Do you agree with this analogical example?

[louis c]

Bush and his administration made a case for war in Iraq at a time when all of us were still shaken by the events of 9/11.

His deception was credible, after all, they were in command of all the agencies and groups that would know. Madman, weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological, willing to use them, nuclear, mushroom cloud, blah, blah, blah, even Powell knows, imminent threat, bin Laden connection, life as we know it is at stake, blah, blah, blah, easy war, oil will pay, collapse like a house of cards, blah blah blah, liberators, etc. etc. etc.

Now I ask you, at the time, was I, or John Kerry an asshole for believing them. After all, they're supposed to know.

Here's my example. I go on vacation, and leave my brother, who I thought I could trust at the time, to watch my house while I'm away. He calls me after one day to tell me my house just burned down. I cut my vacation short, at considerable expense, and rush back. When I arrive, it turns out he's only kidding. Who's the asshole? Who deserves to get his ass kicked? Me or him?

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

1. Your parents.

:beer:

[louis c]

2. I was trying to make a point

but I may have missed the mark. I hope someone will get it, or I'm losing my touch.

[mongo]

4. Dude, I believed 'em too

I'm sorry to admit it. But Powell on CNN showing us "mobile weapons labs" and all the other crap they snowballed us with got to me. They scared the crap out of me and I gave them the benefit of doubt.

You bet I'm pissed off NOW!

[Cornus]

5. Didn't get the analogy

Maybe it's me, or maybe you didn't make your point and have lost your touch.

[louis c]

9. In other words

you left someone in charge. They are in a position to know about a situation more than you do. They lie about a very important event and you believed them. It cost you considerably. Now they tell you you're the asshole for believing them in the first place. How pissed should you be?

[realisticphish]

3. makes sense to me

he is DEFINATELY off the Christmas card list

[louis c]

7. That reminds me, (repeat)

what ever happened to that flag?

[iamjoy]

6. There's A Saying

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
So the first time, Kerry gets a free pass. But was that the first time?

Of course, according to Dubya it's
"Fool me once, shame on....you. B-duh, uh, duh uh fool me can't get fooled again."

[Eric J in MN]

8. How do people who voted against the war fit in?

Congressman Dennis Kucinich voted against the war.

Senator Mark Dayton voted against the war.


I didn't find Powell convincing.

Colin Powell didn't explain where the supposedly incriminating audiotape was from, and so it didn't prove anything to me.

[louis c]

10. On this issue, they're smarter than me

and Kerry. But it could have gone the other way, too.

[welshTerrier2]

11. total nonsense

there were hundreds, maybe thousands, of posts on DU that disclosed an endless array of very credible information about why we shouldn't invade Iraq ...

the weapons inspectors were not given enough time ... the rush to war was unnecessary because Saddam had never attacked the U.S. ... Scott Ritter and others said there was no credible evidence of WMD's ... the PNAC crowd was pushing this war for their own, insane ideological reasons ... the U.N. and our major allies did not support the invasion ... Wilson stated that the Niger memo was a fraud ... the IAEA did not believe the aluminum tubes would be used for weapons production ... there was a veritable chasm between Saddam's secular state and the fundamentalists that Bin Laden respresents ...

and most important of all, bush is a lying sack of shit ...

so no, bush's deception was not credible ... and those who believed him were gullible fools ... sorry, but that's the way it was ...

[louis c]

13. We may have been gullible fools

but there were a lot of us. And after being made a fool of, I'm angrier about it than you. In my analogy, if my wife stayed and enjoyed the rest of her vacation, and I believed the deception, I'd be way more pissed at my brother than she would. That's the point. She (or you) are smarter, I'm angrier.

[Slickriddles]

14. Excellent sig, I was singing that tune myself a day or two ago.

Soon even a tall man it'll be over his head...

[lapfog_1]

12. I never believed that crap

even when Powell was showing photos of mobile bio weapons labs...
I kept thinking... yeah, but How Do You Know that it's a bioweapon
lab?

When it came up for discussion, I would voice doubt, but I got
shouted down by co-workers... to the point that I quit voicing
my doubts (to my disgrace).

Powell should still resign.

And your brother is an asshole.

[walldude]

15. If you live in fear

The terrorists have won. I never believed all those things either. I was saddend by how many Dems were suckered into voting for the war. I mean what the hell ever happened to Question Authority? I was even more saddened previously when there was only one man with the balls to stand against the Patriot Act. Don't remember his name but he should have been the nominee for the Dems this year. He was the only man in Washington to stand up for the Constitution.

[Eric J in MN]

18. Russ Feingold was the only Senator to vote against the PATRIOT Act

Feingold is running for re-election:

http://www.russfeingold.org/

[Nevernose]

16. I had this argument with a Freeper coworker the other day

Me: I can prove that the administration was lying about WMDs, and they're lying about "intelligence failures" now.

Her: Oh yeah, how?

Me: Did I or did I not tell you two years ago that there were no WMDs in Iraq? I managed to pick that up from reading the fucking newpaper.

Her: Oh yeah? Well, do you believe everything you read?

Me: Uhhh...I was right, wasn't I? There weren't any weapons, were there?

Her: They moved them to Syria or Iran.

Me: You're two spin-machine talking points back, dear. Now they're saying that there weren't any WMDs, and it's the CIA fault.

[louis c]

17. My response to 'They moved the weapons"

bullshit is, "what the fuck good are WMD or any weapons, if you don't use them when you're invaded?". What the fuck good are they to Saddam now? What's he saving them for, the next invasion? What a stupid argument but I hear it from them all the time.

[Longhorn]

19. For me, your analogy doesn't hold for this reason. . .

I wouldn't have trusted your brother in the first place! He had already given me too many reasons not to trust him. However, since you say that you did trust him (and you should have been able to!), then of course you're even more angry!

Okay, back to our unfortunate reality . . .

I never believed that the WMD's existed and I didn't trust the other so-called intelligence coming out of the Bush administration. And I generally tend to be a trusting person!

I hate to say it but I believe the Democrats who voted in support of this war thought it would be political suicide to do otherwise because at that time, the majority of the country was in support of the war. I think they believed they had the political cover of claiming that they trusted that the administration was telling the truth, which is exactly what they're saying now.

I still have a hard time being as enthusiastic about Kerry as I was about Dean for this very reason. But he's my only choice -- and it was decided long before the Texas primary -- so Yellow Dog Democrat that I am, he'll get my vote in November.

[sendero]

20. There is nothing...

...wrong with your analogy other than it lacks subtlety. Anyone who doesn't get it doesn't want to get it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. I never believed a word they said.

Not one friggin' word. It feels so good to be right. Remember all those anti-war protesters? THEY were right too. Millions and millions of them. I wouldn't call you an asshole. Just a trusting soul. Remember this....NEVER, EVER, EVER BELIEVE ANYTHING THIS ADMINISTRATION SAYS. THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. After the Florida debacle, I trust NOTHING those people say or do and neither should you. They're all LIARS!

For your little scenario above, your brother needs to have his ass kicked and sent to bed with no dinner! ;)

[Mechatanketra]

22. Sigh. It's a flawed example.

First of all, the deception wasn't that credible. I think the median elapsed turnaround time for debunking any statement made by the Administration is two days. The only case for war that wasn't provably a lie at the time of the war vote was "If you don't agree with us, we'll call you un-American and say you side with terrorists."

But ultimately, it comes to this: I won't say you're an asshole for believing them. But if you, like John Kerry, still don't challenge the war -- not just the conduct, but its existence -- then 'asshole' doesn't begin to cover it.

I've yet to hear Kerry say the war was a bad thing to do -- just that it's been a thing done badly. So long as that's true, he's not quite the innocent dupe your example portrays.