Nightline: Kerry is the "Manchurian Candidate"

[wurzel]

Last night's Koppels program totally exceeded itself. It suggested that since Kerry had actually killed a Viet soldier, and would not talk about it, he is possibly a ticking time bomb. I haven't seen that kind of anti-Democrat reporting since the hatchet job PBS Frontline did on Al Gore. It was a sophisticated version of what Bush did to McCain. I don't remember seeing these kind of innuendos used when Bush Sr. was the "war hero", and Clinton was the "draft dodger".

[Nevernose]

1. He's a time bomb? Because he has good taste?

Because he has the good taste to NOT go on TV and give graphic descriptions of killing Asian peasants?

[Sandpiper]

2. I've never met a combat veteran

Who liked to talk about the things they did in combat. People with even a shred of humanity don't take pride in the fact that they killed another human being.

[wurzel]

6. That is true of my own family members.

And they quickly put anyone down who does want to discuss it. They NEVER talk about it. Why should Koppel think that strange? Even he isn't usually that moronic.

[Sandpiper]

11. I had six great uncles who fought in WWII

And not a single one of them liked to talk about their experiences.

I guess that made them ticking time bombs.

[hlthe2b]

14. The "Greatest Generation" has only now started to talk....

a point that has been lauded by the press. I hope that they will jump down the throats of those (who never served in combat) and who make these insinuations...

[Piperay]

32. My father was in WWII

and when I was a kid I once asked him if he killed anyone during the war and he wouldn't say anything at all. Later my mother got after me and told me not to ever asked him something like that again, that it was too upsetting for him to discuss. I never ever asked again and to this day I don't know any details.

[KittyWampus]

39. My Ex's Brother Who Was In Viet Nam Wouldn't Say ANYTHING

except how bad the villages smelled- from using fish oil.

[bklyncowgirl]

65. The guys who did it don't talk about it--true.

Everyone who knew my father pretty much assumed that he had a desk job in WWII--my mother included.

After his death, we were doing a display at work relating to D-Day. Even though Dad served in the Pacific and in the occupation of Japan, I brought in his old uniform for the display to sort of liven it up--figuring no one would know the difference anyway. One day, an old guy was looking at it. He obviously knew how to read the ribbons and called me on the fact that the wearer of that uniform hadn't been anywhere near Europe. He then went on to tell me that my father had been in the Phillipines, which I knew, and that he had a citation for valor in combat.

Listening to Dad talk about his military experiences, you would have believed that he spent the entire war playing baseball and golf and churning out publicity releases for McArthur. Now I wonder where he really got that Japanese sword and parachute he had.

[trogdor]

3. What about all those people who fought in WW II?

Were any of them ticking time bombs? WTF does Koppel mean by that, anyway?

Fecking Disney network.

[Divernan]

4. So when did Bush Sr. talk about killing his two crew members

when he panicked and bailed out of his plane in WWII? Guess he was a ticking time bomb while he was president!

[wurzel]

25. I can't remember any mention of Bush Sr. having crew members.

I had always assumed he was flying solo. It is amazing what we don't know.

[Art_from_Ark]

55. Here you go

Bu$h bails, crew lost:

http://www.usvetdsp.com/story46.htm

[wurzel]

66. Like father. Like son.

Bush bails out leaving his living crew members to die, and then is proclaimed a "hero"? And the media helps these guys with criticizing Kerry? I have to say it over and over again. If it wasn't for the internet we would be totally ignorant. Thanks.

[Divernan]

5. So when did Laura Bush talk about killing her old boyfriend

when she ran him down with her car? Another ticking timebomb, right in the White House?

[Sequoia]

8. Details on Laura...I keep hearing about here

but don't know the story. Gotta link? Thanks.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. Laura Bush ran a stop sign and killed another teen, story links here...

You have to read the whole fluff pieces to find the part about the auto accident.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/07/earlyshow/leisure/books/main591951.shtml

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/e2147.htm

[salib]

13. Even Freepers talk about it!

See:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3910b26e685a.htm

If you can stand it.

Or try this one:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/07/earlyshow/leisure/books/main591951.shtml

[Divernan]

17. Seventeen year old Mike Douglas on 11/6/63

died when Laura ran a stop sign and struck his car. One report says he was thrown from his car and broke his neck. Others have given you some links. Also, just do an advanced search on Google for "Laura Bush" boyfriend and car.

I recall that as Governor, Bush had her state record expunged on the matter.

[Cocoa]

7. yep

ABC News knows that Bush's service records are about to become an issue again, so they need to start trashing Kerry's record.

:puke:

[wurzel]

9. Did you see that program? It was a disgrace!

n/t

[acmavm]

10. What was Eisenhower? A nuetron bomb? He didn't kill anyone did he?

.

[wurzel]

15. Eisenhower led the charge on the ww1 "Bonus" Vets.

He, with Patton and McCarthur routed the WW1 vets who came to Washington during the depression to get their bonus. Didn't seem to bother them any. Nor the media.

[Art_from_Ark]

54. Eisenhower authorized the execution of Pvt. Eddie Slovik

the first (and only) American serviceman to be executed for desertion since the Civil War. And the thing is, Slovik didn't actually desert-- he got separated from his unit, and ended up with another Allied unit.

[LTR]

68. Partly true

He latched on with a Canadian unit, then deserted, and turned himself in to his old unit.

http://www.28-110-k.org/sad_story_of_private_eddie_slovi.html

During training, Slovik earned the reputation of being a good-natured buddy and learned to fire a rifle (which he hated) and other weapons. He arrived in France on August 20, 1944. Five days later he was assigned to Company G, 109th Infantry Regiment, 28th Infantry Division.

En route to the front, when his group of replacements was fired on, they stopped and dug in. Somehow Slovik and a friend became separated from the others, who moved on in the night. The two men soon came upon the encampment of the Canadian 13th Provost Corps and "joined" it, staying until October 5. Slovik finally joined Company G on October 8, but he deserted about an hour later, ignoring the pleas of a friend not to leave.

A day later, Slovik voluntarily surrendered to an officer of the 28th Infantry Division, handing him a signed confession of desertion. He went on to state in that document that he would run away again if he had "to go out their ." The officer warned the private that his written confession was damaging evidence and advised him to take it back and destroy it. When Slovik refused to do so, he was confined in the division stockade.

On October 26, the division judge advocate, Lt. Col. Henry P. Sommer, offered Slovik a deal under which the court-martial action would be dropped if he would go back to his unit. Slovik refused. As a result, on November 11, 1944, he was tried and convicted of desertion, although he pleaded not guilty at the trial.

Because of the seriousness of the charge, the court voted by secret ballot three different times. The sentence of death was voted unanimously each time. It is important to note that Slovik's police record could not have influenced the court, which did not have that information.


It was a tragedy that he was executed. Utterly disgusting. He should not have been executed.


He was executed as an example, and to prevent further desertions.

[gauguin57]

16. pointless show

The show was pointless. Lots of speculation, nothing concrete. LAME!

Here's a discussion of the show from last night.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1835845

[wurzel]

23. Thanks for the link. I'm glad I'm not the only one unhappy.

I just didn't like the "speculation".

[markses]

18. You're nuts; it was a 20 minute Kerry campaign commercial

n/t

[wurzel]

21. I suggest you look at it from the point of view of some one who is

not a Kerry supporter, and has bought into the relentless Bush propaganda. I was very disturbed by the underlying tenor of that program.

[markses]

26. No...those are the folks who will like Kerry because of it

The whole supposed "Manchurian Candidate" undertone is only visible to the most paranoid elements of the pro-Kerry camp. Everyone else saw: This guy was in a war and doesn't like to talk about it. This is itself a commonplace in American culture (the vast divide between those who were there and those who weren't). Your imagination and expectation of negativity is running away with you. That was a fucking glowing report on Kerry. Glowing.

[wurzel]

41. I am not particularly pro Kerry. Just anti-Bush

I did not expect Koppel to be negative. But I did not like that program one bit. Under all that "glow" was a black hole.

[mainer]

19. I heard another viewer say it was a GREAT plug for Kerry!

I didn't see it, but a Dem friend of mine did and she said Kerry's former crewmates were also on the show and they backed him up 100% and said that his quick thinking saved all their lives. She thought Kerry's image came out very, very favorably.

[wurzel]

20. It did for me. But that was not the intention of Koppel.

They reiterated over and over again how doing what Kerry did "has a lifetime effect on a man". And no one knows what that may be. It was sophisticated but the suggestion clearly was there.

[markses]

27. The suggestion was all in your head...it was a glowing report

Very positive for Kerry.

[The Magistrate]

30. What On Earth, Sir, Makes You Think You Know All Mr. Koppel's Mind?

The program was splendid tribute to Sen. Kerry, and perceived as such by most any who saw it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[wurzel]

42. I don't know what is in Koppel's mind.

Just what the underlying theme of his program was. It was about the negative, and possilble dangerous, subconscious effect of war on a man's thinking now, AND IN THE FUTURE. We have no access now to the program so there is no real way I can demonstrate what I found so disturbing. Usually I am a fan of Koppel which is why I generally watch Nightline.

[The Magistrate]

61. And Yet, Sir

You have stated above your certainty what his intention was. Clearly, many people received a different impression of the thrust and effect of the program than you did. This suggests to me that you gained from the program what you brought to it, so to speak, and that you yourself find it worrisome that a man has been to war, and killed in war.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[wurzel]

67. Your pseudo psychology is way off the mark.

In what has happened over the last dozen years I don't think I would vote for any one who was not in the military. Apparently I couldn't possibly know what was in Koppel's mind even tho I actually watched the program. (One of the few it seems). You apparently know what is in my mind and you don't know me from Adam.

[markses]

28. It WAS a great plug for Kerry; the perception of negativity is nonsense

A very very favorable broadcast for Kerry.

[ThomWV]

22. Send Them A Damned E-Mail

I just did. When you see this sort of shit you need to complain, and you need to get others to complain as well. Tell them you are boycotting their network - THEN DO IT - because of shit like this.

Here, go to the bottom right corner: http://abcnews.go.com/Sections/Nightline/

[tom_paine]

24. Imperial Pravda is getting desperate

And there is NOTHING more DANGEROUS than a cornered Nazi!

[Snoggera]

29. If so

Think of the number of ticking time bombs being created in Iraq these days. Watch out society!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What fools.

tick tick tick

[Neecy]

31. In my experience...

It's the ones who DO talk about it who are the 'ticking time bombs'.

I've known a lot of Vietnam vets, and this story isn't uncommon - I was having a casual conversation with an aviation mechanic one day while waiting for a flight pushback. All of a sudden, it's like the guy went into a trance and he started telling me about blowing off heads of Vietnamese in fishing boats with his rifle. He snapped out of it after a few minutes, but it was creepy and very sad.

Sounds like Kerry dealt with it and moved on. He's one of the lucky ones.

[Piperay]

33. Guess it is all in the 'ear of

the listener', I actually thought it was a good piece and should help Kerry. :shrug:

[jackstraw45]

34. Saw it...thought the piece showed Kerry is a positive light

They showed ALL his surviving crewmates from that day praising his actions saying he saved them from an RPG attack.

I thought it was very revealing and only increased my respect for Kerry.

Anyone else who actually watched the program agree?

[NYCGirl]

36. I think it was very positive, and it showed Kerry as a hero

to his crew. I was very impressed.

[isa-lee]

40. I thought it portrayed Kerry in a positive light, too.

I felt it made him look like a strong wartime leader and a powerful clutch player. He looked big and presidential to me. I didn't see the 'ticking time bomb' subtext. I taped it, maybe I will watch again, see if I change my mind.

[kaitykaity]

43. Welcome to DU, isa-lee!!

Happy posting!! :toast:

[isa-lee]

53. Thanks!

I'll consider myself welcomed!
:toast:

[wurzel]

45. I'm glad you taped it. I wish I had. Watch it again

Listen for the comments about a man never being the same again having killed another human being. Especially the comments of the so-called "reporters".

[jackstraw45]

50. Who here has killed a person to save themselves?

PLEASE don't answer that. :)

I certainly haven't but I'm sure if I was placed in Senator Kerry's situation that day in 1969, I wouldn't be the same person either.

War isn't pretty but I don't think a changed veteran equates to a loose trigger.

I still feel the piece was respectful, for the most part, of Senator Kerry. It was nice to see his crewmates interviewed and allowed to freely explain the situation.

[Crazy8s]

49. crazy8s

I thot the program was quite positive. It brought up Kerry's heroism in Viet Nam and helped explain his actions against the war upon his return home. The viewpoints of his crew mates were excellent, as well. Nothing there that screamed 'time bomb!' that I could see.

[wurzel]

69. n/t

n/t

[VOX]

35. John Kerry is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being..

I've ever known in my life...:evilgrin: (Reference to the 1962 movie, and a joke!)

The notion of Kerry being a ticking time bomb is utterly absurd.

[mitchum]

58. LOL!!!

nicely done:)

Yes, it is absurd

[radwriter0555]

37. Welcome to Nazi America...

The propoganda is heating up.

[markses]

38. Did you see the piece?

I hope you're not taking wurzel's word for it, cuz plenty of folks thought it was a damn fine piece for Kerry.

[wurzel]

44. "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"

That program was a Trojan Horse. For all the positives I just wish it had never been aired.

[markses]

48. Whatever

I'll leave you to your fears.

[wurzel]

56. I have no "fears".

I just suspect the motivation of that program.

[markses]

64. Like I said

Whatever.

[Mountainman]

46. Walking time bomb is what they call a lot of us when we got home

I tell this story but most don't believe it. When I got back from Vietnam I didn't dare put on an employment application that I was a Vietnam veteran. To do so was a sure way of not getting the job because they were afraid that some day you would go crazy and start killing people.

[wurzel]

47. Perhaps this is a generational thing.

I'm old enough to remember the kinds of attitudes to Vietnam vets in the sixties and seventies which is why I reacted to Koppel's program the way I did.

[isa-lee]

52. Maybe.....

I was just a baby during the Vietnam war, so I have no personal memory of that time. So when I see portrayals of Kerry's service in Vietnam, I see a great American hero. But I know from reading that returning Vietnam vets were not always treated with the respect they deserved.

[wurzel]

57. Just watch the program you taped with all this in mind.

See what you think then.

[ConsAreLiars]

51. Any source? I searched and just found gopusa.com, gop.com and

Counterpunch but no Nightline link.

Interestingly, the reich-wing fanatic who's been stalking Kerry used that very same phrase to describe McCain in '92. McCain called the man "one of the most despicable people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter." http://www.independentsforkerry.org/info/index.php?category_id=1123

[NashVegas]

59. Are You Sure He Didn't Mean the "Maruchen Ramen Candidate?"

*ducks*

[Bucky]

60. No, it's the "Macho-Man Rental Candidate"

*gooses*

[PROGRESSIVE1]

62. No it wasn't!!! It only questioned what Kerry might feel. Koppel...

did not in ANY way make ANY claim which would make Kerry to be a "nut case".

It was good for Kerry!

[nolabels]

63. Them little red dots again

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Civilian deaths in “noble” Iraq mission pass 10,000
We need a tribunal to administer justice for the victims

February 7th 2004

1. Introduction

As many as 10,000 non-combatant civilian deaths during 2003 have been reliably reported so far as a result of the US/UK-led invasion and occupation of Iraq . These reports provide figures which range between a minimum of 8,235 and a maximum of 10,079 as of Saturday 7th February 2004.

IBC's experience of data-gathering throughout the preceding year shows that reports of additional deaths often continue to emerge many months after the event. Many civilian deaths are almost certainly, as yet, unreported, and even the current IBC maximum cannot be considered to approach a complete and final toll of innocent deaths during 2003.

This maximum figure of reported civilian deaths, derived from reports filed by correspondents in the field, is therefore likely to be only a transitory milestone in the catalogue of tragedies endured by Iraqis as a direct result of the US/UK invasion and subsequent military occupation. Iraq Body Count calls for the immediate establishment of an independent international tribunal to establish the circumstances of as many civilian deaths as possible, and to determine an appropriate and just level of compensation for the victims of US/UK aggression and negligence.
(snip)
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial_feb0704.htm
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm