The most damaging aspect of F 9/11 is its humor.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

It mocks the president, makes him look silly. And it accomplishes this by simply RUNNING CLIPS OF HIM. Laughter abounded where I saw the movie. How could one not laugh at at chimpy?

And that's the most damaging: can you really vote for someone you laugh at? Look at how Moore ends the movie. There's an image for you--and we leave on another laugher.

Most people aren't going to buy the Saudi connections, war for profits, etc. It may make them question the administration, and that's good, but I doubt they'll buy it.

But conjoin doubt and mockery, and you've got a winning ticket. Just ask Howard Dean. The moment the pundits could make fun of him openly was the moment he was toast.

Think of the laughter you're listening to in the theatre. It's based on absolute mockery. It's not laughter at irony (like the scenes when the make-up is being applied); we're laughing at the level of dipshititude on display. Ashcroft singing his "Eagle" song simply allows Ashcroft to mock himself. "Now watch this drive." Priceless. Talking about one's dog rooting out an armadillo; are you kidding me? "Fool me once . . ."

The humor throughout this film will be the nail in the coffin. I wish every dem. talking head would point this out. Change the subject and keep saying, "Americans will have a hard time voting for someone who is, above anything else, revealed to be a joke, an absolute mockery of the office of the President."

[Webster Green]

1. Thats why it is ridiculous to call it a pack of lies.....

A lot of the film is news footage. Images of the idiots being themselves. The images speak for themselves. That is why the wing-nuts are so afraid. Anyone who says the film is a bunch of lies, probably hasn't seen it.

[trumad]

2. I disagree

I went with several non-political folks yesterday and they were stunned and the Saudi connections... They bought it big time and they were pissed.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

5. I'm glad they were stunned.

That's good. And they should be.

I went with a friend from Yemen, and he was a little put off by the inherent racism in the collage of the Middle Easterners kissing Bush et al in that part of the film. He thought Moore spread it a little too thick. He liked the movie a lot, but didn't think too highly of that part. Just made him a little nervous, which, he argued, may be the best argument for why the Saudis wanted their people to get out of here (though he agrees with the ENTIRE premise of the film, and is an ardent LIHOPper).

All of this is neither here nor there.

[emulatorloo]

7. Yes! If there is 'no connection' why did the SECRET SERVICE show up

when Moore was standing outside the Saudi embassy?

It would make sense for DC police to show up and check Moore out, but SECRET SERVICE? That was one of the really chilling moment for me.

[King Of Paperboys]

3. Bullshit

There are jokes in Schindler's List. There are jokes in The RA Expedition. It's a storytelling convention going back to Aeschuylus and Sophocles. You can't make the whole thing heavy, or you'll lose your audience in 3 minutes.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

6. Yeah, the humor in Schindler's List is quite similar to F 9/11.

Please. If you think the humor in this movie was simply for levity, well, then, you should probably go back and reread all of those nifty Greek dramatists (and I don't think "storytelling" is used too often in the critical discourse of drama studies either). I think the humor in F 9/11 may be more than providing us with breaks in the seriousness.

[King Of Paperboys]

9. You may have a point.

I suspect you'll find it atop your head.

"Storytelling" is ALWAYS the first and last criterion of drama. Your endeavor to undermine a perfectly legitimate word demonstrates your ignorance of the art. Get back to me when you've spent 4 years in an undergraduate program, 2 years earning your Master's degree, then earned a living in the art. Until then, you're an amateur, and your ignorance of the very nomenclature of my art is laughable.


I didn't mean to suggest that the humor in this film was "simply" for levity; one would have to be ignorant or willfully blind to attribute such a statement or sentiment to me. My point was that humor is NOT NECESSARILY inappropriate. You can critique an artist's work by saying that he might have used a dash less here, or a smidge less there, but to suggest, as the OP did, that humor is altogether inappropriate, is... well, altogether inappropriate.

Mr. Moore used humor to make a point. Several points. He did it quite effectively. Without humor, the film would have been utterly unwatchable.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

10. I think you need to reread my original post.

I was applauding Moore's use of humor, not attacking it.

As far as using "storytelling" with reference to drama criticism, well, your credentials aside, I'm not convinced. I don't often see "storytelling" ever used as a critical term when scholars analyze drama. Perhaps you're speaking from a theatrical perspective? As far as dramaturgy is concerned, I don't think "storytelling" is a critical term--though this doesn't mean that it's not a descriptive term within the theatre. I think we're coming at the word from two totally different perspectives: you're an artist(e) who practices his craft; I like to follow literary criticism which writes about the craft of others. And in lit. crit., they don't often use "storytelling" when referring to drama. That's all I meant.

It's really neither here nor there about your use of "storytelling"; I've obviously hit a nerve with you somehow (perhaps you couldn't finish a Ph.D.?). How about this: I concede your point about "storytelling." I will bow down to your Master's degree. Do you wear the hood while you type?

Finally, I'm not sure why you wrote "Bullshit" as your first response to my post. In this post, you write: "My point was that humor is NOT NECESSARILY inappropriate." Well, that was my point all along. So you either have a reading comprehension problem or you agree with my bullshit. Your choice.

Forgive me for questioning the reading comprehension of someone as obviously as educated as yourself.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. And you need to get back to us when you decide to leave your insults....

...at home.

Everyone here on DU is entitled to an opinion, but you lost any credibility you might have had by going after another poster on a personal level.

Additionally, IMHO, the level of education you profess to have has little or no bearing on your ability to think and act on that thinking. I've known quite a few successful people with little or no formal education that had tons of common sense and the willingness to act when other more educated people sat on their hands.

Rethink your approach before you post in the future...you might find your opinions more acceptable.

[nostamj]

4. humor is very powerful!

from my press release:

We have found the WMDs (Words of Mockery and Derision) and will unleash them in July!

THE QUESTION W REVUE, an evening of political cabaret, will begin performances at NYC’s legendary Duplex Cabaret Theatre on July 12th with a special benefit performance for Military Families Speak Out (www.mfso.org), a support organization for military personnel and their families.

if you're in the NYC area... details are here:

www.questionw.com

we're kinda sorta F911 - the Musical!



PEZ graphic is my DU's own mopaul and yes, used with permission!

[TexasSissy]

8. I liked the Bonanza part!

Dum-de-dum-dum-dum-de-dum-dum-dummmm-dummmm! Blair was even part of the Bonanza family! Funny. Very funny.

[supernova]

11. Judicious use of music + * clips = in camera stupidity

"Cocaine" LOL!

"Dragnet"

And Bonanza, all of it was just cool!

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

12. The music was awesome.

Where I watched it, I don't think many got the irony of the theme from "The Greatest American Hero" when chipmy landed on the aircraft carrier.

[doni_georgia]

14. The theater in Atlanta I was in was rolling in the aisles during that

scene. The one that got me the most was when Chimpy fired the gun and said, "Aren't you going to say good shot?" Was like a command - how dare you people not toss me a treat when I perform my monkey tricks!

[nostamj]

19. theme from "Last American Hero"....

Look at what's happened to me,
I can't believe it myself.
Suddenly I'm up on top of the world,
It should've been somebody else.

the last line says it ALL.

discussion of music in F911 here:

F911: Moore's Use of Music

[TrustingDog]

22. The Greatest American Hero Question... back in the day...

Am I recalling this correctly?
Not too long after Reagan got shot... a tv series called 'The Greatest American Hero' was aired - and the stars real name was Hinckley (a blond young man). That always made my antennaes twitch a bit. have no idea why.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

23. In fact, they changed the lead character's name.

His name was John Hinckley (played by William Katt), but when Regan was shot, the series' writers changed his name.

I can't for the life of me remember what they changed it to. Obviously, they kept his first name and changed the last.

[TrustingDog]

24. thanks for the info. n/t

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

29. Let me correct the info. Sorry.

His name was Ralph Hinkley, not John; they didn't want ANY chance for confusion.

They changed his name to Ralph Hanley.

[Bluebear]

13. Art has to have tension & release....

The formal curve of the movie is perfection. You leave the theatre having learned a bunch and any comic relief that is there is meant to cleanse the palate of the viewer after viewing horror, not obliterate the message.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

15. I agree with you, but I've been thinking . . .

what if we reversed it? What if this was a post-modern tragic-comedy. Wasn't that the whole point of the opening "is this a dream" sequence? What if this whole movie is about the tragedy of this comedy we call the Bush presidency? He begins with laughs and ends with laughs. Everything else in between is tragic (see the hubris posts throughout DU--maybe King of Paperboys can educate and illuminate us all on the genre and history of tragedy).

The humor, it seemed to me, was more than just a break from the heaviness of the movie. The humor seemed to set a real foundation.

[BattyDem]

16. Mel Brooks said it best ...

He was talking about Hitler, but the words still ring true:

"If you stand on a soapbox and trade rhetoric with a dictator you never win. That's what they do so well; they seduce people. But if you ridicule them, bring them down with laughter – they can't win. You show how crazy they are."


Source of the quote, if you're interested:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/heroes/brooks.htm

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

17. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

We have a winner. I love it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. Charlie Chaplin did a satirical film about Hitler in 1940...

...called "The Great Dictator":

<http://www.clown-ministry.com/Resources/chaplin/the-great-dictator-chaplin.html>

Excerpt:

"Since Adolf Hitler had the audacity to borrow his mustache from the most famous celebrity in the world--Charlie Chaplin--it meant Hitler was fair game for Chaplin's comedy. (Strangely, the two men were born within four days of each other.) The Great Dictator, conceived in the late thirties but not released until 1940, when Hitler's war was raging across Europe, is the film that skewered the tyrant. Chaplin plays both Adenoid Hynkel, the power-mad ruler of Tomania, and a humble Jewish barber suffering under the dictator's rule. Paulette Goddard, Chaplin's wife at the time, plays the barber's beloved; and the rotund comedian Jack Oakie turns in a weirdly accurate burlesque of Mussolini, as a bellowing fellow dictator named Benzino Napaloni, Dictator of Bacteria. Chaplin himself hits one of his highest moments in the amazing sequence where he performs a dance of love with a large inflated globe of the world. Never has the hunger for world domination been more rhapsodically expressed. The slapstick is swift and sharp, but it was not enough for Chaplin. He ends the film with the barber's six-minute speech calling for peace and prophesying a hopeful future for troubled mankind. Some critics have always felt the monologue was out of place, but the lyricism and sheer humanity of it are still stirring. This was the last appearance of Chaplin's Little Tramp character, and not coincidentally it was his first all-talking picture. --Robert Horton --This text refers to the VHS Tape edition."

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

18. I'm interested in hearing about the clips run on these Sunday talk shows

and on the cable and network shows.

Moore puts these people in a bind: show the serious aspects of his movie and it will make people curious (and get out to see the movie); show the humorous clips (of chimpy being himself--unedited, unlike the other news outlets) and people will laugh at the dauphin.

"Now watch this drive." O.K.

[stlsaxman]

25. So far it's been all but ignored...

disgusting that NPR's Scott Simon and Leeanne Hansen (weekend edition Sat and Sun) said NOTHING. Guess word came down that PBS/NPR would lose it's funding if they did.

FOX News Sunday didn't mention it. This Whore w/ George Snuffelupaguss never
mentioned it.

[robbedvoter]

20. More used the Daily Show/Stewart dead pan well. BFEE invites it

They make it so very easy - the media whorses had to show restraint to avoid all the golden opportunities.

[pdmike]

21. I Absolutely Agree

I absolutely agree. Pointing up the humorous misdeeds of President Bush dovetails perfectly with my concept of who President Bush really is when I watch him giving a speech.

He does not appear effective to me when he is speaking. He appears defensive, paranoid, incompetent and apprehensive when he talks. The perfect subject for a humorous treatment in a file such as this.

And the perfect subject for being voted out of office in November.

pdmike

[Danieljay]

27. they may not buy the Saudi connections...but the war profits?

The footage of the corporate execs actually TALKING openly how much was to be made cannot be argued with by any person with half a brain.

I have a sister that lives in Texas who absolutely refuses to see this film because she has bought in to the "its fiction" nonsense. I've seen it twice already and haven't seen anything that takes any kind of leap to believe. Moore has done an excellent job at letting the facts speak for themselves. (Its my understanding the producers hired attorneys to check all the facts before supporting the film, and it can all be documented)

The clips of Condi and Collin Powell talking before 911 about how Sadam had no capacity to wage war and was no threat and then arguing FOR war a year later was very telling.

As far as Bush speak... well, Bush basically hung himself in this movie, all Moore had to do was run the clips.

I will agree with you..the humor was well done. I loved this movie..

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

30. The clips with Condi and Colin received snarls where I saw the film.

One person whispered "holy crap." Another, "they just lie."

Some people laughed out of disbelief.