What exactly is the difference between a liberal and a progressive?

[rhino47]

I was having a discussion with a wingnut that asked me that question.I guess I wasnt clear in my definition.He thinks that progressive (exact quote) is a name for liberals.Liberals are too ashamed but called liberal(his words not mine) so they made up the term progressive.
Thank you all in advance for your input.

[NMDemDist2]

1. i will be interested in the answers to this post n/t

[boobooday]

2. Ask him why they made "liberal" a bad word

And see if he knows.

We should not let them trash the word liberal anymore! We should just direct them straight to Merriam-Webster, and tell them to shut the hell up!

God, I hate that. What they do is try to steal words and concepts and images, and pretend ownership. Examples are the FLAG, JESUS, FAMILY, MOTHERHOOD, etc. It's always an Orwellian facade.

I think the only way to get the symbols and icons back is to take back the media. Because they are the disseminators.

In other words, I agree with him that there are not distinct differences between "liberals" and "progressives." And it doesn't matter one bit, because there was NEVER anything wrong with being liberal in the first place. If we play their game, they will just attach bad connotations to anything we call ourselves, and it will be endless stupidity, their favorite thing. Let's not play.

Proud to be a liberal.

Edit: added more rant



http://www.wgoeshome.com

[theivoryqueen]

47. rant on patriot - am glad to read it

it helps arm me for future encounters with just such fools

[Cyrano]

3. Reagan spent 8 years sneering the word "liberal"

and thus managed to turn it into a dirty word. Since so many people see it as a negative word, liberals started using the term "progressive."

Can't wait until we can turn conservative into a dirty word.

[amber dog democrat]

4. We are talking generalizations here.

I guess there are no differences. Both terms are labels - that don't mean anything without elaboration.

[rbnyc]

5. My first reaction was similar...

...that Progressives are Liberals who have given in to the stigmatization of the word liberal. But I think there's a bit more to it than that. But now I've overstayed my lunch break by 5 minutes, so I'll check back later for answers from progressives.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gumby]

7. Limbaugh says the same thing all the time.

There are specific definitions to these terms, but in today's usage I don't think that matters. Whatever the right makes up is what the meaning is.

[disinfo_guy]

8. the Progressive Caucus is progressive, the DNC is liberal

the DLC is neo-liberal

[info being]

9. Progressive is different than Liberal

Progressives believe not just in Liberal values such as personal freedom & responsibility to others...but in any policy that actually improves conditions...policies that work. We believe in progress. Better quality of life, minimizing harm, social justice, really-existing capitalism, etc.

16. that's where the confusion enters though

Because since the Enlightenment, Everyone in western civilization essentially believes in Progress, both conservatives and liberals.
Conservatives and liberals both would not want to go back to the days before electricity, for example.

[redqueen]

17. True

but these days conservatives also want to go back to the days before minimum wage laws, and child labor laws, etc.

So just about any conservative today is not progressive.

18. I agree

Just trying to get at the root confusions that come about as term's meanings shift.
another example
Conservative used to mean environmentalist as in conserve, not any more!
edit - thought of an example -- Wendell Berry, who is progressive probably views himself as a conservative in this sense.

[info being]

20. No Conservative idea is Progressive. By definition,

Conservatives are against change.

23. but they contradict themselves

They are against change, but they want to look for oil in Alaska.

What if Progress is the status quo? Then no change results in progress?

Since the Enlightenment, like I said before, the world view of Western Civilization is essentially one of Progress as opposed to a static world view of Feudalism.

Since these terms are so fluid, they come to mean whatever people want them to.

I'm discussing this in a more philosophical/semantic sense than political.

The problem with discussing it solely in a political sense is that it doesn't fully explain the contradiction of being against change but drilling for oil in Alaska.

[sangh0]

35. IMO, the Enlightenment was more about Reason than Progress

IMO, the difference between liberalism and progressivism is that Progressivism takes change/progress as a given and seeks to control or influence it. Liberalism is based on the idea that Reason is what we should base our decisions and values on, as opposed to conservatism which says that tradition should be what we base our decisions and values on.

A conservative can be progressive in the sense that they can assume that change/progress is a given, but how we react to it should be guided by traditional values. A liberal can be a progressive by assuming that change/progress is a given and that we should react to it using Reason.

37. Good follow through

& in the terms I was thinking of also.
I see that you worked Burke into your definition of conservative (though you didn't mention him by name) or at least I'm reading it that way.
It's been a long time since I officially studied any of this stuff.
I'm sort of winging it, but I do think it's important to go back to when these terms really started getting used in a certain way circa Locke and following from there.

[sangh0]

39. I've had the same thought myself

about backtracking to get a better understanding of how the terms came into being and evolved through history, but I've only had enough time to THINK about doing it.

[theivoryqueen]

51. but why involve reason as a qualification?

isn't "reasoning" how they got the whole torture thing approved? Lawyers love reason, as like logic, it can be bent or shaped to fit circumstance. Isn't a lot of the basis for progressive-ism defined by something more intuitive?

[sangha]

63. Because, the belief that our policies should be guided by Reason

as opposed to Authority/Tradition is (IMO) a fundamental difference between the left and the right in the US.

And while the Bush* admin did come up with a line of reasoning for why it was OK to torture the prisoners, I think we both know that was just a rationalizstion. The real reason they did it was because they could, and they think that anything they can and want to do is OK.

It's "Might makes right" and Reason doesn't support that. Tradition and Authority does.

[theivoryqueen]

49. right - but progressives want change to actually improve the situation

for all. I guess it really depends on your definition of the "Left". Hope? Progressive. Compassion? Liberal. Both? Chimera darling!

[info being]

19. Conservatives are more Reactionary...longing for the past

[Zinfandel]

45. And what do "moderates" firmly believe in? "Compassionate

Conservatism? What is moderate ideology? Sit on the fence and wait for a winner, don't change things too fast because it'll boggle their minds? Status quo, leave thing the same no matter how abstract and distorted the people in power have fuck things up... afraid of change and their own shadows?

What in the fuck is a moderate?

[LoZoccolo]

55. Uh, usually we believe that things are too complex to just rail about...

...and that you have to come up with solutions for things that actually work where there are sometimes more than one desired goal.

[redqueen]

10. Not positive

but they are NOT interchangeable.

There have been republican progressives as well Fightin Bob being one.

[IrateCitizen]

11. Progressives have historically been more radical than liberals

Liberals have traditionally sought to stay within the confines of the status quo, tweaking it in order to make it more fair. Progressives, OTOH, have tended to be a bit more radical, seeking to significantly alter the status quo.

A case in point of the difference between "progressive" and "liberal" might be to look at one of the fathers of progressivism, former Wisconsin Senator and Presidential Candidate Robert "Fighting Bob" LaFollette. In his run for the presidency, LaFollette championed ideas like the forced takeover of railroad conglomerates by the government, and the holding of a plebicite before the country could ever be committed to war.

In modern days, this could be demonstrated as the difference between Nancy Pelosi and Bernie Sanders. Pelosi is a liberal, who largely seeks to maintain the status quo but just make it a little less inequitable. Sanders is a progressive who seeks in some ways to significantly alter the status quo, recognizing that it is inequitable and brings out some of our worst instincts itself, and that no amount of "tweaking" will change its most basic nature.

In case you couldn't have guessed by the way in which I framed this, I consider myself much more of a progressive than a liberal.

[rhino47]

14. My impression of progressive is

Progressives want sweeping change for the "greater good" A concept that seems to have been lost with the raygun hate the poor and screw the little guy attitude of the 80`s.
I feel liberals want more to offset the right wings deregulation of corp, and unfair social cuts with slow and steady incentives toward change.
I feel more aligned with the over night progressive (marching forward I like to think of it) of elevating the weakest and most put upon in our country.I feel liberals are right in thought but progressives are more into action.I think that progressives are more socialistic too.Which is totally cool with me.
What do the rest of you think?

[ieoeja]

32. It's not status quo.

Liberals want to make/keep things more ... liberal. Where the status quo is already liberal, then liberals, like conservatives, support the status quo. Where things are less liberal, then liberals, like progressives, oppose the status quo.

Liberal is a concept unrelated to change. We liberals only find ourselves so often allied with you progressive scum because the conservatives too frequently challenge your very right to try to change society. And that right is a liberal right.

[IrateCitizen]

56. Progressive scum???

We liberals only find ourselves so often allied with you progressive scum because the conservatives too frequently challenge your very right to try to change society.

:wtf:

I am hoping that the open disdain you are displaying in your post is sarcasm. Because if it isn't, and your attitude is indicative of a typical liberal attitude, I'm afraid it's not one I want anything to do with.

[hiphopnation]

12. Methinks this is a question of semantics

There are a myriad of variations of "liberal progressive" political parties all over the world. In the political arena I think it could be argued that the two terms are interchangeable.

I guess, in short, as the prefix suggests, a progressive, is someone who is for the general progress of the human race.

A liberal, as it's commonly used in modern political lexicon, is a person is often affiliated with a political party that affixes itself to the left side of a specifically defined political spectrum.

I'm just talkin out my ass.

[info being]

21. And semantics are important

The commonly-accepted definitions from wikipeda:

Liberalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Liberalism may be used to describe one of several ideologies that claims individual liberty as one of the highest values in social life. It typically favors the right to dissent from orthodox tenets or established authorities in political or religious matters, in contrast to institutional conservatism and/or despotism.

1. One broad usage of the term is for a tradition of thought that tries to circumscribe the limits of political power, and to define and support individual rights. We can call this "political liberalism".
2. What can be called "economic liberalism" insists upon the necessity of free trade, is outraged by cartels and monopolies, and sees no merit in a government that meddles unnecessarily in the marketplace.
3. Another, common usage, is used as a shorthand for the ideology of social-democracy or "new" or "modern" liberalism.
4. Neoliberalism borrows from some of the ideas of classic liberalism, but departs significantly in other ways.
5. Another, less common usage, is to denote the tradition of various liberal parties. However, though said liberal parties were originally founded on the Enlightenment tradition, they significantly diverged from it since they came to power in the 19th century, and "liberal" parties around the world are now based on a variety of loosely related ideologies. Some would therefore claim that the ideological content of the word depends on the geographical context.
See: political liberalism.
6. In addition to the political usages above, the term "liberal" is also used in theology to refer to people who hold to views which depart from their religion's orthodoxy.
See: liberal theology, Modernism (Roman Catholicism).
7. The term liberalism is also used for a major theory of international relations, typically to support international bodies like the United Nations and multilateral action.

------------------

Progressivism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Progressive is a term often used by those on the political left to describe their beliefs. This term is preferred by many over the more traditional label in American politics, liberal, because of the association of liberal with the centrist politics of many Democratic Party politicians (such as Al Gore) in recent years. The word "liberal" has become essentially pejorative, thorugh the consistent usage of critics; one is much more likely to see "liberal" in the mode of "Tax-and-spend liberal," than in any sort of positive context. The term progressive is thus used to avoid confusion between the politicized term liberal and genuine philosophical views focused on social change. Progressive is technically a loaded term, as it may imply that those opposed to "progressive" views are automatically regressive.

Progressive is used in place of liberal to best describe philosophical ideals that are opposite and contrasted to those held by conservatives. Political ideas that advocate rapid social change are likely to be progressive, while conservative ideas tend to reflect an adherence to established norms and support for (or furtherance of) the status quo. Continuing logically, by this spectrum, a philosophy that advocated reversing course to previous standards would be regressive, though this term is rarely used. Instead, the term reactionary is more frequently used to describe those who wish to return to previously established convention.

This is particularly useful when dealing with philosophical positions, since the liberal tradition has very particular and fixed Enlightenment connotations that may not necessarily have any useful meaning in the left political scene.

The term has its origin in American politics in the early part of the twentieth century. During this period, known as the Progressive Era, which saw the brief rise of the U.S. Progressive Party, many reforms were enacted. Some third-party presidential candidates ran for office during this time under the Progressive Party label, notably Robert M. La Follette, Sr..

[info being]

13. Here is the currently-accepted definition in wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

Don't agree with it, change it! BTW, a Progressive is more likely to prefer Wikipedia (power shifted to the poeple) vs. Dictionary.com (centralized power).

[GoBucksBeatBush]

15. historically...

progressive was rather different than liberal in some ways. the "progressive era" (i.e. early 1900's) was marked by dramatic shift in how people viewed government, which continued on to fully bloom during the new deal era.
simply put, progressives (in my opinion) believe that government can be a positive force for change in our society, protecting the least of us, and making sure that the corporate entities don't run completly roughshod over everything. progressives in the early 1900's also believed that technology could be used to improve life and the world around them.

notable progressives from the early 1900s included John Muir (started the Sierra club, concerned with the rape of nature and the environment that was(is) happening), Teddy Roosevelt (one wouldn't really call him a liberal, as he thought the military and warfar were just grand to use as he saw fit, but who also was committed to busting up the trusts, etc., and others who's efforts eventually paid off in things like the Food and Drug admininstration, meat inspection, etc.

today, i believe that progressives still view government as a force for positive change, and also have a positive view of technology. (when's the last time a "conservative" invented something that was used as a positive force for change, as opposed to something to be used to destroy?) i'll give you michael dell, but then again, you could argue that his methods of distributing computers effectively destroyed much innovation from competitors he drove out of business. but i digress...

liberals, i would contend, believe in many of the same basic philosophies as progressives, but also would be somewhat more concerned about philosophical/idological issues, rather than progressives who work towards an end result of a more just, fair society.


the two can probably be lumped in together as an amalgam, but i would agree...whomever controls the vernacular of a conversation has all the power...if "liberal" in inherantly a dirty or bad word, than 3/4 of the fight is over before it began...in reading old legislative history of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, for example, many of the Congress were proud to be called "liberal." nowadays, simply becase Lush Rimjob and others like him have made it so, liberal has negative connotations.


just my $.02.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

22. "progressives" nowadays usually mean "leftist" or quasi-socialist

or marxists.

The old, historic term "Progressive" meant pretty much what was meant by "liberal" in the 1960s and 70s, but the term has been somewhat hijacked by the more marxist or socialist left.

[genius]

24. They're the same thing. Look up liberals. Liberals are good people

Seriously, check the dictionary definition. You'll be impressed. The Republicans have demonized the word liberal and the Democrats have let them get away with it. Next they will will demonize the word "good" and people will want to avoid saying they are good. BTW, I'm proud to be a liberal.

[geek tragedy]

25. A good PR firm.

Thank you folks, I'm here all week.

[hiphopnation]

29. (BUH BOOM)

CRASH!!!

:D Good one! :thumbsup:

[ieoeja]

26. As to being ashamed of the label "liberal".

Regressives - Remember When This Country Was Great?
Conservatives - Respect Tradition!
Progressives - Moving the Country Into The Future
Liberals - Live Free or Die!

Liberal doesn't really fit in this comparison. The first three are defined by change: go back, stand still, or move forward. Liberalism is less evolutionary. In fact, I am pretty certain there are traditions supported by conservatives and opposed by progressives today that were put in place by progressives over conservative objections some hundred years ago, the Teddy Roosevelt era I believe.

Ashamed to be liberal? The core principals of this country are intensely liberal. I am quite liberal, happy to proclaim myself so, and will gleefully educate those who don't know the meaning of liberal. Conversely, there are many areas where I very much disagree with the changes proposed by SOME progressives. For example:

o lower requirements / increased punishment for drunk driving
o bans on tobacco in bars (I don't smoke)
o ANWR (as gas producing companies encroach on Yellowstone, you've decided to concentrate your efforts north of the Arctic Circle?)
o the "assault weapons" ban (ban functionality, not appearance; this just makes progressives look ignorant)

The first of those has as many conservative supporters as progressive. Every active member I have met in MADD -- those who work for the organization, not those who just wear a ribbon and maybe attend a speech or join a march now and then -- are also members of the Women's Christian Temperance Union. The WCTU is neither progressive, nor liberal, though they have allied themselves with some progressives on this particular issue.

[DaveSZ]

28. Teddy Roosevelt's domestic policy

That's how I define "progressive."

[ConsAreLiars]

27. Both are adjectives that sloppy thinkers use as nouns.

Whatever groupings of people they are intended to include or exclude is purely subjective. The term "progressive" dates well back into the history of US politics. Here's one place politically neutral place to start: http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/gahff/html/ff_149800_progressivem.htm

"Progressive Movement
(1889-1920), a broad-based campaign for economic, political, and social reforms. The movement addressed the power of big business and advocated aid for farmers and protection for consumers. The reforms included passage of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Amendments, the Pure Food and Drug Act, the Meat Inspection Act, and the Sherman and Clayton Anti-Trust Acts. Progressives supported initiative, recall, referendum, and direct primary laws. Also during this time, attacks were made on child labor, sweatshops, slum conditions, and women working excessive hours. Leading figures in the Progressive Era included the muckrakers, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Robert La Follette, Eugene V. Debs, John Peter Altgeld, Hiram Johnson, William James, John Dewey, and George Norris."

The fool's suggestion that the term is a recent euphemism used to substitute for "liberal" is absurd.

During the Anti-Communist purges in the US the "liberal-conservative" construct came into favor as a means to mask the class conflict inherent in the Progressive movement. This led to criticism from old and new style progressives about the compromising nature of the "liberals." For example, take a trip back to the sixties:

From: http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/liberal.html

Love Me, I'm a Liberal
By Phil Ochs

E A E A
I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
E C#m
Tears ran down my spine
E A E
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
F#7 B7
As though I'd lost a father of mine
E A E
But Malcolm X got what was coming
G#m A
He got what he asked for this time
E C#m A B7 E
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
As long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crane?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democtratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal


Notes:

Sonny Ochs says: "Lerner & Golden were both columnists with left-leaning tendencies. Harry Golden, a humorist, wrote some marvelous books and short stories. One I recall is his plan for integration in schools in the south (this was back when). Since the Southerners didn't mind blacks standing next to whites when making purchases in stores, he proposed that they take out all the chairs in the schools and let the students stand to learn. He called this "vertical integration."

Jason V. says: "Les Crane had a talk show based in NYC. Crane was quite liberal, and had many folksingers on his show. (Here's the transcript of his interview with Bob Dylan and Odetta."

Jello Biafra and Mojo Nixon did a cover of this song with some updated lyrics (on their album "Prairie Home Invasion." Mojo Nixon sang this updated version solo on Comedy Central during their 1996 State of the Union show.

Chords supplied by Guy Matz and corrected by James Barnett.

Jan Hauenstein says ``Phil Ochs didn´t write the melody which comes from an old Irish folk song, "Rosin the Bow". That melody also found a new home in several American folk songs before Phil put it to good use. The melody for the "chorus-line" (Love me, love me, love me, I´m a liberal) is probably original Ochs, though.''
Last modified 2 Nov 02 by trent

[DaveSZ]

30. Exactly

I think of Tom Daschle as a liberal.

He represents the status quo.

Progressives break the bonds and shackles of the status quo for the good of mankind and nature alike.


This is only my view however.

:)

[Realityhack]

31. Not necisarily

some people have picked up the existing term and used it in a new way as a word for liberal. Also some people use it as others have stated to distance themselves from corporate liberals or whatever you want to call them who they feel have caved in too much to the right and have become the less right right wing or whatever...

As others have said probobly better than I the definition depends on usage. One must define terms for a specific debate/use. Just like you would in a scientific paper etc.

I mean by progressive.....

RH

[DaveSZ]

33. I think we shouldn't focus so much on labels in the first place

Not all conservatives agree with El Busho on every issue, and not all progressives agree with, say, Dennis Kucinich on every issue.

[Blue-Jay]

34. It's semantics, for the most part.

The word "progessive" has caught on recently as a result of the demonization of the word "liberal" by the RW talking heads (heads-up-asses, actually). Listen to how they say they word sometimes: El Gasbag always hangs on the first sylable "LLLLIBeral", as if the word has to fester in his drug-ridden throat for a while. It's not by accident. When you act like you hate even saying a particular word, people pick up on that and associate that word as being a bad thing.

That said, I also like the word "progressive", as it implies PROGRESS, instead of a regression to the failed policies of the past. Still, it's up to every one of us to take back the word "liberal" from the scumbag coward chicken-shit idiot pieces of human garbage who have co-opted it. It's MY word. It's a true word. It's a good word.

/proud LIBERAL & PROGRESSIVE voter.

[CO Liberal]

36. The Important Thing is They're Both Different From Conservatives...

...who are know-nothing, ignorant fools.

[leftofthedial]

38. a liberal takes pot shots at Lieberman

a progressive takes pot shots at Kerry

[scarletwoman]

40. I see progressives as MACRO-thinkers, liberals as MICRO-thinkers

I prefer to call myself a progressive, NOT because I've internalized the right wing denegration of the term, "liberal", but because, to me, the term "progressive" encompasses a much larger and more dynamic paradigm.

As a lifelong liberal Democrat just a few months away from being 55 years old, I've watched traditional liberalism become increasingly ineffective. It has devolved from what was once cutting edge social consciousness into nanny-statism and desultory tinkerings with the status quo.

Liberalism loves its "causes" -- save the whales, save the rainforest, recycling, etc. -- yet makes no great demands upon the System which makes these causes necessary in the first place.

Liberalism loves to insist upon "politically correct" speech, especially in regard to race and ethnicity, but in practice, liberalism rarely goes so far as to question the underlying and omnipresent cultural assumptions of white privilege.

In short, modern American liberalism seems content to tinker with the details of how our society functions, without overtly challenging its root dysfunctionality.

To me, "progressive" is a much more active and encompassing concept than "liberal". As a progressive, I utilize a "whole systems" analysis as a basis for action.

A liberal might work for "gun control", which basically means controlling the purchase of guns (an example of nanny-statism). As a progressive, I see the problem as being one of supply -- forget restricting gun ownership, what can be done to address the business of manufacturing arms?

Liberalism seeks to make capitalism more equitable and accountable. As a progressive, I question the very concept of capitalism itself. (And no, I'm NOT a Marxist. I'm a "Kortenist" -- read David Korten: http://www.pcdf.org/ )

These are just a few of my own thoughts, for what it's worth...

sw

[IrateCitizen]

59. That's a damn good definition/distinction, scarletwoman!

You summed up the difference between liberalism and progressivism from my POV better than I was able to, along with helping me to define why I consider myself to be more of a progressive than a liberal. I don't believe in nanny-statism, but rather the concept of effectively using government to affect and address positive change and societal evolution.

[scarletwoman]

61. Thank you, IC !

I've thought about this particular issue -- "progressive" vs. "liberal" -- for quite some time. In all my years, I never shied away from proudly calling myself a liberal. I come from a long family line of unequivocally proud liberals, and none of us ever accepted the defamation of the term.

However, as my political education has evolved and deepened, as I've explored the vast shadowy realm behind the "third curtain" (wonderful term coined by Constance Rice), it has become apparent to me that even the very best of liberalism as I've known it is inadequate to the true task at hand.

And so, there's ol' Fightin' Bob LaFollette, beckoning from history and striking a chord in me. I am MORE than a liberal, I am an evolutionary revolutionary, I am a paradigm warrior, I am a PROGRESSIVE!

(ta da!)

sw

[scarletwoman]

41. Dang it! I'm so frustrated about being a thread killer!

So I'm giving this a :kick:

sw

[69KV]

42. times change

1910s-20s:

Liberal: Supporter of modest reforms, the income tax, and the most conservative (AF of L) wing of organized labor. Supported World War I. Voted Democratic.

Progressive: Voted for Robert LaFollette. Supporter of radical reforms, breaking up monopolies, regulating corporations. Equally likely to be Democrats, Republicans, or third party. Opposed World War I and stuck to their guns even after it was over.


1948:

Liberal: Supported Truman, anti-USSR, opposed alliance between liberals and communists. Big supporter of organized labor and the New Deal programs.

Progressive: Supported Henry Wallace, opposed Cold War with USSR, worked openly with communists. Thought FDR didn't go far enough.


1992:

Liberal: Supported Clinton, pro-choice, pro-environment, etc. Listens to NPR.

Progressive: Thought Clinton was a conservative, fan of Noam Chomsky, more likely to read Z Magazine or listen to Pacifica Radio than to NPR. Big into identity politics.


Today:

Liberal: Us here on this board.

Progressive: Identical to liberal. The right wing has made liberal a dirty word. Some liberals are afraid to call themselves liberals so they looked for another name, and found Progressive.

[Cat Atomic]

43. Progressives are liberals who've been convinced "liberal" is a dirty word.

[scarletwoman]

48. That's absolute nonsense.

See my post #40. I don't think "liberal" is a dirty word. I just think that liberalism fails to address the root problems in our society.

sw

[Cat Atomic]

52. I like your definition quite a bit.

However, the people I've seen calling themselves "progressives" have been mainstream Democratic politicians. They're anything but "progressive", as you've described it. They seem to be simply afraid of using the word "liberal" to describe themselves.

I call myself a liberal, and I'm no less interested in moving forward than you are. I'm not focussed on PC speech, or any number of silly non-issues that we've allowed the right to identify us with.

To me, liberalism never had anything to do with the wacky garbage that people on the right say it does. I'm not inclined to back away from it.

[dansolo]

64. I'll be willing to bet

That some of those mainstream Democratic politicians you speak of are neither liberal nor progressive.

[Aidoneus]

44. umm.. "liberal"=Diane Feinstein, "progressive"=Eugene Debs

roughly speaking..

liberals are trying to hijack the term, but cannot claim invention.

[scarletwoman]

46. Thank you!

I was beginning to feel quite peeved with the "progressives are too embarassed to use the word 'liberal'" b.s. I 'm seeing here.

I know EXACTLY why I call myself a "progressive" -- it's because "liberal" doesn't go far enough!

sw

[rhino47]

60. Kick SW

:kick: exactly ! liberal doesnt go far enough for me either.

[thebigmansentme]

50. i think

progressive is basically somebody who is looking to better the world without following a strict ideology. it's the willingness to try anything and see if it works, if it doesn't you try something else, but you have the ability to adapt and to include positions from different political platforms. in that sense i think FDR was the first progressive and the greatest president. clinton was a progressive as well because he was not afraid to try some conservative positions just to see if it would work.

[eridani]

53. Foreign policy

Progressives think that imperialism is generally a bad thing. Liberals don't mind it at all--they disagree with conservatives in that they think the loot should be shared with the general public, as opposed to conservatives who want the CEOs to have most of it.

[scarletwoman]

54. Good one!

Nice and succinct. :thumbsup:

sw

[Q]

57. Liberal/Progressive

liberal

\Lib"er*al\ (lb"<~e>r*al), a. ral, L. liberalis, from liber free; perh. akin to libet, lubet, it pleases, E. lief. Cf. Deliver.] 1. Free by birth; hence, befitting a freeman or gentleman; refined; noble; independent; free; not servile or mean; as, a liberal ancestry; a liberal spirit; liberal arts or studies. `` Liberal education.'' --Macaulay. `` A liberal tongue.'' --Shak.

2. Bestowing in a large and noble way, as a freeman; generous; bounteous; open-handed; as, a liberal giver. `` Liberal of praise.'' --Bacon.

Infinitely good, and of his good As liberal and free as infinite. --Milton.

3. Bestowed in a large way; hence, more than sufficient; abundant; bountiful; ample; profuse; as, a liberal gift; a liberal discharge of matter or of water.

His wealth doth warrant a liberal dower. --Shak.

4. Not strict or rigorous; not confined or restricted to the literal sense; free; as, a liberal translation of a classic, or a liberal construction of law or of language.

5. Not narrow or contracted in mind; not selfish; enlarged in spirit; catholic.

6. Free to excess; regardless of law or moral restraint; licentious. `` Most like a liberal villain.'' --Shak.

7. Not bound by orthodox tenets or established forms in political or religious philosophy; independent in opinion; not conservative; friendly to great freedom in the constitution or administration of government; having tendency toward democratic or republican, as distinguished from monarchical or aristocratic, forms; as, liberal thinkers; liberal Christians; the Liberal party.

I confess I see nothing liberal in this `` order of thoughts,'' as Hobbes elsewhere expresses it. --Hazlitt.

Note: Liberal has of, sometimes with, before the thing bestowed, in before a word signifying action, and to before a person or object on which anything is bestowed; as, to be liberal of praise or censure; liberal with money; liberal in giving; liberal to the poor.

The liberal arts. See under Art.

Liberal education, education that enlarges and disciplines the mind and makes it master of its own powers, irrespective of the particular business or profession one may follow.

Syn: Generous; bountiful; munificent; beneficent; ample; large; profuse; free.

Usage: Liberal, Generous. Liberal is freeborn, and generous is highborn. The former is opposed to the ordinary feelings of a servile state, and implies largeness of spirit in giving, judging, acting, etc. The latter expresses that nobleness of soul which is peculiarly appropriate to those of high rank, -- a spirit that goes out of self, and finds its enjoyment in consulting the feelings and happiness of others. Generosity is measured by the extent of the sacrifices it makes; liberality, by the warmth of feeling which it manifests.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

liberal

\Lib"er*al\, n. One who favors greater freedom in political or religious matters; an opponent of the established systems; a reformer; in English politics, a member of the Liberal party, so called. Cf. Whig.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

liberal

adj 1: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions" 2: having political or social views favoring reform and progress 3: tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition 4: given or giving freely; "was a big tipper"; "the bounteous goodness of God"; "bountiful compliments"; "a freehanded host"; "a handsome allowance"; "Saturday's child is loving and giving"; "a liberal backer of the arts"; "a munificent gift"; "her fond and openhanded grandfather" 5: not literal; "a loose interpretation of what she had been told"; "a free translation of the poem" n 1: a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties 2: a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University



progressive

Producer's rent \Producer's rent\ Progressive \Pro*gress"ive\, a. (U. S. Politics) Of or pertaining to the Progressive party.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

progressive

\Pro*gress"ive\, a. 1. Moving forward; proceeding onward; advancing; evincing progress; increasing; as, progressive motion or course; -- opposed to retrograde.

2. Improving; as, art is in a progressive state.

Progressive euchre or whist, a way of playing at card parties, by which after every game, the losers at the first table go to the last table, and the winners at all the tables, except the first, move up to the next table.

Progressive muscular atrophy (Med.), a nervous disorder characterized by continuous atrophy of the muscles. -- Pro*gress\"ive*ly, adv. -- Pro*gress\"ive*ness, n.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

progressive

adj 1: favoring or promoting progress; "progressive schools" 2: favoring or promoting reform (often by government action) 3: (of taxes) adjusted so that the rate increases as the amount increases 4: gradually advancing in extent 5: of illness; marked by gradual deterioration of organs and cells along with loss of function; "degenerative diseases of old age" 6: advancing in severity; "progressive paralysis" n 1: a tense of verbs used in describing action that is on-going 2: a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

[stilladeaniac]

58. Liberal = Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Clark. Progressive = Kucinich, Dean

n/t

[wyldwolf]

62. Looking at the policies of Howard Dean, how can you draw a distinction?

[mvd]

65. IMO progressives seem less likely to compromise

Or have a career politician mentality.