Should liberals force Christians to choose between Jesus and Bush?

[billbuckhead]

Should we make 2004election a referendum on Bush X-tians vs real Christians. Would it be possible to for a liberal Christian intellectual artist leader somebody do on a religious angle what Michael Moore did on a secular one? And if if someone could do it, would it be a good thing?

How can a group people who beat the rest of this society over the head with their morality and traditions allow such a fraudulent person as George W Bush to be a shepherd of them and simultaneously allow Abu Ghraid and even worse atrocities in Afghanistan to happen?
Americans constantly put pressure on Muslims to denounce their fanatics, so shouldn't liberals ask all these whitebread moderate Christian churches and middle of the road preachers to put up or shut up? I hate to be rude but mainstream Christianities commitment to social justice is long over the credit limit. If "We the People" can't count on Christian church's to stand up against torture, rape and turning civilian populations into so much collateral damage, then "Cheney" this being Christian nation. It's time for Christians to come through as Americans or let the humanist Euros take over western culture.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Brother, I know what you are talking about

Been at another board talking with freepers and came here for a breath of fresh air. Even though I posed logical argments backed up with facts (complete with citations), all the freepers can say is that all Muslims should be vaporized and that I am responsible for the terrorists and should do something about it.

The illogic of their arguments is funny, but the pure unadulterated hate and prejudice which spews from their mouths makes me ill. Wonder what kind of people would ever be attracted to the freepers and their exclusionary brand of Christianity.

[billbuckhead]

4. Bush doesn't listen to Jesus for political advice, he listens to Herod

Contrast and compare the imagery of "Passion of the Christ" to Abu Ghraid.

[salinen]

2. Christians are now convinced

that Man has no business governing Man. They believe that God should be the Earth ruler. Obviously, this is psychotic. If we gave into that notion, Man would continue to rule Man, only in the form of a Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Cheney um.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. really? Is that what "Christians" think?

Not hardly.

[bigbillhaywood]

3. Problem is that the right-wing Christians are better motivated, organized

and more militant than the more ecumenical and secular-minded Christians. Not that yours is a bad idea, but the left wing Christians (from the mildly liberal to the militantly socialist) have years of organizing work ahead of them to match the grassroots organization and political machinery of the Christian Right. It will be tough, because the more ecumenical types often (though certainly not always) adopt a wishy-washy "live and let live" attitude, rather than the hard-nosed, take-no-prisoners fervor necessary to seize power.

[Hoping4Change]

6. In other words they are fanatics. Odd that Osama's spawn have

that same hard-nosed, take-no-prisoners fervor necessary to seize power? (sarcasm off)

[bigbillhaywood]

7. A little fanatacism is necessary...

Every revolutionary and cultural warrior, good or bad (from Jefferson to Lenin to Hitler to Gandhi to Martin Luther King to Ralph Reed and Grover Norquist), must possess at least some to hope for change, Hoping4Change. Make no mistake, this is a war and the fascists are winning due in large part to their fanatical devotion to their cause. The left is adrift both organizationally and ideologically. This must be corrected or the fascists win. And if they consolidate power in such a technologically advanced lone superpower like ours, you can forget about ever changing anything. We need fanatics for reason, liberty, democracy and justice now more than ever before.

[Hoping4Change]

10. Well that is a good point. Your post reminds me of a conversation I

had in the mid eigties while I was bumming around Europe. On the outskirts of Delphi in a cafe I met a German in his late twenties who said he had been immersed in radical politics in Germany but then through bitter experience came to a belief that change could not happen unless individuals changed themselves which is what he planned to do. It was a strange encounter because I too had come to that conclusion.

Now as I read this thread I realize that people who are 'warriors' don't introspect, don't question themselves whereas the Left has perhaps gone too far in this direction.

[bigbillhaywood]

12. You weren't wearing Birkenstocks back then, were you? nt

[Hoping4Change]

14. Well that's a loaded question. I'm not sure how I want to answer it.

[bigbillhaywood]

16. Just fooling around. After a certain time posting on this board, my

postings move from the serious to the humorous (or attempts at being humorous at least). But the stuff in the lounge doesn't interest me much, so I still hang up here in GD. At any rate, I'm guessing the answer is yes. At least that's how you started off. Then you switched to combat boots and started being a groupie for Nena, Falco and Kraftwerk. Am I right?

As to your action v. introspection analysis-- I will have to give that one some more thought. I think some of those people I listed were quite introspective-- but I think your general take may be correct all the same.

[Hoping4Change]

23. Well I loved Kraftwerk and still do. You're right about the boots

and Birks. However I am reminded how before coming home I spent my last night running in and out of shoes stores in Thessoloniki. A sales woman in one store I ran into looked at me and snarled through her curled lip "Yugoslavian" and it wasn't a compliment.

As I bounced out of the store, having spent over $200 that sales lady had the same stunned looked as when I had rolled up my fatigues and tried on an assortment of high heels and sling straps.

"Humpf", I said to myself as I then turned my attention to a search for some dresses, "Yugoslavian indeed!"

I think people err when they conclude that people dress to express themselves, some people use clothing as a disguise.

ps they anybody not like kraftwerk?

[lgardengate]

5. Bad Idea!

My mom is a conservative Christian.She dosen't force her beliefs on anyone and she is a big Bush supporter.Her and my Dad send Bush money. They don't believe Bush lied etc and if anyone tried what you suggest on them they would just be more turned off than ever on Dems.
I live in WV, curches on every corner. these people are almost all social conservatives but many are Dems because of the "pocket book" issues...but Dems here voted for Reagan and Bush.
They will Never listen to liberal christians trying to change there minds.IMO it would cause a backlash with social conservativs who might vote for Kerry based on "pocket book" issues.

[Hoping4Change]

8. Hi lgardengate, love your name.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

What boggles me about onservative Christians is why they don't accept that Bush lied and even more puzzling why they are mute about the suffering caused by lack of healthcare?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. I agree that a hostile approach from atheists wouldn't work, but

I also believe that liberal Christians have a terrible time getting publicity in the corporate media.

In my diocesan newspaper, I learned that a group of liberal Christian clergy go to the state capitol every month to try to convince state legislators to restore spending for social programs.

The trouble is that anyone who geets elected as a Republican is probably totally in the pockets of the fundies and would lose financial support by advocating social programs.

However, I think that liberal Christians infiltrating fundamentalist churches and challenging the ministers and people in their own Biblical language after gaining some street cred would do a lot of good. This revolution would have to come from the bottom up.

You might also try showing your parents a copy of Sojourners, which is put out by a largely Mennonite community of people who are politically liberal and socially conservative.

[BeFree]

13. "...don't believe bush lied..."

Gee, I feel sorry for you. Your folks sound like my folks.

It's amazing, isn't it, that while they profess to be Christians they put a mere mortal politician up as some kind of saint. They turn against Christ's teachings and place more faith in bush than in Christ.

Those type of xians, my friends, are the Sheeple which we must lead away from sinning, and baptize them in the ways of peace, love and brotherhood. While the urge to bash them is strong, it is by example alone that teaches the Sheeple that it is safe to dissent and seek the truth.

[lgardengate]

18. I kind of disagree....

My parents don't put Bush ahead of Christ or think he's a saint.They just think he's a man who tries to act on his beliefs.
I don't see them as being in sin, but as having a different belief system than us.Talking to them about it dosen't do much good.no matter how old i get i'm still there "kid". They think i'm in the wrong on this.:eyes:

[BeFree]

22. "...act on his beliefs."

And what do they think he believes? His acts have shown a disregard for truth and brotherhood, right?

If they claim to be Christians, how can they have a different belief system? You are either a Christian or you are not!

What is it about you that makes them think you are wrong? Do you set a good example for them?

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. Anyone who lives by the teachings of Christ, or even tries to...

....would never choose Bush Jr

[billbuckhead]

15. But Bush said that Jesus was his most influential political philosopher

and many "Christians" take to Bush as some sort of prophet.

[AntiCoup2K4]

17. I doubt those poor deluded souls have ever opened a Bible

And I'm reasonably sure Junior hasn't. It would have burned his hands.

[lgardengate]

20. not always true

My mom reads the Bible every morining and evening.She just dosen't interpret (sp) the Bible as liberal Christians do.

[maxsolomon]

24. methinks ye aulde testamente

is the problem.

hard to spin the new testament to support killin & hatin (revelation excepted).

harder still to spin the gospel according to thomas. but that's heresy.

[Dorian Gray]

21. Hell....

I'm a Christian, and there is no way Bush is MY shepherd. And if Kerry were president, he wouldn't be, either. Politics is seperate from religion. The majority of people I know understand that.