What do you do when you reach a place where you brook no argument?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

I've reached that place with bush. I know too much, I've learned too much, I've seen too much. There is no return. No one in the world can convince me he is anything but dangerous for the US and the world. No one can convince me this war was anything but immoral and unjust.

It'd be like someone trying to convince me murder is just fine and dandy and great for national security, too! It just wouldn't work.

So how do I wrap my mind around the idea that I KNOW people who know all I do and still support him? I'm not talking about people who never read anything, who are out of touch, only get their news from crappy sources and support bush. At least their lack of knowledge can be blamed. But the people who DO actively research and read and still support him and his immoral, corrupt administration?

It's so fundamental to me, it is becoming a major problem in my real-life relationships with a few people. I have a hard time having any respect for them. Do they really value life so little? I would laugh if it weren't so sad.

So what do you do when you reach that point of brooking no argument any more? Did families and friendships fall apart during Vietnam and Watergate?

[DebJ]

1. yep. some families DEFINITELY fell apart due to Nam.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

3. Did they?

See I was a baby, toddler, young child during Vietnam and Watergate and only remember watching the evacuation of the embassy in 1975 on TV. I remember adults talking about that day a lot. But that's it.

My mom told me that she and her dad got into a LOT of very hostile arguments about Vietnam, with my poor grandmother refereeing all of it (she was pretty neutral). My grandfather had been in WWII and believed in supporting your country no matter what, and my mother was questioning things (in her early 20s during the late 60s).

So there was a lot of tense times, I know, in their family, but later, my grandfather agreed Vietnam was stupid and a waste and started feeling we should get out. So the tension subsided and things were ok.

I just feel everything getting MORE divisive, not less. And it's all because of bush. But in a way, I am glad to know the deeply held feelings of some of my friends run very counter to mine and to what I believe is right. It's disturbing, but I am glad to know on some level.

[Eloriel]

7. Oh, God, YES, the divisions in families were ENORMOUS

I don't think there many families in this country who weren't touched by Viet Nam -- by having a son (or, less often, daughter) over there and/or children who protested (or at least were against) the war while one or both parents supported it. Viet Nam REALLY tore the country and many families in it apart.

I think maybe if you rent Born on the Fourth of July you might see some of what went on in that way. Also, I thought at the time that Platoon was one of the first opportunities to heal some of those wounds -- tho I haven't seen it in a while and remember nothing more than the haunting opening scene and its haunting music.

Interstingly enough, your post gave me a flash of insight:

My grandfather had been in WWII and believed in supporting your country no matter what, and my mother was questioning things (in her early 20s during the late 60s).

Yes! The WWII generation had trouble, I think, believing their government could be not just wrong, but THAT wrong, and THAT corrupt, that we could ever wage an unjust war. It was a hard pill for them to swallow and I'm sure many of them never did.

[salinen]

2. The people who continue

to support this regime are not my family. They are either with us, or against us.

[fdr_hst_fan]

4. Yes, unfortunately, it DOES

create rifts. By the time I left my current job, I was barely on speaking terms with my manager, because he was a Shrub supporter, although he claimed he wasn't; but you'd hear the same crap from him that you hear on FAUX NEWS-in fact, that's the ONLY news he watched!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

I just took a new job

(promotion, really) with a guy who is so liberal it isn't funny. I am SO happy about that. He and I could talk all day and we vent and fume and have a good time. We both love that there is someone who feels the way we do to work with. We also agree philosophically where our job/field is concerned. He told me those two factors (agreeing on socio-political issues and issues in our field) were the biggest ones in making the decision to offer the job to me.

[Eloriel]

8. That's great! Congratulations!

Cool story.

[daveskilt]

5. knowing what is out there and supporting Bush anyway

is a pretty serious character flaw. I just hope that the people I like who are still attached to bush are just not paying attention.

[Jade Fox]

6. For Bush supporters to admit they are wrong at this late date....

is going to be hard.

They will have to realize they have been used. They will have to realize
a lot of people they respected are full of it. They will have to realize they
have done a lot of the work for those people who were screwing them the
whole time.

You can see their desperation in the response to F911. They won't go see
it, but they know it is full of lies. That is people beyond rationality.

Just a suggestion: Try telling them you know they are too good of a person
to support the things Bush has done, so you are confused as to how they
could still support him.