Everyone saying "stop the Hitler references," but what if they're true?

[Atman]

With the ad on the Bush re-election site, the ADL calls to stop the Hitler references...what are we to do if by chance a man comes along who really IS as bad as Hitler? How are we supposed to warn others? As far as we know, Bush isn't systematically gassing people, and I've yet to see anyone claim any such thing. However, the media control and nationalism and fear mongering...hell, it seems to me that is just what is happening now, and the well-intentioned folks who say we must not smear the memories of the six million killed by Hitler, well...maybe they're just enablers? What most reading this may not realize is that the extent of Hitler's atrocities was not fully revealed until the Nuremburg trials. No one could imagine anything so horrible could be so real.

And now we're advised not to evoke the memory of the greatest fascist of all time to describe the current fascist in office, or his frat buddy opponent. Then what, pray tell, are we supposed to use as a point of reference for Bush? I'm not prepared to wait until his own "Nuremburg" to hear how we were right -- yet again.

[DarkPhenyx]

1. It took a few years for Hitler to get spun up.

Bush needs more time is all.

The ADL acts like they own the right to Hitler, Fascism, and a great many other things. I quit having any respect for their opinion a long time ago.

[truhavoc]

2. hell all of these "enemy combatants" could all be in gas chambers...

as we speak. Frankly I wouldn't put anything past Bush, especially in the confines of gitmo. This is why it is of utmost importance for him to be defeated in november..can you picture what this man could do in four years without the need to be reelected??

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Since Bush followers

on some boards are calling for the annihilation of all Muslims, I'd say that they, at least, rank right up there with the Nazis.

[Eloriel]

4. You're exactly right

And there's a TON of information to support similarities so striking as to be undeniable. Hitler was a lot of things before he got to the Holocaust. Equating him ONLY with the Holocaust and insisting that there be no comparisons to him only enables those who have come after him, frankly.

[Kanary]

5. Question -- to what end do you wish to make the comparison?

If you're talking among friends, and blowing off steam because this whole thing is so frustrating and scary and sicenening, then if your friends aren't insulted, why not........ There are definitely parallels, and sometimes we just need to express it.

If, however, what you're referring to is speaking to a mixed group, or con friends or relatives or neighbors.... it does nothing to further the cause. Once you've said "Bush is like Hitler" to those who don't see the connection, they turn off, tune out, and no further discussion is possible. Known as "playing the Nazi card", it does nothing to get a point across. Much better to keep discussing the issues, and pointing out the truth, rather than the RW spin. Just as Moore did.

When any group of people requests that people use or not use certain terms, the sensitive, caring thing to do is to understand their point of view, and respect their request. That's what makes a "big tent" possible. Arguing with each group over terms is a bit short-sighted.... well, just plain silly, when we are faced with the mess we have before us.

Kanary

[Atman]

12. Well stated, Kanary, but...how would you warn others?

When you warn of anything, you tend to offer a frame of reference..."This shot will feel like a pin prick." "This flood will be the worst since 1957." "Tastes like chicken."

So, how do we spread the word? Fascism and the Nazi atrocities DID start very much this same way. As stated before, the parallels are striking. So, without using any reference to the Nazi party, how would you warn a group about another group who happened to bear striking resemblance to them? Apples to apples, oranges to oranges, fascists to fascists. We don't say, "He is just like Mother Teresa, only a fascist." Come on...they laugh at us for our "political correctness." It seems to me that, politically, if we're correct we should be telling others as much as possible, not apologizing for the deaths of six million people generations ago, by a different guy. That was then, this is now.

[Kanary]

13. How's this for a corny answer......

Michael Moore didn't call bushwa a Nazi, yet his movie is having a lot of effect, right?

Sticking to facts, and not depending on catch phrases and well-worn arguments has a lot more chance of getting people to think, and that's the whole point.

It's much easier to compare to something everyone knows about..... I'll agree with that. But, as my mother used to say, somethings just aren't going to be easy. :) *YOU* know, and *I* know that the parallels are striking, but people who haven't seen that yet just go on a mental vacation when somebody says that to them.

If the draw is too strong, how 'bout picking another fascist in history (sadly, there are many to choose from), learn everything you can about that fascist, and draw the parallels. At least the eyes of your opponents won't be as likely to glaze over, as it's not something that is bandied about around every corner.

Another approach is to go the other route, and talk about the very positive things from this society. There are some *VERY* striking quotations from our founders that go a very long way to point out the stark contrast with the current misadministration. It's very hard for people to argue with our founders... especially right before the 4th of July. ~~evil grin~~

Here's a good one from Lincoln:
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety
of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow,
and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of
the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864
(letter to Col. William F. Elkins)

Notice the "safety" "corruption" "working upon the prejudices of the people"......... all great opening.

There are many that are beautifully apropos.........

I hear your point, but I take it seriously when a group who has been victims make such a request. Losing our ability to see a situation from another's side doesn't help our cause.

Again, some things just aren't easy, and this struggle is everything BUT.

:hi:

Kanary

[merh]

6. APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE ....

Thank you for this post, I could not have said it better myself.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[AntiCoup2K4]

7. How many prisoners are at "Gitmo"?

Has the number ever been reported? Do we have any way of knowing how many are there and what the increase or decrease have been?

If Gitmo turns out to be a concentration camp, they'll never have the problem of mass graves. Reportedly the waters off of southern Cuba have a lot of sharks. Disposal problem solved.

[jmowreader]

8. Hitler didn't walk in and start gassing people right away, either

In fact, Bush has been about a year ahead of Hitler for quite some time.

This is the Reichstag Fire Decree, passed on February 28, 1933, after the Reichstag fire of February 27, 1933.

1.The articles 114, 115, 117, 118, 123, 124 and 153 of the constitution are suspended until further notice. It is therefore permissible to restrict the rights to personal freedom , freedom of speech, including the freedom of the press, the freedom to organize and assemble, the privacy of letters, mail, telegraphs and telephones, order searches and confiscations and restrict property, even if this is not otherwise provided for by present law.

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/e/en/enabling_act.html is the Enabling Act. This law, which put Hitler in full control, is five very short paragraphs.

As opposed to the Patriot Act, which is over 300 pages of "delete the word 'not' from paragraph 7, line 3, of page 155, column 1 of US Code 181.227(1)"--if they'd have written the whole law out instead of amending the entire US Code, each copy of the Patriot Act would come with a free forklift.

[Trajan]

9. There are similarities .... There are differences ....

Then again: we are 'similar' to eskimos in speedos sometimes too ...

Analogies are problematic: ... He certainly has FASCIST tendencies, like Hitler did ...

He likes Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwiches, like Stalin ...

He walks with a funny limp, like Ghengis Khan ...

and He smirks like Louis the Orangatan at the San Diego Zoo ....

(Some of those I made up ... ) ...

[goddess40]

10. Skip Hitler, call them what they are Fascists

After all Hitler was in charge, bush isn't.
John McCain is the last Republican, the rest are fascists.

[DemoTex]

11. Bu$h-Hitler comparisons mine fools' gold. The real goldmine is the ...

Bu$h family's connections to the Nazi regime. Bu$h might be Hitler, Jr., but let it go. The family connections to the Third Reich, however, beg closer scrutiny and disclosure.

[Ignoramus]

14. analogy

I think many people don't really get the concept of "analogy". An analogy doesn't mean that things are the same, it contrasts different things for the purpose of illustrating a point.

When o'reilly etc. make an analogy between "liberals" and hitler, they are saying "here are some liberals shouting" and look "here is hitler shouting". That's a valid use of an analogy, but a stupid one. Liberals, like hitler, sometimes yell.

The analogies "the left" usually makes between hitler and bush tend to illustrate much more significant concepts. I think.

The idea of hitler represents a historical lesson. To make an analogy between someone and hitler is citing that historical lesson. It is raising a red flag: remember these problems related to hitler, look some of these are similar here. let's watch out. It doesn't mean because there are these similarites, that represents a complete argument in and of itself for opposing bush.