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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 02:25 PM
Original message
Your Opinion? On why US citizens are often so cruel
Its a puzzlement to me, I want to chalk it up to a massive collective unconcious of fear, or adolescence, or a public that is angry and lied to and wont admit it to themselves...
Yesterday I saw another angry bumper sticker
"Lost Your Cat? Look Under my Tires"
It hit me that the messages many people send to others are cold hearted, mean, horrible, angry, vicious, like little kids on a playground screaming and hurling violent insults to each other..but these are supposedly adults!
Another I saw yesterday was a logo of a person pissing on the word "Anti Hunters"..then one that said "If you can read this Ill kick your ass" then another "99% bitch" and another "Wife and Dog missing, Reward for Dog"..

and on and on and on.
Where is the compassion? Where is the kindness? Where is the empathy? where is the gentle spirit? Where is the sweetness towards each other? Have we always been this mean? This cold hearted, this savage? These fear filled little kids who are having temper tantrums when we dont get our way or want to attack anyone who points our behaviour out to us? Like roving bands of yelling teenagers with raging hormones, we yell and holler and scream at each other or the rest of the world if we dont get our way..
I was in Europe, I did not see these people driving by me in loud vehicles giving me the middle finger , or telling people to FUCK OFF in restaurants and bars if they didnt like the service..
and I dont think all people are this mean...but there are so many of them...so so many...
Ive seen this behaviour as a mother....Its like millions of 4 year olds in adult bodies having temper tantrums because they arent getting their way...
I guess Im naieve...where is the compassion, the empathy, and the gentleheart.? whats happened to us...
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. well
I'm always threatening to "kick ass" in the DU but in real life I'm an extremely kind and compassionate person. I know what you mean though - I believe it mostly started with the decade of greed, the 80's. Suddenly, the ME ME attitude and I'V GOT MINE WHO CARES IF YOU GET YOURS became very fashionable. It's inreasing bigtime with the current dominance of ugly rightwing nuts in office, on TV, on the radio, etc.

Once you lose empathy with people on a basic level, it's not that big of a step to escalate to threats of violence or actual violence.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Most Americans have not experienced war
on their soil, first hand. Most Americans don't know what violence looks like. It's one of the least-honorable traits of human nature--when violence doesn't come to us, we (mostly men) go looking for it, some more than others. Hence professional sports like football and boxing.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
37. I agree, in addition to that:
I would say that the rest of the world, especially Europe which most of their history has been war. Very, Very, Very violent and bloody wars! They have seen the damage of war and do not want anymore of it!!! Unfortunatly most Americans have not learned from history so that is why I believe that Americans don't think to much about engaging in war.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. Frustration
We are a pluralistic society. Other societies are far more homogenous than we are (though this is changing). This pluralality has resulted in the necissity of a PostModern ethoes throughout. PostModernism attempts to enable different cultures to live side by side by mandated that none can demand they are right while all others are wrong. Thus it enables communication by disallowing outright negative attacks.

This works in many cases but over time interest in maintain dialog with different cultures becomes tiring and many simply drop out of the conversation. The longer this system is in place the more the isolation continues. Eventually you have the camps formed again and no communication while the social rejection of insisting of ones own correctness remains in place. Thus these already angry groups become even more frustrated with the defenders of the social system that keeps them from enforcing what they believe to be true.

This results in an increase of anxiety within the society and a decrease of connection with our fellow people in society. Thus tempers flair. Compassion wanes. Anger. Violence. Contempt.

This is a complex society. Most have enough trouble figuring out the twists and turns of their own particular set of values. Trying to figure out another system that took its participants a life time to learn is not easy. The solution is communication. Education. Compassion. True Human Nature.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. Face it...we're barbarians
If you can take something and get away with it, you do it. That's become the American way (and may have always been that way, to one degree or another).

We've had a social darwinist approach to life here for a long time -- really since our founding. Remember the Calvinists who had so much influence on the early United States? That influence has only grown. Material wealth indicates the blessing of God, even if you steal that wealth. I suppose 'getting away with it' means that God meant you to have it?

This concept of God and material blessings certainly doesn't lead to a lot of compassion, and that attitude influences everything we do. Even if you don't have that attitude yourself, if you were born and raised here, you've been immersed in it and have become desensitized to it (seen people give a nervous laugh in reaction to displays of utter cruelty? that's a defense mechanism).

And IMHO, that's the sick puppies we are today.

(I suppose I should sign this post 'Miss Anthrop', eh?...)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:51 AM
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shugah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. hey! we heard you the first time!
;-)

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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I'm using the Fleischer method...
I just keep repeating myself until the listeners are in a coma...

Seriously, I was trying to post right when DU slowed down a bunch, and I'm wondering if my browser (Chimera on OSX) decided to keep trying to send the post in all by itself. I only hit the button once.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Its a new feature of DU2
I had something similar happen the other day. I stutter clicked the send button and wound up posting two articles. I think you were posting when DU was just having some server problems and may have stuttered while recieving your post.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:51 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:51 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:51 AM
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Social Darwinism is inappropriate for social creatures
Survival of the fittest applies to species as a whole. Different species apply different tactics to achieve this goal. Humans are part of a social species. We work together to achieve great things.

The concept of Social Darwinism arose out of a misapplication of some forms of Objectivism. It better reflects the mentality of modern corporations. Having no biological drive to cooperate or for compassion they are a true representation of the net outcome of Social Darwinism. A truly barbaric struggle for the last crumb of power.

Unfortunately we here in the west have been duped by the Corporate entities. They have tried to foist their needs onto us as our needs. Many have fallen for this. But it is not our natural drive. Every thing we believe to be good derives from our basic instincts to be part of the solution. Part of the effort. To strive together to survive and perhaps make this a better world.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
12. Face it...we're barbarians (and we repeat ourselves!)
Edited on Thu Jul-10-03 11:54 AM by htuttle
HOLY COW!!!

I swear I only pushed 'post' once!
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. htuttle - Are you trying to say that you think we're barbarians?
I don't know what gave me this nutty idea - but I have a hunch that this, in so many words, is basically what you're trying to tell us! :-)
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Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. No!! No!!
That's not it at all!! Now go back and reread the messages!!
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Frederic Bastiat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bogus
The US does not have the monopoly on rudeness, every driven in Montreal? Taken the U-Bahn in Berlin? Or asked for directions in Marseilles?

And don't get me started on Vienna!
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. maybe bumper stickers are not representative
... of the true spirit of a country. i notice that your evidence seems to consist totally of bumper sticker slogans.

i wouldn't place so much importance on bumper stickers. a lot of those "kinder, gentler" sentiments whose absence you noted, probably don't make good bumper stickers. in the few words that you can put on a legible bumper sticker, it's hard to express empathy or virtue. it's a lot easier to express a nasty putdown. that fact would tend to skew your results.

and besides that, the most of the "mean, vicious" bumper stickers were probably intended as jokes. if you talked to the people whose cars bore those stickers, you'd probably find that they do not really feel that way.

that said, i also have to add that where i come from, there are an awful lot of bumper stickers that say, "don't attack iraq", "no war", "peace", etc.

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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I agree, but I am still concerned
about a mean spiritedness that seems to prevail..and under anger and mean spiritedness is ususally sadness and loneliness..
Could it be that people are terribly lonely, terribly afraid of losing what little pockets of security they thought they had, as they lose their jobs, families are torn apart, and underneath it all, they realize they have liars and evil people running the country, the very people many of them still back up and voted for? The Rush Limbaugh mentality, that vile anger that screams from not only their bumper stickers, but from their mouths when you drive by them with YOUR bumper sticker that says "Peace"..
Ive seen faces turn red, people cursing at me, for the word Peace?? What kind of sense does this make?
Yes, Im an old woman but Im still an idealist...I still want to believe that people are only this angry and mean because they are terrified and alone, and have no clue as to how to alleviate the sadness and horror they feel..I want to believe that they dont want to be this mean, but they know of no other way of living. I cant save the world, I can only be kind when I am in certain social situations...I can stand up and give someone a seat, I can help someone with their groceries, I can smile..
and I can hope the United States eventually grows up and starts behaving like adults, with compassion and empathy.
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bunnyhop Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. Hey man - Bumper stickers are jokes.
Why get mad over those???. Instead get mad at the loonies inside the vehicles that are speeding and driving drunk or whatever. They are gonna kill somebody and that's what should bother you. Same with the sick love affair the rw loons have with the 250 million guns in this country. Republiguns are violent haters and their love of guns and cars is the proof not some silly bumper sticker.
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shugah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. but why is cruelty funny?
:shrug:
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Humor
According to Mel Brooks tradgedy is when I get a splinter, comedy is when someone else falls through a manhole cover and dies.

Humor is an emotional release valve. It is oriented towards relieving stress and anxiety. When we percieve another being harmed and realise it is not us in danger it can be released emotionally as humor.

Some humor is not as dehumanising as others. It can make fun of situations of mild embarasment or oddities of society. In any case it typically arises from a conflict of some form or another and our own personal escape of it.

An interesting book to read that touches on the subject (though it is fiction) is Eric Idles, The Road to Mars. Remember a smile is the equivalent to baring our fangs and a laugh is a bark.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. That reminds me! The Stooges are on!
They gotta be on somewhere :shrug:
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bunnyhop Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Humor minus cruelty === puns
That's about the only humor that doesn't use cruetly. WTF - who cares?. They're just jokes anyway.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Okay, then add the guns to the list
the guns, the love of attacking others, the kick the shit out of people mentality that prevails in so many parts of the country...the kind of mentality that dragged a man behind a truck because he was black, or the kind that hung a gay man on a fence...
I see it more and more, more and more, maybe its just finally out in the open, and its always been there...and its encouraged..
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. It is the result of
cultures being isolated because of their inherant hatred. Our society does not allow for such ideas to be expressed freely. Thus they bottle them up and explode all at once. Any that give voice to hatred are revered by these people. Particularly if they can do it in a way that snubs its nose at the liberal guardians of society. The Neo-Cons have learned how to game the system as it were and give voice to their hatred and then complain they are being oppressed when objections are made about their stance.
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bunnyhop Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Hey man - I agree with that 100000%
Guns and 3 ton SUVs are the same thing. Sicko repugs buy them cause they are vicious terrorists at heart and enjoy endangering and killing other people.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. 'Cause it's "cool" to be cruel
Why do many folks think the bad guy in a movie is "cool"? How many of the folks who say the bad guy is "cool" actually want to be like that bad guy?

How do we make it "cool" to be the good guy?
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bunnyhop Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Villains have always been popular in fiction
Whether in books or movies. Nothing wrong with that. It's real life cruelty - as in actually killing and injuring people- that should bother us. That's what is so mind-boggling about this iraq war. Iraq has never done anything to the US and now we find out she didn't even have the capability to hurt us and yet all the repugs love to hear about the iraqi people being dismembered and burned alive by bush's bombs.
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qb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. Empathy is the key.
I don't have a link, but research has shown that empathy develops at a very early age, and requires a lot of nurturing human contact. If you miss this window, forget it. I think the stories of Smirk's cruelty to animals is an example of this.
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fshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
32. Fear and Guilt.
nt
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WEagle Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
33. I'm sure there are many reasons
just off the top of my head, though I have put some thought into it in the past,

-collective messages of TV/movies; force solves problems, revenge,retribution & retaliation (the 3 Rs) are viewed as admirable and heroic. Sadistic remarks presented in the form of jokes (see Arnold etc.)

-Factory farms where cruelty to animals is not seen as a problem. BTW, I've heard old time farmers who agree that modern methods of raising animals and killing them are cruel. Now think of how many violent criminals and serial killers have abused animals as children (hey AWOL, that includes frogs). IMH opinion our culture condones this cruelty. Perhaps there is a subtle message children get along with those "happy meals"

-The Death Penalty, It's been shown not to be a deterent many times over. Why is it still so popular? Another message for the children.(again AWOL, you are a shining example)

-The Argument Culture, TV shows that pick extreme rage filled people to "discuss" or "debate" subjects. Our culture is losing the ability to discuss things in a civil manner. RW talk radio that thrives on playing on the worst in human nature by presenting mean spirited personal attacks as discussion.

-The idea that a military that dwarfs all others is about "world peace". Certainly our children can see where our priorities really are. Again FORCE is presented as an answer to world problems.

-Racism, need I say more?

-Some forms of religious fundamentalism, Any world view that teaches that "others" are not equal in the eyes of God.

just a few thoughts, some of these things can be seen as symptoms as well as causes. The chicken or the egg? I think these things and a miriad of others act together in a viscious cycle.
One thing Kucinich has advocated that I think is completely right on is a Department Of Peace. Which brings to mind the importance of language.

-
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BigDaddyLove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
35. Cruelty is a uniquely American phenomena?
I would disagree and say that it's part of human nature; not a good part, but a part nonetheless.....if you want real cruelty check out the Roman Empire, or the Nazis, or the Taliban, or Pol Pot, etc. etc.

Why is there this insistance of labeling everything 'American' bad, ugly or cruel? Compartively speaking, we live in one of the most humane and enlightened societies in the history of the world.

Just because Americans don't all get along all the time doesn't make us barbarians.
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WEagle Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. no certainly not
it is a human problem. My concern is that we are not fostering compassionate values in our culture, in this country which I love. It's the direction and momentum of where we seem to be heading that I worry about.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
38. my thoughts
Some people are more emotionally equipped to handle freedom than others are. People emotionally equipped to handle freedom don't have a compulsion to lie, they don't get off on physically or verbally abusing people, they don't abuse people 's trust either. They don't intimidate, humiliate or belittle other people to force them to be silent. They don't act like greedy pigs at other's expense.

They police themselves from within. They have self control and confidence that comes with self awareness.

Some people don't desire to dominate relationships they are involved in. Some people are not afraid of losing, being wrong, looking 'weak' or having their own integrity doubted by others. Their personalities and personal flaws are less defended because the person accepts them and is aware of their own limits.

They are well aware of their own autonomy and power to choose right and wrong. They are self aware, self responsible, compassionate and secure. Some people know how to share what they have and are oriented towards cultivating right relationships with others. They know how to be assertive without being aggressive. Some people have enough self control to handle freedom of speech and free association.

Other people can't cope with freedom, and beg by their actions and abusive speech to be limited in their freedoms. They readily use the noble idea of freedom as a rallying cry for the right to abuse, use or mutilate others. They use freedom of speech as a cry for their own alleged right to verbally abuse others. They use freedom of association as a cry for the rights to use others to look "powerful" and con them with religion, scams or false hopes.

People with conduct disorders want the freedom to be intimidating, pushy, deceptive and cruel, and disrupt others' freedoms and relationships. They need to dominate and control social situations. These people can't handle freedom well. They are emotionally and socially screwed up.

They want to be free to abuse and manipulate other people around themselves and reduce other people's freedoms in the name of the bullies' sought-after authoritarian "freedom."

Tyrants, abusers, and bullies have problems with their own conduct in relationships of any kind. They are freedom killing, disruptive authoritarians, aggressive greedy and deceptive.

A person who is behaving like a totalitarian, a bully, a dominator, a user or abuser is INCOMPATIBLE with a society that values freedom and democracy.

Yet taking an absolutist stance on 'freedom' ... preserves the bully's "rights" to abuse, as well as our own rights to relate to whom we wish to, and to speak our minds.

It was said by the anthropologist who studied a very aggressive and abusive patriarchal tribe, the Yanomano, that in order for one segment of the population to dominate and know power over the "lessers," the other segment or "lessers" must be indoctrinated in cowardice.

It has always been this struggle in society ... what do we do with the bullies, exploiters and liars? Do we give them, rights and let them abuse our freedom ... so they can lie disrupt, foment hatred and abuse people? Or do we limit their damage? Restrict their freedoms?

In a small, close knit tribe where "leaders" have less power over the members and are held accountable by the force of close proximity to the populace, it might be possible to recognize problem people just by watching their habits. Then a population can purge its sociopaths and bullies by exile or by restriction, and maintain sociological health (that is, if bullies are not dominating the tribal government).

But in America, in this civilization gone insane, you can't just limit a bullies freedom without limiting your own freedoms. We are caught in a double bind here. And can we get ourselves out of it — and still be free? If so, HOW?

How can a distant uninvolved entity like the government recognize a conduct-disordered bully from someone who is just colorful and outspoken? The government we allow is currently run by authoritarians, bullies liars and abusers. The people in the government have various conduct disorders; that is why we expect them to lie, expect them to exploit us and expect them to abuse our freedoms. This is why we do not trust the government to do much in the interests of maintaining civil freedoms from bullies. Better use those absolutist principles to restrict power-made authoritarians who are equipped with homeland security, FBI and CIA, and huge nuclear arsenals built with our tax money to restrict our freedoms and the freedoms of other nations.

You can risk your own comfy position and turn on the bullies around you with teeth and expose them, call them on their lies publicly, and denounce their sick disordered social control tactics, their greed and destroy their stranglehold over others. So that they know they are no lord or master over others ... It would be a constant fight to get conduct-disordered people to restrict themselves from within. But this is one way out of this "double bind" about freedom.

The other way out is slowly strangling and silencing your own humanity within, by betraying yourself from within. For America's top 1%, the most wealthy to be in the powerful position they are in today, the other 99% of the population of America has to have learned the lessons of cowardice.

A lot of sad, alienated, tired, insecure, overworked, guilty, confused, emotionally unstable, intellectually lazy, and fearful people who are emotionally unequipped for confronting an asshole boss, or an asshole kid, or an asshole spouse have given up freedoms. Especially if they are dependant upon the bully for a paycheck, a relationship, or if they are afraid of confrontation or deep down believe they can't change the situation.

When 1 in 4 Americans have some form of mental illness, it's a warning that our way of relating to each other socially is becoming very sick. I think it's a call from within to stand up and confront the bullies around us, the bullies we let be in power, the bullies who are making us all sick. I am referring to the corporate polluters, liars, con men, the advertisers, politicians, lobbyists, spin doctors, media whores, and all the other public abusers of trust, as well as the domestic bullies like spouse beaters, con men, the TV, school bullies, religious bullies, work bullies, parent bullies and social bullies.

A person's conscience (if they have one) can torment them emotionally from within, until they make things right with themselves. If you ignore your own conscience's convictions of your wrong actions and words long enough, you can condition yourself to become numbed to it. The cost of ignoring your own conscience is to become neurotic, dishonest, addicted, impulsive, passive aggressive, manipulating, secretive and insecure.

A conduct-disordered person has a conscience disorder as well. Authoritarians can't self-police their own actions in society. They see no wrong in harming or using others or destroying the Earth for profit. Other people have to step up to control them and contain them or they will not stop.

If you let bullies dictate how you live, if you let bullies lie and steal unchallenged, then you are setting yourself up for a big explosion someday — or for a freefall to the bottom. Or you just might lose your conscience, either momentarily or forever, when you choose to betray yourself in a fit of rage, frustration or despair. When you are down or shattered to bits inside, a bully does not care about your pain at all. He sees you as an all day sucker to exploit, or as a weak, pathetic loser. He thinks this way because he has no empathy for you.

Authoritarians, bullies, liars, users, abusers, con men, and control freaks are incompatible with notions of freedom and democracy in any civil society.

Yet there is another half of this sick equation: the enabling, passive cowardice of a population who accepts being exploited, who are willing to throw away their consciences mental health and civil society for a pittance and cling to absolutist principles because they don't want to risk doing anything others might disapprove of. They don't want to risk more corrupting influences, to remove to corruption that is already there. This sad dynamic in people makes "the natural domination of sociopaths" in society possible.

Get honest and right with yourselves, people. Freedom for the World begins within YOU.

Fuck what others might think of you and those absolutist principals, and do what is right. Authoritarians, con men and bullies are by their nature incompatible with freedom and democracy in a civil society. Get off yer butt and confront those who would warp and destroy freedom in the name of freedom. . fearlessly. To not listen to your own conscience and to choose to not have self control, to avoid confrontation of a bully at all costs is what it takes to truly lose your freedom.


Underground Panther in the Sky

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WEagle Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-10-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. wow, nice contribution
thanks for a well thought through post.

there is a saying I read in A.S. Neil's "Summerhill"

"Freedom Is Not Licence"
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