- question:

What possible motive would 'Bush' have for beheading a truck driver in such a clumsy way that the deception was evident to every one watching?

And don't they have long-sleeve shirts or brown makeup at the CIA?

[Cheswick2.0]

32. I must have missed the reference to the CIA in Mopauls post

What I don't understand is you need to control what other people talk about. No one is seeking you out and insulting you. You are freely coming to this thread and instead of giving your opinion, you attack and dismiss. Why? Why take this so personally. People are speculating. Why does that bother you so much? What does it have to do with you?

[TomNickell]

43. Say anything you want...

But foolish talk deserves criticism.

What's the point of this speculation? Most people are sickened by these pictures.

What's the point of speculating about tragedy when there is no substantial information?

I promise you, if Bush were behind this, there would be no clues in the video for MoPaul to detect.

[truthseeker1]

47. You're kidding, right?

"I promise you, if Bush were behind this, there would be no clues in the video for MoPaul to detect."

Because Bush is so competent?? Please...give me a break.
If the CIA wanted to make it look like Bush was behind this, they'd leave behind plenty of clues. And oh yeah, that's right, the CIA has pretty much declared war against Bush.

[Tinoire]

51. Why? Because you think Bush is that smart?

Only cretins like the ones in charge expect people not to notice glaring orange jumpsuits the likes of which I highly doubt were ever seen in Arabic countries except in a Hollywood movies.

Only cretins like the Bushistas and their supporters think they're fooling anyone with this war on terra. There's no terror except when approval rates are slumping or pictures of children being raped by US soldiers are about to flood the internet.

Don't you find it exceedingly strange that AGAIN there's all this hoopla over a beheaded American, in an orange jump-suit, head severed with again not much blood, distributed by "Islamic" web-sites in the US.

Why was there not one word about as Kenneth Scroggs? He was killed last week too but shh... almost not a word... And nary a word on Robert Jacobs, killed the same week by the same group.

It's about time more people started 'speculating' instead of meekly believing all the swill tossed at us by a very carefully controlled media.


Scroggs was the third Westerner killed in the kingdom in a week. Several Islamic Web sites Saturday carried links to a videotape – also purportedly from al Qaeda – that claims to show the killing of American Robert Jacobs, who was shot at his Riyadh home Tuesday.

In the kidnapping claim, the al Qaeda statement showed a passport-size photo of a brown-haired man and a Lockheed Martin business card bearing the name Paul M. Johnson. It said he was born in 1955.

[merh]

63. How does Drudge get these so quickly all of the time? (eom)

[Tinoire]

64. Drudge feeds of tips...

If I had any stories I needed pushed, he'd be one of the first persons I'd "tip off". Too bad we don't have a Left wing version of Drudge working off of tips. Imagine what a stir the torture photos would have made there!

[merh]

70. Well okay, the tip part I understand, but the internet links and . . .

and constant access to internet links where he gets his sh**, I don't. If you or I were frequenting "known al quaida" internet sources, don't you think Uncle Ashy and his band of unknown would be serving us with Patriot Act subpoenas and freezing our bank accounts?

[Tinoire]

79. I don't think he frequents those sites any more than you or I do

The Bushistas just send them to him & use him as a propagandist after they've posted whatever information they need disseminated as having been posted on (cough) "Al-Qaeda" Web-sites.

The site that released the video to this beheading was, I believe, in Texas which smells pretty orchestrated to me.

You're so right about your last point- if we went anywhere near a real terrorist or terrorist-sympathizing site; we'd be hounded in a flash.

[merh]

82. thanks for the info - the propaganda machine makes me sick!

:puke:

[TomNickell]

74. What' strange?

<<Don't you find it exceedingly strange that AGAIN there's all this hoopla over a beheaded American, in an orange jump-suit, head severed with again not much blood, distributed by "Islamic" web-sites in the US. >>

No, not really. It's another sensational murder. The media loves this stuff.

What is your alternate hypothesis?

'Bush' dresses American truck drivers in orange suits and cuts off their heads and posts the film on Islamist web sites? Why would he want to do that?

[TruthIsAll]

89. It would be interesting to do a search of Nickell's posts.

He only posts to bash those of us who question official propaganda.

He never questions govt. malfeasance. He only responds by questioning the motives of those of us who do.

It's almost like he sits at the keyboard waiting to pounce.

[Mike Niendorff]

52. logical fallacy also deserves criticism.

To wit:

> I promise you, if Bush were behind this, there would be
> no clues in the video for MoPaul to detect.

So, in Tom Nickell's world, guilt cannot be proven unless there is absolutely no evidence of guilt. But, of course, when there is no evidence of guilt, then guilt cannot be proven either. Thus, guilt can *never* be proven, no matter what the evidence actually is. And, should anyone doubt this, Tom Nickell will be there, ready to label you a "conspiracy theorist" if you insist on looking at the evidence before drawing conclusions.

And, for the record: I have seen no compelling evidence one way or another as to who committed this barbaric act. I know what my government and media have told me, and that may be the truth. How the hell would I know? I also know that there are those who are suspicious that this may not be the whole truth. They may be right, too. Again: how the hell would I know?

At this time, I simply have no way of knowing who is right. And if you were honest, you'd admit that you don't either, Tom. All any of us really know at this point is what we've been told. And, with all due respect, Official Stories just haven't been too reliable lately (although that, in and of itself, proves nothing). Anyway, let's try to keep some sense of perspective here while people try to hash out the implications of what little evidence we actually have. Ok? Unless, of course, your sole role on this board is to scream "conspiracy theorist!" at people. Oh, wait ...


MDN

[Forkboy]

45. Well,I see

just another damn stupid anti-conspiracy hobbyist post.

Do you -ever- tire of this?

[Tinoire]

36. Well Mo... One is amazed

One is amazed at all these monstrosities allegedly posted on Islamic web-sites (with never any links btw) hosted in the good old US of A. Orange jumpsuits. Strange accents. Light-skinned men so eager to support Bush's propaganda that the Muslims are the most evil people on earth despite the little-discussed stories of all the hostages they've released (or 'allowed' to escape).

I am waiting to view this video. I have already heard that the video seems professionally spliced and edited. "The video of Johnson was shot in the usual poor quality with bad lighting, but the inserts of someone calling themselves al-Moqrin were top-notch. Good lighting with no shadows, better camera work, nice backdrop, and quality CG work in arabic and english. Looked like it had been done in a studio somewhere and edited into the shots of the hostage. I'm betting al-Moqrin was nowhere near Johnson."

I noticed this different lighting in the few pictures I've seen so far.

Very curious.

Just like passports that don't burn and an unending supply of Korans that end up in the oddest of places.

[Cheswick2.0]

38. Why do you hate america, Conspiracy hobbiest?

Please report to the state for re-education. Brown shirts will be issued at your graduation.

[Tinoire]

42. Lol

:hi:

I hate America so much that this morning I decided DU was too powerful a tool to leave in the hands of the neo-liberals ;) Thanks for being the first reply since my return.

[TomNickell]

41. Actually, I think he is wearing a cowboy hat under his hood.

And isn't that a Bush/Cheney '04 pin?

[nose pin]

49. One of Saddam's generals (don't remember his name)

And I believe he is still at large, and suspected of orchestrating much of the resistance going on in Iraq, is a redhead. Do you remember seeing him on the news many times? He looks almost Irish.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

55. As an Irishman let me just say

I did steal your bike :D

[madrchsod]

58. yes blame the irish on riverdance!!

that mike guy was a southside irish from chicago...

[nose pin]

59. Riverdance?

I don't think there's any question about THAT one...

[skooooo]

56. What does skin color have to do with anything???

Some people of Arab decent are rather fair skinned. What's so hard to understand about that?

[DulceDecorum]

81. Arabs don't tan or freckle in that desert sun?

What kind of sunscreen lotion are they using?

[skooooo]

91. you're joking, right?

[merh]

62. I have a question. Do Middle Easterners or Muslim extremist or whatever

they are supposed to be flip people off? It looks to be that the man in the black hood holding the weapon is flipping the bird, his index finger is almost on the trigger. Does it look like that to you?

[TomNickell]

69. Point the -THUMB- to the sky..

In the ME you flip someone the bird by holding the thumb in the air.

Or so I was told many years ago. Fellow described how he watched WWII movies with friends and laughed uproariously as the pilots flipped each other off.

As to the question...it's just a frigging picture. You can't figure much out, no matter how long you stare at it.

[merh]

76. It was a simple question cause it looks to me like he is flipping off

his audience. If you look at it, you will see what I mean. It was a simple observation and a simple question about the observation. Don't be such a meany. If you want to believe everything this administration tells you then you go right ahead. That is certainly your prerogative. If I want to ask questions, then I can ask them. You did not have to respond Mr. Smarty.

(hey, if they tell you that the world is flat, don't believe 'em)

[nose pin]

80. I read a story

A soldier was describing the differing reactions they get from locals in different neighborhoods around Baghdad. He said something like: In one area, all the kids will be smiling and giving you a thumbs up, and a few blocks away they will all be flipping you the bird.

Strictly anectdotal, so don't take me as an authority on this.

[merh]

83. thanks, I was curious since gunman looks to be flipping us off (n/t)

[Ouabache]

84. I suppose a ME terrorist might be aware that the middle finger is the bird

for an American audience, rather than the thumb-up used in the ME, since they are more aware of our culture than we are of theirs - however I had noticed and wondered that myself, that guy with the gun is definitely flipping off to the camera...so I am glad others noticed it too. I was beginning to wonder if anyone would mention it.

[merh]

90. I don't believe "true" Islamic fundamentalists would use an

American gesture like flipping us the bird. It doesn't coincide with their religion, it's too western. IMHO

[DoyBoy]

66. One thing I see ...

in these pics and the Berg vid is that they place the head on the victim's back afterwords and make a point to show it that way. In the Pearl vid this is not the case (as well as no orange clothing).

But that's just me.

[JCMach1]

92. MO, please understand that arabs come in all shades

from African black to lighter than me...