Ralph "The Fly" Nader: Neoconservatism's Last Best Hope

[Beloved Citizen]

Ralph Nader's Big Lie that he isn't harming the candidacy of John Kerry, rather he is both "empowering" disenfranchised voters while offering Republicans who could not vote for a Democrat a chance to vote against Bush, is increasingly becoming something only the most cultish of personalities could find believable.

But you should never underestimate the need some have to believe, no matter how compelling the evidence or absurd the claim.

Nader's Bush-like capacity for lying on this issue is neatly exposed in the new ABC News/Washington Post Poll:

Without Nader in the race, John Kerry now leads the closest thing we have ever had to a fascist president, 53% to 45%. However, with the disingenuous Ralph Nader in the race, the breakdown is 48% Kerry, 44% Bush, 6% Nader.

Even the most dope-addled Nader supporter should be able to deduce that while Nader takes 1% away from Bush, a full 5 percentage points comes from John Kerry.

The poll shows other interesting things as well. Kerry now leads Bush in confidence on the terrorism issue. By a 52% to 39% the public finds Kerry more honest than Bush. And Bush's Approval Number is at 47%, with a full 51% disapproving, numbers that would ordinarily point to an impending crushing defeat at the polls for the despised incumbent.

All good news, right? The most destructive president in US history is about to be booted from office, and the country returned to a path approximating clinical sanity?

Not necessarily. The right has an ally who could very well ensure that they will retain their hold on power. His name is Ralph Nader, a man whose name could very well go down in history as America's most notorious neo-fascist enabler.

Poll numbers @:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5264834/

[billbuckhead]

1. Nadir could be used as the reason BBV lets Bush win.

By obscuring the results, Nadir helps obscure the crime.

[Florida_Geek]

2. Yes, Touchscreen magic could move

Kerry votes to Nader, and the Repugs just smile and say you lost the Nader votes.

[Atman]

5. Much better spelling of the idiot's name!

Nadir! Ain't that the truth, and so obvious! Like MORAN, it should become the new "official" spelling.

[Cheswick2.0]

3. the most destructive thing Nader will do

He will try to suppress the vote of democrats by trying to convince people that it doesn't matter who wins between bush and Kerry.

I am not a fan of Kerry and sometimes I wonder if his corporate contributors will be more important to him than the laws or the people of the US. However Nader folks seems to be busy overtime trying to convince us that bush and kerry are the same. That is of course bullshit, just as it was in 2000.
If Kerry was to piss me off enough that I did not vote for him, I certainly wouldn't vote for Nader. He has absolutely no credibility with me.

[bushwakker]

4. Nader uses the Greens then disses them

Nader will use the Greens to get ballot access but he won't run as a Green. He's done nothing for the Greens yet many in the party will support him - fools.

[I thought so.]

6. Greens have not endorsed him.

Comejo has not accepted. Get mad if it happens. Nadir was supposed to deliver enough votes in 2000 to give the Green party access to Federal funds. He failed. I guess they will decide. Give them the chance. You might be surprised.

This is how I see Nadir. He has a reputation and writes articles and is a favorite on TV. With this exposure he garners an audience that will go to his lectures for which he is well paid.

I think if he was genuine he would do something concrete now that would make a difference. He could run for something that he might win. Maybe he is just a political chickenhawk.

[bushwakker]

9. they will*

[mdmc]

7. God bless Nader

And God bless those ignant' Dems that blame him for our parties triangle - ization (IGNORING THE LEFT AND LOOKING TO STEAL THE MIDDLE FROM THE GOP) . The middle ground is only fertile if you have the charisma to secure it. Kerry and Gore, you guys should co-opt the Green platform, instead of the GOP platform.
(Am I wrong?) Kerry doesn't have the charisma to ignore the left and camp out in the middle.

Go Kerry!

[Beloved Citizen]

8. A Bush-like capacity to blame others

The hallmark of Nader voters.

[mdmc]

13. blame , or take resposibility?

At least Nader voters get out and vote. Most Americans don't vote.

[Beloved Citizen]

15. "Reposibility," of course.

As in lie about on their indignant asses and blame everyone else for the reelection of George W. Bush. Reposibility, as in a predilection to be in continual repose. What a great new word to describe Nader supporters and other assorted armchair snipers.

That is one of the advantages of supporting a candidate that has all the elect-ability of Harold Stassen. Nothing can ever be your fault, all you ever have to do is criticize and bemoan a world that can never somehow rise to your exalted level.

[mdmc]

21. ouch

Thats gotta hurt!

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

29. What?

Of course Nader voters vote - that is what makes them Nader voters. I can also guarantee you that 100% of the Kerry voters will have voted.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Quite right. The votes are there for Kerry if he goes after them.

Of course, the DLC types would rather blame Nader and the Greens than move left to capture the the anti-war vote.

And, if Kerry loses because he moved right, they'll blame the left for not supporting him.

I'll vote for Kerry this time, but only because he's not nearly as bad as the Yellow-Stain-of-Texas.

[sangh0]

11. The "Nader wasn't a spoiler in 2000..."

"but if Kerry isn't left enough, Nader will play spoiler again in 2004"

More Bush*-lite "It's not *MY* fault"

[The Zanti Regent]

22. Tell that to my Jon

Thanks to Asshole Nader, Jon gets a one way ticket to Iraq, gets shot in the spine and is a quadraplegic for life.

F YOU NADER! BURN IN HELL NADER!

[BillZBubb]

24. At least Dems are trying to figure out how to win elections

and return our country to sane leadership. Nader and his ignorant apologists are only trying to disrupt them and re-anoint Prince George.

F**K NADER!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

12. I hope Nader pulls out in October and tells his voters to vote Kerry

Otherwise there won't be anything for Nader in 2005.

[mdmc]

14. That would be COOL!

There will never be 'anything' for Nader, ever. I hate to play the purist, but Nader is not in it for himself, he is in it for the cause.

[thebigmansentme]

16. just look at this prick

roy moore and pat buchanan don't run for president, but he does

[durutti]

17. I hope Kerry gets elected just to prove you all wrong.

He'll prove to be every bit the warmongerer.

[Ardee]

18. The bogeyman under the bed

You folks sure obsess about a guy who polled 2.74% of the vote in'00, wonder why ?

Instead of continuing to rant ,in rather sophomoric fashion and extreme ignorance, acting like a bunch of high school retards, you might try to comprehend why Kerry moves closer to Bush with every speech, why it is left for folks like Nader to speak out consistantly and eloquently against this administration, why the DLC is ruining the Demmocratic Party.......

But no, alas, and to the detriment of the political system here you'd rather ignore the rising waters within your own party and sink like a stone while Nader says what your own candidate should be saying!

www.votenader.org

[Ardee]

19. The bogeyman under the bed

You folks sure obsess about a guy who polled 2.74% of the vote in'00, wonder why ?

Instead of continuing to rant ,in rather sophomoric fashion and extreme ignorance, acting like a bunch of high school retards, you might try to comprehend why Kerry moves closer to Bush with every speech, why it is left for folks like Nader to speak out consistantly and eloquently against this administration, why the DLC is ruining the Democratic Party.......

But no, alas, and to the detriment of the political system here you'd rather ignore the rising waters within your own party and sink like a stone while Nader says what your own candidate should be saying!

www.votenader.org

[Beloved Citizen]

20. Wow!

"...acting like a bunch of high school retards..."

Such eloquence. Sounds like somebody is definitely not in the happy place today.

So what is it about the concept of splitting the anti-Bush vote that you find so incomprehensible?

Because Kerry doesn't quite achieve your austere standard of ideological purity you feel throwing over the whole thing and handing another 4 years to George W. Bush is perfectly acceptable? In spite of the fact that it could very well lead to even more brutal and unnecessary wars in the name of the neoconservative imperialists that run the tongue-tied little puppet? Amongst many other thing?

How does it feel to live in such a rarefied and responsibility-free world?

[Ardee]

26. I feel fine, thanks for asking

Now, about your own well being.......

Kerry has refused to consider bringing American troops home from Iraq. Kerry has refused to apologize for voting for the Patriot Act, for the invasion of Iraq, for the Homeland Security bill, remained rather silent on the abuses of NAFTA and GATT except for the shallowest and briefest of mentions and ,quite frankly ,his election means only exchanging Bush's masters for Kerry's ,same bullshit different package.

Kerry isn't seeking anti Bush voters he is trying to woo the same freaking people who voted for Bush in the first place. Many people are beginning to shake their heads and speak out against this insane campaign strategy that ignores the majority of voters in favor of the 35-40% who are going to vote GOP no matter what. John Kerry is a DLC puppet with no original thoughts, no personality and little chance of winning, or ,if elected by some freak of nature no chance of making the changes so necessary in our sick system.

Those like the neocons who dominate this forum and poison the minds of the gullible and the sophomoric, those who jump on Nader in order to distract democrats from the real problems with their party do far, far more of a disservice to our nation than does Nader, those who will support him simply because he is the only candidate in this race who speaks the truth and represents our own views.You know those views, they used to be those of the democratic party before the DLC silenced the progressive wing of that party and made it into a shallow copy of the GOP.

For anyone with a modicum of reason and inquisitiveness:

Votenader.org

[LoZoccolo]

34. All that shit still isn't enough.

Kerry has refused to consider bringing American troops home from Iraq.

His plan is to get them all out within four years. Anything else is irresponsible.

How will Nader bring the troops home by losing the election?

Kerry has refused to apologize for voting for the Patriot Act, for the invasion of Iraq, for the Homeland Security bill, remained rather silent on the abuses of NAFTA and GATT except for the shallowest and briefest of mentions and ,quite frankly ,his election means only exchanging Bush's masters for Kerry's ,same bullshit different package.

I guess the solution is to vote for someone who didn't even have that choice then. Unbelievable.

Same bullshit? Abortion (referred to by Nader as "gonadal politics")? Minimum wage? Veterans benefits? Offshoring? Unilateral invasions of other countries? Your assertion is bullshit. You lie.

[LoZoccolo]

36. P.S. Nader has lied before.

- There is little difference between the parties.
- He will take away more votes from Bush* than Kerry.
- Gore would have started the war too.

All lies.

[Beloved Citizen]

37. Your litany of petty complaints...

...seems so trite when compared with the looming threat posed by another 4 years of George W. Bush.

Unless, of course, you feel there is some advantage to your cause in helping Bush win again. You do know that there were leftish political types in 1930s Germany who actually believed a Hitler victory would further their cause, right? That they actually believed once the 'masses' saw the Fuhrer in action they would flee to the left out of fear and revulsion?

I certainly hope you're not that kind of insane idiot.

Look, if you don't like Nader bashing, pick up your indignant fanny and endless trivial gripes and take them to another blog. Even the most cursory reading of the DU boards should tell you that The Fly is held by most here in about the same level of esteem as Richard Nixon.

[mzmolly]

23. Ignoring *my* party. Are you aware that Ralph Nader is dividing the Green

Party?

Nader is swinging *swing* states to Bush. He knows it, we know it, and he doesn't care who he takes down in the process.

http://dontvoteralph.org/start.htm

For a comparison to Kerry/Bush check out what the Green Party is saying here: http://changein04.com/



Support a progressive who is a member of the Green Party.

http://www.votecobb.org

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Snoggera]

27. Where the hell did that come from?

Personalizing a response to a post with a jab at welfare?

I won't get involved in the middle, but will say that for the truth of this election, I will go anywhere other than Votenader.org.

[mzmolly]

31. I caught the personal response and jab too.

:shrug:

Some people prefer to take the *low ground* I guess?

[mdmc]

28. well well well

Nader voters can vote for whomever they want. Its a shame that the dems can't sell them on defeating bush, but I'm not going to dwell on it.
Half of eligible voters don't vote; Dems would be better served by courting those non voters. Greens wouldn't vote for Kucinich if he was a Dem, so give up on pushing Kerry on them and GOTV!

on edit: spell checked for your convenience.

[mzmolly]

30. None of my sisters went to harvard, but I'm glad you remember me.

:eyes: They actually went to the local technical college with the help of pell grants, GSL's and child care. Which by the way, they would not be able to do today under the Bush admin, with the pell grant and child care cuts.

Gosh, Last time I checked calling someone a Neocon on DU was a personal attack. Pity you can't have a conversation witout getting so personal. I could return the favor, but I'll refrain out of respect for the rules of the board.

Also, *I* never said Nader was the antichrist. I have said he's a hypocritical egomanical windbag though. I have also said he busted unions, owns stock in the defense industry (and the very corporations he lobbies against) etc.

Most importantly though, he is a political opponent of the Democratic party.

In my world Nader is exercising his constitutional rights of free speech and electioneering, nothing more nothing less.

Gosh, in *my world* it looks much the same. In your world do Nader's opponents also have the same constitutional rights to "free speech" ??

Tell me, in your world:

Is George Bush President?
Is he a good president or a bad one?
Is this a close election or not?
Is Nader running in swing states where he could effect the outcome of the election?
Is the sky blue?

[LoZoccolo]

35. P.S. what is your plan?

1. What do you want to achieve and...
2. ...how will voting for Nader achieve it?

Give us these two things or shut up.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. Nader will harm abortion rights if successful, BUT

We have neocons running both parties. Will Marshall is a PNAC signartory and Kerry's speech writer.

[louis c]

33. I consider Nader

a bigger enemy than Bush. At least Bush knows he's against us, Nader pretends he doesn't hurt us. After 2000, even a nit-wit knows better, and Nader is no nit-wit.

[Beloved Citizen]

38. Well said.

What is of concern to me here is the possibility that those supporting Nader would actually welcome a second Bush term in office, seeing it as an opportunity to build their party at the expense of the welfare of the entire country.

That, to me, is the big difference between the Democrats and Nader supporters. While Democrats are working hard to set things right in America, Nader supporters see a further disintegration as being to their benefit. They are an extremely negative force vis-a-vis the interests of the avg working American.