French Nazi hunter encourages Jews to leave France

[drdon326]

Six decades after the end of the Holocaust, the prominent French Nazi-hunter Serge Klarsfeld said this weekend that French Jews would be best off leaving the country.

"One of the lessons of the Holocaust is that even if you want to fight against a wave of anti-Semitism, the best is to leave if you can," Klarsfeld said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post during a visit to Israel.

At the same time, Klarsfeld, who lives in Paris, said that he does not expect there be a great wave of Jewish emigration from France to either Israel or the US because most French Jews are well off.

While clearly differentiating between the rise of Nazi power in the late 1930s and the situation in France today, Klarsfeld drew a direct parallel to the Holocaust, stating that history has proven it would have been best "had the Jews of Poland and the Jews of Austria left Europe when they could have."

Klarsfeld's remarks come on the heels of reports that the Jewish Agency was planning to launch a campaign to persuade French Jews to immigrate to Israel to escape a wave of anti-Semitism.

The French government reported earlier this month that it had recorded 180 incidents of attacks or threats against Jews or Jewish-owned property since the start of this year, attributed to an increasingly violent second- and third-generation Muslim population.

With six million Muslims and 600,000 Jews, France has both the largest Muslim and Jews populations in Europe.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1087628460815&p=1006953079845

[dudeness]

1. can any french DUers respond to these allegations??

n/t

[drdon326]

2. Which specific allegations are you referring to?

.

[dudeness]

3. mainly the allegations of the waves of anti-semitism

having recently watched a program on the effects of the headscarf ban on muslim schoolgirls it would seem racism is alive and well in france..I would hope this is not true..

[drdon326]

6. Unfortunately ......

it is true.

[thebigidea]

17. good thing we have French DUers like you, huh?

[mmonk]

7. anti-semitism

has been prevalent in France for quite awhile.

[Flagg]

24. well, I hate to admit it

But, Yeah
We're all racists.

[dudeness]

31. I meant no offence to you flagg...

obviously, the french are no more or less racist than the rest of us..you have cultural assimilation issues like many other countries and no doubt handle them with great sensitivity..however, the issue of Islamic headwear as worn by schoolgirls could have been handled somewhat better..

[molly]

4. I worked with a woman several years ago whose

mother was a WWII war bride from France. She told me that her mother told her horrible things about the Jews - she basically blamed what the Nazis had done in France on the Jews. She taught her American children her version of history.

[Gore1FL]

5. What is amazing

is that the suggestion is to move from france to ISREAL to evade anti-semitism?

Thats sort of like moving from Arizona to the inside of an active volcano to evade heat...

[mmonk]

8. lol

[drdon326]

9. From the article:

Although the numbers fell last year, over 2,500 French Jews immigrated to Israel in 2002, double the number a year earlier and the most since 1967.

[nodehopper]

16. not really

if you had said danger or instability, your analogy would be sort of accurate. But Israel is the locus of Jewish Pride. I am not talking about Israel's foreign policies and the likudchiks who are running it now, but yes, it makes sense to move from anywhere to Israel to escape anti-seminitism. Many people from the USSR moved there for that very reason. Same goes for many other countries.

[Classical_Liberal]

10. Israeli immgration numbers are down

so they are fearmongering french jews. Despite antisemitic attack Jews are still statistically safer from violent death in france than in Israel.

[Aidoneus]

11. Some Jewish agencies were angry at Germany recently..

for being generous about allowing immigration of Russian Jews into Germany instead of to Palestine. Those damn anti-semetic Germans.. what were they thinking, letting them in like that?! Sharon needs them as cannon fodder!

[anchorsaweigh7903]

12. Muslim expansion/Migration

Once again a version of history fidder foddering itself. I believe the Islam religion is fighting a quite crusade, spreading their religion over boundless regions. You can see this in France,Italy, and all the Med Countries. I know here in Naples, they are literally shutting Catholic churches down from lack of attendance and they have built a mosque on the outskirts of town. Many Europeans fear the coming of Islam, due to what they hear in the news. What is happening in the states? I haven't been there in a while, but from what I hear the Muslim population is growing tremendously, and the Americans are sharing the same sentiment as the Europeans.

[supernova]

13. Islam is

the fastest growing religion here at the moment. Moreso than Judaism, Catholicism, and the various Protestant denominations. Though I think Catholicism runs a close second, due to an influx of Hispanic immigrants.

I think there's something like 3 million Jews in the US, and 4 or 5 million Muslims.

If anyone has better numbers, feel free to correct me.

[Classical_Liberal]

14. Muslim fundyism is dangerious but muslims are hardly

responsible for Catholics not attending church. I believe all three monotheistic fundamentalism are on crusade and want a clash of civilizations. I am determined not to cooperate, and I won't take Pat Robertson side.

[Scairp]

15. Hate crimes are not the Nuremberg Laws

This is not the French government enacting anti-Semitic laws designed to eventually rid the country of Jews. Not the same thing at all.

[nodehopper]

19. When hate crimes are enabled by the government

and failure to address and engage them is emabling,
they become de facto policy.

I think it could be argued that racism is a policy issue in the US even though on paper everyone is equal now.

[Classical_Liberal]

20. The government has been prosecuting the hate crimes

What more can they do? There doing a better job of protecting Jews than Israel.

[nodehopper]

21. What are you talking about?

I don't understand your point about Israel.

And what can they do? I can think of various national campaigns, education, community programs, all of which would be more effective than the obligatory post facto prosecution.

[Classical_Liberal]

22. They are doing education campaigns

and hate crimes are down from last year, though they are not gone from the seen. Jews are safer from violent death there, than in Israel, that was the point. The purpose of this article was to get Jews to move to Israel. If Israelis can't convince their muslims not to do hate crimes, why France can be completely successful?

[nodehopper]

23. Good about the education campaigns

Hopefully they will step them up.

And I think a lot of people would rather risk a (low) incidence of death in a country where they are not second-class citizens than live in an anti-semitic climate.

[Classical_Liberal]

25. Jews have full voting rights in France, so they aren't second class

citizens. There is no government program to persectute or discriminate against them. The government also does a much better job protecting them than the Israeli government.

[nodehopper]

26. Jews had voting rights in the USSR too

and there was no government program to persecute them. Nevertheless, they were still de facto second-class citizens.

I don't necessarily agree with your point about protection but we are both going to interpret it our own way.

[Classical_Liberal]

29. Nobody had voting rights in the USSR

and the comparison between France and the USSR is pretty absurd.

[nodehopper]

32. Well, you were making an argument in terms of official policies

The Jews in USSR has the same on-paper rights as the rest of the population, w/r/t housing, employment, etc.
However, they were still second-class citizens.
I am not comparing the two countries on the whole, I am just using this comparison to point out that even though the government may not officially implement policies rooted in ideologies, if the climate of a country is anti-semitic and the government does not effectively combat that, Jews can still be second-class citizens.

[Classical_Liberal]

33. By that standard Jews are most certainly second class

citizens in Israel, who fail much more massively in stopping antisemitic hatecrimes against Jews.

[nodehopper]

34. No...

The Israeli government is run by the Jews for the Jews...the second-class citizens in Israel are Palestinians.

Do you honestly not understand the point I am making? Israel is the Jewish state and is not antisemitic in rhetoric, cultural paradigms, or government direction. The fact that hate crimes against the Jews who are viewed as the occupying force are committed there does not make Israel antisemitic. Jews are not the persecuted minority there.

[Classical_Liberal]

35. France is a country run by all citizens{including Jews}

for it's citizens(inculding Arabs). The fact that antisemitic hate crimes happen there doesn't make the french state antisemitic. The fact that a state is not run for Jews by Jews doesn't make it antisemitic. Furthermore the fact that that Israel treats Palestinians as second class citizens has no protective affect what so ever for Jews, and probably does more harm that good, so the Jews who are running it, are pretty incompentant at protecting Jews from hate crimes, whatever their intents. Besides I submit they aren't protecting Jews.I submit they are not even trying to protect Jews. I submit they are protecting settlements and settlers on the West Bank at the expense of Jews in the state of Israel.

[nodehopper]

37. Historically France has had antisemitic proclivities

as a part of its culture. That does not mean that everyone in France is anti-semitic, it just means that certain cultures have historically let anti-semitism flourish while others did not. Nowhere was it more evident than during WWII when places like France and Ukraine and Poland, even though invaded by the Germans certainly did not have qualms about aiding the persecution of the Jews, whereas places like Denmark did all they could to protect their Jews, like everyone wearing a star of David on their sleeve in solidarity. The French Government has been historically complicit in collaborations aimed against the Jews, there is a history of anti-semitism in France from the Dreyfuss affair to Petain and the Vichy government to the hate crimes in the subsequent decades.
For God's sake, consider the popularity of LePen and the National Front, an unapologetic anti-semite and a kindred spirit of Vladimir Zhirinovsky.
Consider the French-Jewish writer, Marek Halter who was due to receive a literary prize in the NF-controlled city of Toulon. But then the National Front mayor of the city, Jean Marie LeChevallier, overruled the selection committee and awarded the prize to a "true" deserving person of French culture--Brigitte Bardot, who supports the NF.

[Classical_Liberal]

40. Le Pen lost

and sparked enormous protests. Le Pen expressed much more hostility to muslims then Jews. Having a preference for Bardot maybe dumb, but it isn't antisemitic. There were collaborators in all Nazi invaded countries. There were even collaborators in the Jewish community itself. Most Danes didn't wear the star of David.

I don't think Israel is worthy of an immigration boost(approval) right now since I think their actions on the west bank are primarily responsible for adding kindling to these sentiments against Jews both in Israel and France. They are also likely to settle the French Jews on the West Bank. So the interest they seem to have in protecting Jews manifests itself in really funny , and contraindicated ways. If I was a french Jew and wanting safety, Israel would be the last place I would go, presuming I would go at all.

I don't really accept the notion cerain zionists have that one must live in a Jewish state to be safe.

[nodehopper]

18. Disgusting

Disgusting that the government isn't doing anything about it.
Disgusting that not much seems to have changed during the last century.
It's always about votes. Just like the US didn't care about the fate of the Palestinians during the Partition because of the large number of the Jewish Voters, France will take the side of its anti-semitic majority over the Jewish minority. Because what counts is who will be voting for you and how many votes they will cast.

[Trajan]

27. HOW can a government control what citizens THINK ? ....

Actions and behaviours are actionable: those who commit crimes SHOULD be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law ....

IF a jew property is stolen or damaged; then he who stole or damaged that property should be charged and convicted of theft or vandalism ...

IF a jew is libelled; then he who libelled him should be charged and convicted with libel ...

IF a jew is assaulted; then he who assulted him should be charged and convicted with assault ...

IF a jew is murdered; then he who murdered him should be charged and convicted with murder ...

etc ...

Beyond such legal actions: HOW can a nation change fundamental beliefs of such a portion of its population ? ...

Public education campaigns can go far: .. indeed ...

But one might also note that the current regime in Israel has helped engender distaste for Israeli policies in general, and by association, the jewish people and their image ...

Sharon does not exist in a vacuum .... and Likud cannot expect that there will be NO social ramifications for such surly and belligerent policies ....

The western opinion of muslims has been damaged by the violent actions of muslim extremists, and it certainly stands to reason that the 'extreme' actions of Likud would impact the opinion in western europe of the jewish people as well ...

How much 'hatred' is anti-semitic ? .. how much is based on legitimate disgust with current Likud policies ?? ..

Some parties would like to confuse both causes ...

[nodehopper]

28. The government can educate and promote tolerance

Obviously in America the government can't FORCE people to be non-racist, but there are initiatives that aim to change that proclivity.

"How much 'hatred' is anti-semitic ? .. how much is based on legitimate disgust with current Likud policies ?? .. "

Well, that can be argued about. I believe that it's mostly the first justified by the second, based on historical tendencies and precedent.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Wow

So if some Muslim teenagers beat up a Jewish kid in France they are just showing their disgust with "current Likud policies"....

That's great...

That makes almost as much sense at the Detroit men who beat up a Cambodian kid (the idiots thought he was Japanese) because they lost their jobs in the auto plants because of Japanese imports...

Bigotry can never be explained or intellectualized away...


Jews are no more personally responsible for Sharon's "surly and belligerent policies" than Americans are responsible for Bush's "surly and belligerent policies".

[bleedingheart]

30. The Vein of Anti-Semitism runs deep in Europe in spite of

the lessons of WWII and the Holocaust.

I know from personal experience that even in my own family that hatred of the Jews persists, especially among the older members of my family. I have been embarrassed beyond belief by things that some of my uncles have said because they were taught by their eastern european and even western european parents that the Jews were the root of all evil. I won't even repeat some of the crap that they say, it is just too sickening.

[SmokingJacket]

38. Seems like a very bad idea...

If the Jews fled Europe, wouldn't that just give the anti-Semites exactly what they want, and encourage this kind of ethnic hatred? Cripes -- if another Holocaust were imminent, I could see the case for it.

Am I being naive here? Is the situation worse than I think? I'm not in France.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I Would Think That If The Jews Left Europe They Would Be Missed

Just look at a list of Nobel Prize winners in Economics, Science, and Medicine and you'll see why...