This is pretty cool, but will give more ammo to anti-abortion people

[ringmastery]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3846525.stm

A new type of ultrasound scan has produced the vivid pictures of a 12 week-old foetus "walking" in the womb.
The new images also show foetuses apparently yawning and rubbing its eyes.

The scans, pioneered by Professor Stuart Campbell at London's Create Health Clinic, are much more detailed than conventional ultrasound.

Professor Campbell has previously released images of unborn babies appearing to smile.

He has compiled a book of the images called Watch Me Grow.

[cocoabeach]

1. Zygot isn't supposed to look like that!

Clump of tissue....interesting.

[Fleshdancer]

7. That's because everyone knows a zygote isn't a 12 week old fetus

If you think a fetus like this instantly forms as soon as the sperm enters the egg then we need to have a serious talk.

[jdj]

30. yeah, it's called a homunculus (or something) and if you

look at sperm under the microscope, the the little guy will smile and wave.

[Fleshdancer]

64. sure they smile, but it's always that jerky, nervous kind of wave.

strange little guys. I bet they never stop and ask for directions either.

[Scairp]

2. Did you know?

That a corpse can have muscle contractions that can cause it to sit up straight? Or pass gas? Involuntary reactions are not proof of sentience, IMO.

[cocoabeach]

3. Do they still a have heartbeat? This tissue mass does

N/T

[Scairp]

4. Still doesn' t prove sentience

N/T back at ya.

[cocoabeach]

6. And a newborn baby does?

After my son was born and circumsized, he kept kicking himself in the weinie. Some stupid ass nurse told me that he couldn't feel pain and that his sreaming was just a nerve response. Bullshit!

But if Sentiance is what you want to use as a measure of life then ar you gonna put my Mother to death because she no longer has the self knowledge that you deem as qualifing one worthy of life or death?

[jdj]

31. You mutilated your child? Shame on you!

Dare you judge anyone else?

[Pachamama]

43. If my Mother had a living will and wished to die, yes, I would honor her

...wish to die if she was no longer able to function the way she would have wanted...

Just curious - how do you feel about the death penalty? Have you adopted? Considered Adopting? Have you spent any time with children who have serious birth defects or crack babies and been responsible for caring for them? Have you visited 3rd world countries and spent time around children who are dieing of starvation and disease? Have you ever been raped and gotten pregnant as a result? Have you ever had a man/husband who was beating you daily and raping one of your daughters and meanwhile you got pregnant from one of the nights he came home drunk and beat you and raped you?

Have you ever had Hyperemesis? And if you did, what if you had no health insurance or lived in a 3rd world country?

Please don't get on this board and start lecturing people in areas you have no experience in any of the above mentioned categories and even if you have experience in any one or two of the forementioned categories, don't go telling others how to live their lives...It's called choice and unless you have walked in someone elses shoes, you have no right to judge their choice and even if you have walked in their shoes, it still gives you no right to make a judgement.

[Warpy]

5. It doesn't matter

It's amazing that men who feel perfectly justified in killing an intruder into their living rooms get all squeamish when a woman wants to defend herself against an intruder into her body.

I don't give a rip if Aristotle was right and the head of a spermatazoa contains a tiny, perfect human being who composes sonnets in utero once it's met an ovum. If it's unwanted, and the woman it's parasiting on feels it's a threat to her health, finances, or LIFE, then she has a right to rid herself of it.

This argument over opinions about when life/sentience/sonnet composing begins is just plain silly. The person with the rights is the obviously living, breathing, and thinking WOMAN.

It's self defense, guys, and no amount of stupid antiwoman laws will change that.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heyo]

9. Right on....

I agree with that fully, and I am pro choice.

Heyo

[Branjor]

11. She can use whatever she wants for birth control.....

It's her body. If you don't like it, give up sex.

[Lindacooks]

18. Guess what?

It's none of your cheney business.

If you are against abortion, don't have one. Otherwise, you have NO say in another person's control over her body.

[Forkboy]

27. "It's none of your cheney business."

bahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha! :)

[smirkymonkey]

157. Oooo! That is priceless!

"None of your Cheney business"! I am going to start using it now...and often!

It really flows, unlike some of the other Cheney profanity. :)

[Nederland]

160. Begging the question

Otherwise, you have NO say in another person's control over her body.

Your argument assumes the very thing being debated: that we are only talking about one person, not two.

[Timefortruth]

20. If I am 25 year old WalMart clerk with cancer

I can die at home and no one will think there is a thing wrong with my bad luck at not having insurance so I can get treatment.

If I'm a two year old Iraqi who is unfortunate enough to live near a well-developed target worthy of an air strike, my life is an unfortunate collateral loss.

The list of our disregard for life is endless. There is something enchanting about a fetus (the potential maybe?) that some people hold it in higher regard than other human life.

The truth is that childbirth is way more dangerous than abortion so if a woman choses to avoid that risk to protect herself then how is she different then anyone else?

Life is life.

[smirkymonkey]

158. That was put beautifully

and really sums up the hypocrisy of the anti-choice postion very well.

[Selwynn]

186. Fan-fucking-tastic!

[GoneOffShore]

21. If you don't like abortion

THEN DON'T HAVE ONE!
It should not be up to ANY man to say who should have access to birth control or abortion.

[Mr. Blonde]

23. So can ANY woman say who should have access to

birth control or abortion?

[GoneOffShore]

26. Too many men make the laws

regarding birth control and abortion.
And no, no laws should be made restricting access. By anyone.
By men OR women.
Sorry I wasn't clear enough for you.

[Mr. Blonde]

32. It was mostly sarcasm

I'm still a big fan of the crossing the legs method of birth control. Because even better than not having to worry about pregnancy or stds there is no emotional baggage. Of course no one seemed a big fan of that method since before abortion was legal. Oh well.

[jdj]

49. maybe we need to establish a law that says that every male

of sexual maturity must be injected with a drug rendering him infertile. Permission to bear children will be granted by submitting a form to the county courthouse. After deliberation, the couple must undergo medical exams for STD's and drug use. Then the birth control for the male will be stopped until the female conceives,upon which time the birth control injections will resume. Of course during the time he is not "birth controlled" the male will be surveilled by a GPS monitoring system to make sure he doesn't have intercourse with any other female.

I'm giving this example because when people talk about "crossed legs" it's usually the female variety they are referring to.

Men seem to escape the nauseating moralizing of the anti-abortion crowd, because the embryo doesn't implant itself in them.I suspect much of the right wing avoids unwanted pregnancies by raping their pre-adolescent daughters, and that is not an acceptable way to avoid abortion, at least not in my reality.

[Mr. Blonde]

56. The male "pill"

I have heard is nearly a reality, and much safer than the female variety since it doesn't mess with hormones. I would definitely be up for taking that. In a slightly more totalitarian state your idea might not be a bad one. Except I have a feeling std's would run rampant.

[jdj]

73. Moralizing from the right is a symptom of a hoped

totalitarian state, with regards to pregnancy. That's what they want, that's what they're after, turning women into breeding stock with no reproductive control whatsoever.

I'm not talking voluntary birth control on the part of men, I'm talking a sure-fire fail safe way to eliminate abortion completely. This is what the right wants, isn't it? Well, I'm thinking outside the box.

Because I'm gonna tell you, that coat-hanger is always going to be hanging in the closet, and if that doesn't work, there are plenty of women who would be willing to risk throwing themselves off the porch or down the front steps, like they used to do in the old days.

Course there are pockets of women with suction equipment out there ready to go underground if Roe is overturned (I personally have met one of these women) who teach other women how to give abortions so we never have to go back to the dark ages. And I'm sure at some point some of the herbalists will rediscover the ancient formulas for abortion that women have had access to through the ages. Where there is pregnancy, there will always be abortion.

[Mr. Blonde]

78. I'm just not personally a big fan of abortion

I have no interest in it being repealed. I just think of all the possibility that has been ended before we had a chance to find out what could have been.

I hope the male pill is around soon because of how much easier it is on a male's body. From my Anatomy class it seems like it must be incredibly unhealthy for women who no doubt go years on birth control.

[jdj]

94. I haven't, but Nataline Angier, the biologist who wrote

"Woman, An Intimate Geography" scared me with her attitude toward hormonal birth control, she was very leary of it.

I personally have never met an abortion fan. I mean no one pays for seats on the 50 yard line and roots for Dr. vs. fetus. I have gotten in trouble for posts here a couple of times because I have a couple friends who have tremendous grief over abortions they have had as teens. I resent it when people get all technical in portraying abortion in scientific terms only, because some women grieve the loss of that life deeply. Sometimes I get the feeling you are not even supposed to say life, and for some women it isn't. But this is the reality of women's lives. Always has been, always will be. I just see this issue being solved about the time we eliminate incest, war, poverty, famine etc.

[Mr. Blonde]

110. I agree that this issue

will always be around because it gives something for politicians to discuss in debates with neither side really wanting it gone because then what would they talk about?

[jdj]

113. Gay marriage.

[Mr. Blonde]

115. ha ha

The protests outside courthouses granting gay marriages ought to be interesting.

"Your going to burn in hell you fuckin' non-breeder."
"Tell 'em Steve-Dave."

I hope someone is a Jay and Silent Bob fan.

[Djinn]

79. scenario

Woman trusts bloke when he says "I'm on the male pill"
Bloke turns out to be lying.
Woman gets pregnant, bloke buggers off.
Woman gets screeched at by fundies at clinic that she shouldn't "use abortion as birth control"

[Mr. Blonde]

85. Is it different

from when a woman misses a dose of the pill? I have been told that a woman has to take it in pretty exacting 24 hour doses, or it won't work. At least that is what my mom told my sister when one of my sister's friends got pregnant. "We can go get you the pill, wait no the shot I don't trust you to remember the pill everyday."

[belle]

120. Well, hey, there's always mass castration.

[Cheswick2.0]

168. fabulous idea

then we women wouldn't have to worry.
Let's just freeze enough sperm and get going on that idea.

[nickgutierrez]

129. The Vonnegut approach

Kurt Vonnegut once wrote a short story called "Welcome to the Monkey House", published in a collection of his short stories with the same name. "Birth control", in this story, consisted of a pill that literally rendered men senseless from the waist down.

"The pills were so effective that you could blindfold a man who had taken one, tell him to recite the Gettysburg Address, kick him in the balls while he was doing it, and he wouldn't miss a single syllable."

[belle]

119. Cross your own damn legs.

Say, here's an idea! What if we force all men who aren't married to have a vasectomy? Or take saltpeter? Or do like St. Paul (anecdotally) and castrate themselves? Gee, no?

Intrusive and unfair, isn't it?

[Djinn]

28. who says ANYONE uses it for birth control

are you suggesting no-one have sex at all until and if they want a kid? because there is no 100% effective birth control, even for virgin's - a friend of mine in highschool found that out at 15 a month after being raped by her boyfriend.

Quite frankly your post is ignorant, offensive, childish and redolent of the freepiest right wing "pro-life" arguments out there.

Hows that?

BTW - the second picture above is clearly NOT a 12 week old fetus. And I'm surprised the BBC reports this guys "findings" as new eg: From 12 weeks, unborn babies can stretch, kick and leap around the womb - well before the mother can feel movement this is NOT new information

I have absolutely no respect for the vast majority of those professing to oppose abortion - most of them BY far agree with it if needed to save the mothers life or after rape - it's either "killing a baby" or it's not, since when is it OK to kill a "human being" just because their father is a rapist?? Atleast those few in the minority who beleive ALL abortion is wrong have some kind of logical consistency

[spotbird]

29. How about keeping your prick in your pants?

Another effective way to prevent abortion.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[absolutezero]

66. ok

I hate to tell you, but this will most likely get you banned

[Delano]

71. Welcome to DU...

I totally disagree with the anti-abortion stance, but there are a sizeable minority of democrats who are against abortion (just as there are a LOT of pro-choice repugs), so I welcome the thoughts of anti-abortion people.

But word to the wise, it would probably be best to keep your posts from being very confrontational or insulting. Also, the consensus here is in favor of separation of church and state, so I don't think scripture-based arguments will help you much.

If you are a democrat and sincerely "pro-life" (I believe that all of us are), I think you should be able to advocate that position here. But if you come at it the wrong way, some people will start hitting "alert" and we'll no longer benefit from your perspective here. Keep it respectful and keep your arguments logic-based and secular, and you'll probably do okay.

Anyway, I am 100% pro-choice, but I agree that abortion should not be used as birth control (although I think women who have more than one are fairly rare) and your insinuation that all women who choose to have an abortion are doing so is insulting, and just plain wrong.

I also oppose abortion in the 3rrd trimester unless to save the life of the mother - but 3rd trimester abortions are also pretty rare.

I am the product of adoption, a mother who because of her religious beliefs would not abort me. I'm grateful for that and respect it. But I don't think that every pregnant woman should be forced to bear her child. It seems medieval...

[kiahzero]

130. Can you say "Straw man?"

What a surprise... a logical fallacy from someone who appears to be anti-choice.

What's next? The sun rising?

[Mr. Blonde]

10. You don't have a too good an opinion of

the human race do you? Everyone at some point is a parasite? That is some depressing shit.

[Cheswick2.0]

13. you might not like the word

However it is true. When a baby is born it has rights. Until then the women has all the rights.

[Mr. Blonde]

15. Well

for the most part a parent has all the rights beyond that. I agree with the above a little restraint might be the best way to avoid having a child.

[merh]

34. If men had to carry a child and give birth this debate would not

be occurring. There would effective birth control (100% effective), abortions would be more common place than they are now and legal, with no thought for the consequences and of course, there would be no population explosion. A man could not bear the physical pains that accompany carrying a child and birth.

Edited to correct typo and to add:
If men had to carry a child and give birth, the human race would have died off a long time ago. (IMHO)

[Yupster]

121. What a sexist piece of crap

You really feel that superior do you?

[Cheswick2.0]

35. another person with a penis weighs in

I think since you can't get pregnant I don't really care what you think.

[Mr. Blonde]

37. Restraint from both parties

does that make it better? It isn't like I hold women solely responsible for a pregnancy, but why is abstinence such a terrible thing?

[Cheswick2.0]

45. I said

since you can not get pregnant I do not care what you think. You have no say. When you have a Uterus you can decide what to do with it.

[Mr. Blonde]

48. So in essence it isn't half the male's child

until it is born?

[jdj]

54. It?

[Mr. Blonde]

58. Well, he/she has kind of a negative connotation as well right?

Child anyway is probably a better choice of words.

[merh]

68. Well let's think about that, since the male is not carrying it,

since it is existing in the woman's womb, feeding off the substance supplied by the woman, yeah, it would seem that it is not physically the man's while it is in the womb. That is why it is the woman who has the ultimate responsibility. Emotional connections may be there, but physical are not.

[Mr. Blonde]

70. So to continue on that

it becomes no ones child once the child is born?

[merh]

100. Physically it becomes an independent living being.

EMOTIONALLY AND MORALLY AND FINANCIALLY IT IS BOTH PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY.

Once you have a uterus you can take the moral high road and profess that you will never have an abortion. As I said in an earlier post, if men had to go through the physical rigors of carrying and delivering a child, this debate would not be occurring. The majority of men cannot stand a backache without taking an aspirin or having a drink. Imagine what it would be like to have months of nausea, backaches, fatigue, mood swings and other general physical discomforts that accompany the pregnancy and know that you cannot take an aspirin to try to relieve the pains. That is just the pregnancy.
Imagine if you will trying to pass a bowling ball, then multiply that by 10 and maybe you get close to the pains of delivery.

Men cannot pass kidney stones without being hospitalized or heavily medicated. Those are small stones, not 6 to 8 to 10 lb human beings.

[Mr. Blonde]

104. Does this mean that I can still take the moral high road and

say that I will never advocate abortion in any pregnancy I help bring about?

[merh]

114. I never believed that blondes were as dense as they say, but

you definitely are changing my views on that cliche.
If you have a uterus, you may chose what you want to do with your uterus and your body. If you do not zip it. You have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body. If you happen to impregnate a woman who wants to have an abortion and you want the child, then that is your dilema - irresponsible sex without recognizing the possible consequences of it are just as immoral as an abortion.

If your morals are tied to your religious views and those views are tied to the bible, I ask that you please take note that the literal messages contained in the bible that pertain to sex provide that sex is only for purposes of procreation. Thus, anyone, man or woman, married or single, who have sex for reasons other than making babies are violating the teachings of the bible. Committing the moral wrong according to the bible. Do you realize that if the good book were taken literally and practiced faithfully as professed, men are not even supposed to do what comes natural and pleasure themselves - spill no sperm.

[Mr. Blonde]

116. Uh oh, and I'm not even a blonde

I said I wouldn't advocate it. I never said I would demand she have the child. I would like to think that I won't be put in that position, and ...so far so good. I would hope that in any relationship that yielded a pregnancy it would be out of love and therefore both parties would have an interest in bringing "our" child into this world.
My morals are not tied to the bible. I just hate to think of all the potential that has been lost in a doctor's office. I have been told that the Song of Solomon tells us that God gave sex to married couples to enjoy themselves, and not just to procreate, but I don't know I have some other trouble with the bible outside that.
The spilling of seed thing always bothered me because your body has a built in method of spilling it for you, but that is a topic for another thread probably.

[merh]

126. Your name on this forum is "Mr. Blonde" thus the blonde reference

that and the fact that you could not accept the simple concept that unless you have a uterus you have no idea what a woman goes through for those 9 months and during delivery. (It would help if you remember who you are from forum to forum.)

If you hate to think of the potential that is lost in the doctor's office, then god forbid that you should even consider those in foster homes and orphanages that are waiting to prove their worth, their potential that is going unclaimed, the unwanted children of this world. Why haven't they been adopted? Could it be their skin color, their eyes, their age, their handicaps that make them undesirable? They have so much potential yet it is wasted and they are alive. And please don't even consider the potential lost in the third world countries due to starvation and disease and neglect.

I have never been able to understand how so many can cry for the unborn and yet, not give a damn for the living. Call me crazy, but I call that hypocrisy.

I end this post and this discourse with you with this simple statement. If you do not have a uterus, you cannot possible understand what struggles a woman goes through relative to birth and/or abortion.

[belle]

125. Do whatever the hell you want. It's still up to her. But may I suggest..

that if you *really* want to be safe, you could, you know, cross your legs. Forever.

[jdj]

105. Where I come from women tell men

"if you had to piss a pumpkinseed"(then you'd understand childbirth)
Just thought I'd share that.

[merh]

108. LOL - that is a good one - I have to remember that.

[Djinn]

117. I agree with you but

to be fair the urethra isn't capable of dilation so personally I think the pooing a melon is more apt!

[outinforce]

177. Got A Link?

"The majority of men cannot stand a backache without taking an aspirin or having a drink"

Really?

How do you know that?

Is there some governmental organization that keeps track of how men react to back pain?

"The majority of men", indeed!

"Men cannot pass kidney stones without being hospitalized or heavily medicated."

Really?

Is that ALL men, or just the majority of men?

Where can I go to verify these sexist assertions of yours?

[belle]

124. Correct. It isn't.

Remember that good old Protestant fable, "The Little Red Hen?" The one who does the work is the one who calls the shots. Sorry. When you're the one who has to stagger around for nine months with a child in your belly and all the attendant physical and emotional changes that come with it, then you can have more of a say.

[Cheswick2.0]

165. Get pregnant and get back to me

when it is in your body

[Yupster]

122. And when the woman gets pregnant and

wants money from you for the next 18 years, then you should have no say in that either.

[Cheswick2.0]

171. stop screwing women you are not married to and who has not

agreed to have your child.
Keep it in your pants until you are in a commited relationship with a woman and want to have children with her.

[Yupster]

189. I'm an old married guy

Been faithful my whole marriage, but thanks for the advice.

Wondering though -- does your advice go for women too?

If they don't want to end up with unintended pregnancies, they should just stop screwing around? No abortion to correct the mistake?

Or is this just more advice for men, but not for women?

[jdj]

53. one rape every six seconds.

So where does your restraint theory fit in here again?

[Mr. Blonde]

59. On the side that

needs to be reminded "the hand can't say no".

[jdj]

75. you've lost me.

I'd respond, but I've never heard that axim.

or axiom. Now I am confusing myself.

[Mr. Blonde]

82. I can't remember where

I first heard it, but it always seemed very fitting. If a girl says no he can always go home and jerk off. It isn't worth the consequences to rape a girl. They both end in the same (immediate) result for a man, and guess what she won't have tons of emotional and physical damage, and the guy won't be going to jail. I can't believe the church has a problem with jerking off.

[Djinn]

92. You're WAY out on rape

it's not about getting off - it's about power.

And to be honest I found your choice of words "It isn't worth the consequences to rape a girl" sick making - I hope that was just a poor choice of phrasing, if I ever have sons I'll be telling them to respect a woman (or man) when she/he says no and it'll have NOTHING to do with going to jail.

[jdj]

96. That gave me chills.

[Mr. Blonde]

99. If someone is to the point of being willing to rape

someone I think consequences is the only thing they would understand. Something is chemically wrong with people who would do that. I can't imagine raping someone out of respect for that person, but someone who does probably has little respect for any human not just potential victims.

Seems like most rape cases where it is a one time thing would start out of lust and work its way into a power issue. A serial rapist would be a different case.

[jdj]

103. I don't understand how a man can maintain an erection

with someone screaming and crying and puking and bleeding and clawing at his face. Wouldn't this kill the "lust" that you mention? I think normal "non-rapist" men confuse their fantasies with the actual reality of rape. I would speculate that alot of non-serial rapists may rape out of anger, which is violence, which is about physical power and not wholly sex, but sexualized aggression, like they say. There is enough spousal rape going on to validate this.

[Mr. Blonde]

109. In any case rape is

a despicable crime, and I'm glad they often get killed in prison. And maybe in the same way that men get off on the power they feel when raping a girl they can also get off on abusing themselves, and I don't mean just jerking off I mean real abuse. Bastards.

[belle]

123. See William Reich: "The Mass Psychology of Fascism," for a start.

Of course, all sex isn't necessarily penis-vagina intercourse, and a person can have a healthy and fulfilling sex life without ever having such. But then, you knew that, right?

[Delano]

84. Men have every bit as much right to weigh in in their opinions on abortion

as women. A great many men have participated in the effort to keep abortion legal. If their opinions are valid, so are those who are opposed. This sort of sexism is so hypocritical. There are just as many "pro-life" women as there are men, by the way - the most vehement anti-abortion folks I've seen have been women, actually.

If a man is not willing to fulfill his responsibility in raising his child, I don't think he has any business weighing in on the woman's choice. Strictly and legally speaking, it's the woman's choice alone, but there is usually a man involved, and his feelings matter too, dammit.

Who the hell waited on my wife hand and foot for 6 months of her pregnancy? Me. Who paid ALL the bills? Me. Who did ALL the housework when she couldn't get out of bed due to premature contractions? Me. Who changed just as many diapers and got up in the middle of the night just as much as she did? Me. Who the hell are you to invalidate every man's opinion just because of their gender? How arrogant must youo be to assume that no man could possibly have any empathy or understanding of what a woman goes through in a pregnnancy and delivery. I was there through the whole thing, and it was grueling for both of us. And the real tough part isn't the gestation and delivery, it's the childrearing. Almost every mother will tell you that.

And I AM pro-choice by the way. I just hate the notion that I'm not entitled to an opinion on it because I have no uterus. Maybe poor people shouldn't get to vote on taxes since they don't pay any?

[spotbird]

89. The truth is that when she went into labor

and gave birth to your child it was her life that was at risk even if you cleaned the toilets and paid ALL the bills during her pregnancy.

There are some things money can't buy.

[Delano]

97. She chose to get pregnant and have the baby.

And we were surrounded by the best doctors and nurses. The risk to her life was minimal. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate her taking that risk. I worried constantly about her welfare and that of the baby. I can't tell you how relieved I was that they were both okay.

After the delivery, my wife said "That was nothing. The pregnancy was ten times worse than the delivery" She had a totally drug-free but very easy delivery. Unfortunately, she had horrible morning sickness and lost about 12 lbs during the first 6 mos, and was just at her normal body weight before delivery. She also had to be hospitalized during both her pregnancies because of the premature contraction problem.

YOU have never been a worried husband with his wife and child in the hospital for a month with no way to help - YOU have no way of knowing what that feels like, but I wouldn't just blow off YOUR feelings on the matter.

[Cheswick2.0]

139. " The risk to her life was minimal"

no it wasn't

[spotbird]

151. No, but I've known people who have died after childbirth

and I barely survived it myself.

It is wonderful that your wife's pregnancy and your child's birth went smoothly.

Despite your wife's experience there is real risk even if the child is delivered at a modern medical center. Abortion is much safer, it is the woman's body and she is the only person who should decide if she wants to assume the risk.

[Yupster]

127. I'm pro-choice too, but

our current laws are completely out of whack.

In my opinion, no one should be able to force a woman to be a mother, however,

I also think that no one should be able to force a man to be a father.

Our current law that whether to have the baby is entirely the mother's call, but then if she chooses to have it, then the father is responsible financially.

To me that cannot be logically defended. You can't be expected to take responsibility for a decision that you had no part in making.

Usually the answer to that is that the man made his choice when he unzipped his pants. Of course then the logical answer is that the woman made her choice when she unzipped her pants. Oh no - That will get you called a mysoginist somehow.

My solution is that when a woman finds out she's pregnant, she must inform the father within some reasonable amount of time. Then the father must in writing either agree to be responsible for the child or decline responsibility for the child, again within some imposed time. Regardless of what the man decides, whether to have the baby is still entirely the woman's call, but she makes the call with the knowledge of whether she'll have help from the father or not.

That way, no woman is forced to be a mother, or man is forced to be a father.

[Cheswick2.0]

140. I think it sucks that women must be the ones to get pregnant

and carry the child. Life sucks sometimes. Your decision to a father or not is when you decided to have sex.

[Yupster]

149. Today that's true enough

It's a true double standard.

Man decides to be a father when he decides to have sex.
Woman doesn't decide to be a mother when she decides to have sex.

Just as sexist as can be.

[Delano]

153. Good point.

n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

138. no they don't

get a uterus and you get to decide. Until then MYOB.

[Delano]

152. No.

We get a vote in this society and we get our say.

Women alone cannot keep abortion legal. You need to get off your high horse.

[Yupster]

161. If you're a man

your opinion is not wanted. Just your checkbook.

[Delano]

162. OOOH! Even I wouldn't go there...

Andd I'm not much for toeing the PC line.

Get ready for the barrage of "SEXIST!" Accusations.

You might ought to put a smiley or something to indicate that it's tongue-in-cheek...

;)

[Yupster]

167. This whole thread is full of sexism

Some say men should just shut up.

Others say men can talk but they shouldn't be listened to.

Others say it's lucky women get pregnant because men are such weanies they wouldn't be abble to handle it.

Others say men lost their ability to decide when they unzipped their pants. So do women lose their ability to decide when they unzip their pants? Of course not, that's an anti-woman comment.

To many people here the right to make the decision and be responsible for the decision are two very different things.

The woman should be 100 % responsible for making the decision. The responsibility for the decision should be shared 50-50. I don't believe that's a defensible position logically.

How can you hold someone responsible for a decision he had nothing to do with? Well with the police and garnished wages I guess.

There was a case here locally where a guy went to jail for refusing to pay child support to the two children that his wife had with her lover while married to him. He was supposed to send a check each month to his ex-wife who was now living with the guy she had the affair with. He took it to court, lost, refused to pay, and went to jail.

Our current laws are as sexist as can be and are totally out of whack.

[Cheswick2.0]

174. poor victim

:nopity:

[Cheswick2.0]

173. waaaaaaaaaaa

the poor put upon male....so devoid of rights and privileges in this society. :nopity:

[LanternWaste]

16. Odd use of terms, though...

Odd use of terms, though. I don't think it would sit too well if I asked,

"Mrs. Jones, have you decided what you're going to name your parasite yet?"

"My what?"

"You know, that parasite you've been incubating for some time now."

"Well, that's just..."

"You might not like the words, Mrs. Jones; but for all intents and purposes, that's what it is, so get over it... so, *have* you decided on a name yet...?"

I think for my part I'll simply refrain from using the term as it appears to allow too many inferences.

[Cheswick2.0]

38. a lot of emotional garbage don't you think?

What a silly post.

[LanternWaste]

44. Terribly Sorry for being Silly.... Humblest Apologies....

Simply putting the aforementioned term (Which I'm told is valid, regardless of how anyone feels about it) into the context of a typical conversation and my opinion of how odd it would sound. Wasn't trying to piss you off, just trying to keep things light.

I know better now...

[Cheswick2.0]

46. oh nonsense

that is not even close to being a normal conversation.

[LanternWaste]

50. If the word is valid...

If the word (parasite) is valid as you say, then there is no reason to avoid using it as illustrated ("have you decided what to name the parasite...?"). If, however, it is a term used to incite emotion or to imply a position, then you are right... it's not a normal conversation.

[jdj]

88. I'm not crazy about that word used in this context, more accurately

it can be used to describe men in societies that don't allow women reproductive freedom.

Or hell, it can be used to describe anyone running a puppy mill or factory farm, exploiting female bodies and profiting off of it while giving back absolutely nothing in return.

[LanternWaste]

95. I think I can assume we both think...

But I think we both agree that fundamentally, it's used in a perjorative manner in most cases. And until we can get learn to avoid using phrases and words intended to incite rather than communicate, we're gonna keep taking a few steps back every time we make forward progress.

On the other hand, chalk this up to a "I've-been-up-working-for-18-hours-and-I'm-really-tired" post from guy still going through culture shock.... :crazy:

[spotbird]

74. Do you have an interest in innocent life that is born?

How about guilty life?

If you can't defend the dignity of the born you have absolutely no standing to approach the rights of the unborn.

[LanternWaste]

91. Hmmm...

The comments I made were directly in response to the use of the word "parasite". I have made absolutley no indication as to whether I am pro-choice or pro-life, and since I'm a guy and my opinions about it really don't count one way or another (so I'm told), I won't advertise my thoughts concerning it. I'm not really sure how your questions and statement applies to my posts, but then I'm the first to admit that I'm not the brightest guy in the world and that also I'm at the tail end of a 16 hour day, it's almost midnight and things are really starting to get difficult to make sense of :)

Again, I simply have an issue with words like, "parasite" and "incubator" as they are emotionally charged words used for no other purpose than to emotionally charge a conversation.

As to the your question posed to me, I do have an interest in innocent life that is born. I also have interest in guilty lives. As for the statement, it makes grammatical sense, but for the life of me, I can't figure out where the phrase-emphasis should be or what you are fundamentally trying to imply. But again, I'm one tired gringo and my confusion shouldn't be surprising. :crazy:

[Roaming]

143. That is a silly argument to me; an intruder means to do a person

bodily harm; a baby is an innocent resident of the womb. And a baby is living, breathing oxygen through the umbilical cord, and yes, even thinking (they have monitored brain wave activity in very small babies in the womb, even monitored REM sleep).

If you want to support a woman's right to choose, fine, but arguments like this (self-defense??) are just kooky sounding.

[Baltimoreboy]

147. I've always been pro-Choice

Your response is so off the wall, I am going to think about it some more.

[Cheswick2.0]

12. lots of things have heart beats

do you have a point?

[Az]

42. Need a brain for that

Contrary to many theologians the mind does not reside in the heart. Its all about the brain. Which is of course we do not have any volunteers rushing forward to receive the first brain transplant.

[Fleshdancer]

112. and this tissue mass is NOT a zygote

so why call it that? And for that matter, why call it tissue mass?

[Timefortruth]

14. The second scan is not of a 12 week old fetus.

That is of a much more developed fetus, but the technology is really cool.

If there were a single part of the "pro-life" movement that were truly advocating life after it was born I might take them seriously. As it stands now it is just a control issue.

Life is valuable or it isn't. If we ignore 30 year old people, then we can ignore the unborn.

[More Than A Feeling]

17. Whenever I hear about abortion...

all I can think about is that I wouldn't want to be aborted.

[Kanary]

19. Were you?

[Cheswick2.0]

36. LOL

:hi:

[kikiek]

22. Maybe not in this life. How about if you were to be born in

Ethiopia. No one seems to care we allow babies to starve to death. That isn't better than not being born. This country is going further and further away from any kind of social programs. They want you born but they don't give a shit what happens to you afterwards. Not to mention it isn't the rich that will lose access to safe abortion services. As usual only the poor will be dying in the back alley. Also they aren't allowing the morning after pill that would prevent abortions. This isn't about the babies. It's about control, and they want to control your body.

[spotbird]

80. There is something very disturbing about people who are

alive that the prolife movement can't even touch.

[Djinn]

33. sigh

you weren't - had you been you would never have had the capacity to dwell upon it. This "argument" is up there with "what if Beethoven's mother had an abortion" to which the obvious response is "what if Hitler's had?"

[kikiek]

39. Far from it.

[jdj]

40. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, I, I, I.

Some of this egotism would be well put to use by adopting or fostering parentless children. I know they are already born, which is distasteful to pro-life people, but since there is so much concern among the anti-abortion crowd, I can't figure out for the life of me why there are so many children in foster care begging to be adopted, but no takers. We are talking hundreds of thousands of kids, and from all the hot air being spewed you can assume there must be at least that many "pro-life" peopole, so it looks like the anti-abortion movement is failing miserably, in terms of follow through, or as it says in the bible "faith without works is dead."

[More Than A Feeling]

57. well, since you brought it up

I actually don't plan to have any children who aren't adopted

[Djinn]

62. and you wont be getting pregnant

anytime soon either will you?

[More Than A Feeling]

69. Can't imagine that I will.

I still think that adoption is the preferable option to erasing potential human life.

[Djinn]

87. while I don't beleive

that men should have no say in this matter - it's hard to listen to the "I'd never have an abortion" and "isn't it awful" line from a bloke who'll NEVER find himself in the position of having to choose

"Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love
He said don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of
But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call
And she sweared god damn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls

And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose"

[jdj]

77. Do you mean "I plan to adopt"?

It's very late.

[More Than A Feeling]

83. Yes that is what I meant

wanting children to be adopted rather than aborted, and planning to do my part by adopting (if I decide to accept the responsibility for a child) somehow makes me "contemptuous of life" in the words of another poster. I am not sure how, but there you go.

[jdj]

98. Good for you. Better you spend your time preaching

adoption to the hypocrites in the anti-abortion movement.

[Roaming]

144. Actually, I think most people who are pro-life are also pro-adoption.

[spotbird]

60. The answer is misogyny

Over the years it has become clear that this debate has just nothing to do with life.

The "pro-life" movement is contemptuous of life.

[More Than A Feeling]

63. Er, ok...

since your message is in reply to mine, are you associating me with the pro life movement, and thus, saying that I am "contemptuous of life", as you put it?

[spotbird]

86. No, not at all.

My point is that the "pro-lifers" aren't pro-life. They, or at least their leaders, have a very different agenda.

[smirkymonkey]

172. Ding, Ding, Ding...

You win! That, in a nutshell, sums up the agenda of the "pro-life" movement. Misogyny, and nothing more.

[Fleshdancer]

81. exactly

and when I'm talking about adoption, I don't just mean the cute little new born babies that people wait 7 years to get, but the neglected foster kids that desperately need homes too.

I've always planned on adopting a child. It probably won't be for another 7-10 years, but that has been my plan since I was a teenager. Once a week my local news will have a segment on kids who need a good home and it breaks my heart every single time. We Americans are so blessed with money and resources that the majority of the world will never know and yet we still have kids who don't have a place to call home? Shouldn't we fix this problem first?

[PA Democrat]

145. Yeah, but those kids are the wrong color, have disabilities

or have other undesirable "baggage".

My RW fundamentalist neighbor takes her kids to all of the pro-life marches in Washington D.C., but then her daughter ridicules my disabled child and actively destroyed the first friendship my daughter had established with another neighborhood child.

I'm sick of the "pro-life" hypocrisy. Maybe a good start would be respect and compassion for the people who are already on this earth.

[Cheswick2.0]

41. then I will assume that when you get pregnant you will not have an

abortion.

[kiahzero]

132. If you were aborted, there wouldn't be a "you."

The consciousness referred to, for simplicities sake, as "you" would not exist. So there wouldn't be a "you" that didn't want to be aborted unless you weren't aborted in the first place.

[kikiek]

24. You should update your message to clarify the age difference.

[lolly]

25. FWIW

The vast majority of abortions are perfomed long before the 12 week, or beginning of 2nd trimester, mark. Most are performed at, I believe, around 6 weeks.

2nd trimester abortions, when they do occur, usually happen after fetal testing (the earliest chromosome tests can't be done until about 12 weeks) that determine something is wrong with the fetus.

Most of the fetuses paraded around obscenely by the anti-abortion folks are well into or beyond the 2nd trimester.

[JohnLocke]

67. I'm fine with banning abortions in the 3rd trimester.

NOT before.

[Delano]

102. Me too, with the exception...

of the mother's life being in danger.

Many 3rd trimester babies are quite viable, especially with today's technology. Viability is much easier to objectively prove than "sentience".

[Pachamama]

106. Abortion is illegal in the 3rd Trimester....The only reason any procedure

...that is defined as abortion would ever be performed on a 3rd Trimester Fetus would be if the Fetus was a) already dead b)severely deformed and would most likely die during or after childbirth c) threatens the life of the mother.

Hopefully you wouldn't be someone who would advocate preventing a doctor from performing these procedures if they were necessary to save the life of the mother. This is exactly what Congress and the Senate did when they passed the incorrectly named "Partial Birth Abortion Ban" (otherwise known as Dilation and Extraction) that is used in these instances (which are very, very rare). Which is why it didn't hold up in courts because it interfered with a woman's right to choice and to protection of her health and the doctors decision to perform any necessary procedure to adhere to such.

[JohnLocke]

135. Yes, of course there are exceptions.

[Cheswick2.0]

136. abortions should not be done before 8 weeks

it is dangerous for the woman's health. Missed or partial abortions are much more common when a women is less than 8 weeks. No responsible doctor would do them at 6 weeks.

[lolly]

183. Not according to the CDC

CDC tracking statistics on abortions:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5109a1.htm#tab7

The largest increase in percentage of abortions IS in <6 weeks of gestations.

Approximately 22% of all abortions performed in the U.S. are done before 6 weeks gestation; 17% at 7 weeks, and 18% by 8 weeks--over half (57%) are done before 8 weeks.

Abortions were generally performed later in the earlier days of legalized abortion because women didn't find out about the pregnancy until well after a missed period. Now they can get pregnancy tests at any drugstore the first day of a missed cycle.

[Pachamama]

51. FYI - This technology isn't new - Siemens and others have been selling

...this 3D ultrasound equipment for atleast 5 years now....I have had it used on both my children when I did ultrasounds...It's very cool, but I'm not so certain of the purpose of that article and making it sound new...

Sounded like more propaganda from the Pro-life movement on "Fetuses" and trying to attribute qualities to them as people...if they could "walk" in the womb, then explain why my 5 mos old isn't "walking"?

Anyway, you probably posted this thinking how cool the technology was not knowing its relatively "old" in the technology world, but you seemed to realize it would unleash the Pro-lifers and lurkers who wanted to jump all over that one....

[Djinn]

52. something I learnt after working in PR

about 80% of "news" stories even in the "reputable" media can be directly attributed to a perss release flogging something and touting old theories/products/technologies as new. Journalists don't have the time or inclination to find out if the information IS new they just re-write the release and bang it in. In this case a private fertility clinic wanting over $600 (aust) for a scan that doesn't actually tell you anything moer than a NHS covered one would. Would have hoped this happened less at the BBC but no reason to beleive that's the case I s'pose

[jdj]

61. Thanks for posting this.

I love it when people share the behind the scenes dirt. I have read elsewhere that journalists don't have time anymore to research stories, I wonder why not...Is there some entity like HMO's sucking the life out of them like what doctors are experiencing? I mean, there used to be tons more newspapers than there are now, all competing for the scoop, and now the scoop is spoon-fed and they still aren't getting it right.

[Djinn]

76. Often it's because

of consolidation - journo's are now expected to file a couple of stories for the companies various regional and metro papers and something for their online versions as well. Also there are more news outlets but less journo's and bugger all money left in newsroom budgets. You can see why a journalist may cut corners, but there's also pressure from those that own and/or edit the newsroom adn it doesn't have to be overt and eventually self censorship starts to come into play. Personally after doing a few years of a journalism degree I also think part of the problem is Journalists doing "communication" degrees rather than starting at the bottom rung in a newsroom and working their way up - I don't see the point of Journalism degree's - cadetships produced outstanding journalists in the past.

Coming into play in this story is also plain "newsworthiness" having Prof Campbell waffling on about babies "smiling" & "stress free" wombs sounds better in print (and is more likely to get a reaction) than his comments he doesn't really know why they're "smiling" or even if that's what they're doing at all - boring copy when Doc's and Prof say "maybe" or "might" or "possibly" far better to selectively quote the bits banging on about "smiling" babies.

[kikiek]

72. Show "Toxic Sludge Is Good For You" was all about that.

It makes me so angry. Mind control really. Use psychology to get us all think a certain way. It is amoral.

[merh]

90. The article was on Drudges web site today.

IMO he put it out there to stir the RWer's and muddy the water like that nasty little tadpole he is. When the momentum shifts towards the truth RWers have a tendency to try that famous magician's trick of misdirection. They don't realize that the public is becoming more and more aware of their tricks and will out them as the snake oil salesman that they truly are.

[kikiek]

93. I was wondering about the wisdom of this post to be honest.

Sure got people from the same side fighting.

[Pachamama]

101. Should have known it was on the Sludge Report...

...yes, its amazing how the RWers will try to drag out whatever they can to stir things up, even amongst those that tend to agree and unify around a lot of things...

So how long before they are "drudging/sludging" out another divisive issue like say "Gay Marriage"?

[kikiek]

107. Yeah need to ignore the attempts. They get the most responses too.

[jdj]

111. I guess I should confess. I was getting bored what with all the

legitimate news stories happening today. I haven't argued in a while so I was ripe and ready. And what better topic than abortion?

[Djinn]

118. I'll second the confession

all the circle jerk threads about Michael Moore and Big Bill have had me kinda bored here lately :evilgrin:

[Roaming]

148. A few days ago there was a really contentious one up, here is

the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1854556

Check the posts by outinforce -- they were simply shocking to me and I've been thinking about this thread for days. I think this issue needs to be debated more, as painful as it may be.

[Djinn]

192. His posts usually are

always pops up in the abortion therads - rarely comes right out and says he's anti-abortion but likes to use terms such as "pre-born children" which kinda gives the game away. :eyes:

[Kimber Scott]

55. Pretty exciting stuff! Can you imagine when you get your first

"ultra-sound" to see that? Of course, when I was waiting for my kids, I found a lot of excitement in imagining what they were going to look like. Obviously, they will be much changed from the 12th week to the 40th, but still, it does give you an idea.

As for abortion... I don't know how looking at something so exciting denegerated into an abortion argument... My take on abortion, I could never get one myself, but I sure don't think it's my place to tell somebody else they can't have one. (I get pretty squeamish about the late-term abortions, though, considering two of my sons were premature.) Anyway, I wish the morning after pill would be made more easily accessible and I hope they continue to improve birth control methods for women and men. Abortion really shouldn't be used as birth control, if at all possible. Even so, I can't imagine too many women take the abortion option too lightly. I'm sure it's a well thought out decision when they decide to get one. (I have a couple of friends who wish they never had their abortions and I have a friend who is extremely grateful she had that option. She has never looked back.) I wish, though, all the people who are vehemently anti-abortion were as vehemently anti-war and anti-death penalty. It might make their argument more credible.

[kikiek]

65. Right on.

[fortyfeetunder]

128. Confirms what I thought

My only pg was 7 yrs ago, and I could swear the kid was partying in his womb. The other thing the kid would do was respond to male voices...dad would talk to him every night, and the kid would rotate his behind outward to be rubbed; and the at work if I was in a room with mostly males, that behind would once again protrude outward. Once he kicked off the Doppler sound making machine from my belly. All the US we saw he looked happy and content...no frickin wonder he was 2 weeks late coming out. And his post-utero personality has not changed!!!

[AwakeAtLast]

131. So I'm not the only one?

Except my DD was not two weeks late, she just took her sweet time coming out! When we were at "Childbirth Preparedness Classes" (what a joke) She would kick my shirt up everytime we would do the breathing exercises! The whole room thought it was hysterical!

[Yupster]

133. Each of our ultrasounds showed

our son putting his fingers in his ears.

He was born via Caesarian and when the doctor got him, he put his fingers in his ears, and now he's seven years old, and we have to keep telling him to take his fingers out of his ears.

We've even showed his the ultrasounds.

[AwakeAtLast]

134. Ours showed

DD with her legs crossed and her hands behind her head, recliner style. Guess how she preferred to be fed? She didn't hold a bottle until she was almost 8 months old, and she walked at 10 months!

[ArkDem]

137. Pretty neat looking tissue!!

[thinkingwoman]

141. "walking" implies "standing" and "moving"

of course the unborn does NONE of these. Are newborns who move their legs in an alternating fashion "walking"? Of course not.

As the mother of 2 teens, who also had one miscarriage and one abortion I take exception to the "walking" label. Neither of my children "walked" until around their first birthday. This is sensationalism and propaganda.

[Cheswick2.0]

164. yes we seem to have a lot of fetal fetishists here today

sickening isn't it?

[booksenkatz]

142. I dunno, I kinda prefer the mystery

I had two ultrasounds when I was pregnant because I was an older mom. It was very interesting, of course, to see the skull and faint outline of lips, arms, feet, etc. But the moment when my son was born and I laid eyes on his face for the first time was magic, and I'm glad to have experienced that moment in a natural way instead of via a machine. A face-to-face meeting is so much more enjoyable and meaningful!

[Roaming]

146. Ultrasounds are awesome; maybe someday they'll be cheap

enough so you can do them at home. The 3D ones are not medically ordered, that I know of--right now, they're just using them for research purposes and to give parents to be the amazing pictures.

[Delano]

154. When I was in Japan...

Prenatal care was not covered under the national insurance (though medical problems arising from pregnancy as well as the delivery itself were covered.)

However, the cost of office vist was about $40, and they didn't charge extra for things like ultrasound. In fact we did get the 3-D one time at no extra cost.

The Japanese system isn't perfect, but it isn't an extortion racket like ours.

[Yupster]

150. Ours was amazing because

He was born via Caesarian.

The ultrasounds were used to see what position the kiddo was lying in so the doctor knew where to go in and where not to.

So we saw his face, then had the immediate transition to seeing the same face just a few minutes later just where it was supposed to be.

[redqueen]

155. Abortions legal in England for the first ? mo.s of the pregnancy?

How about Canada? Japan? Germany?

Does anyone know?

[Killarney]

156. Ultrasounds are amazing

I was amazed by how fast my baby grew. I had an ultrasound at 6 weeks and saw what looked like a pinto bean. I had an ultrasound at 13 weeks and you could see everything, the entire body just like a little baby... he was moving his arms and legs like he was dancing in there! Haha. I got a great picture of the profile of his face, too. So cute! Then I had my last ultrasound at 18 weeks and found out it was a boy.

Ultrasounds are amazing. Babies are amazing.

In my opinion, abortions throughout the first trimester should be legal, but rare and NOT used as a form of birth control.

And anyone that thinks a 12 week old (or more) fetus is a lump of tissue needs to sue their school system and go back and retake a health class immediately.

[Cheswick2.0]

163. abortion used as a form of birth control?

What exactly does that mean?

[Yupster]

169. There was an HBO special that followed some hookers

Some of them had half a dozen abortions. They used it as birth control. I have no idea how often it happens but if you think it never happens, you're wrong.

[Cheswick2.0]

170. bullshit

that term doesn't even make sense.
When would you approve of abortion? When isn't it a form of birth control?

[redqueen]

179. Ignoring the reality of this situation makes Democrats look

either stupid or evil.

*sigh*

[Killarney]

176. what I mean

if a woman doesn't use birth control at all and is sexually active and every time she gets pregnant, she has an abortion. That, IMO, is using abortion as your form of birth control. Rather than using condoms or the pill, you use nothing and every time you get pregnant, you abort. My neighbor growing up did that. She had several abortions. I hope that's rare, I don't know anyone else that ever had more than one abortion. She's the only one.

[West Coast Democrat]

184. There is no ultrasound that looks anything like these photos

Exaggeration doesn't help the cause of the Anti-Choice crowd, and it never has.

[Nederland]

188. Those photographs ARE ultrasounds (nt)

Try reading the link.

[MissAnnThrope]

159. ummmm..........

While this is very interesting, it looks nothing like the 12 week old fetus in a bottle on display at the Mutter Museum, which is part of the Philadelphia College of Physicians.

The 12 week old fetus there looks more like something from "Alien." If you're close enough to visit the museum, I would suggest a visit. They have bottles lined up for a good number of weeks development.

Is it safe to assume this doctor is part of the pro-life movement?

[West Coast Democrat]

166. Sorry. I don't buy it.

these look really phony.

[Killarney]

178. Hahaha

These are real photos. They are from 3D ultrasound machines.

What did you think a second trimester fetus looked like... fins and flippers?

A baby born at 20 weeks looks just like a full-term 40 week baby, just smaller.

The photos are real. I've had ultrasounds myself.

[redqueen]

180. I don't know how you can laugh

This kind of nonsense is a large part of the reason our party has been floundering.

The DLCers like to pretend it's economics. It's not. Americans don't like abortion, and while they support a woman's right to choose within reason, I think we need to consider restricting it before 24 weeks. It seems most other countries do.

I wonder why our drug laws are so restrictive, but our abortion laws are amazingly liberal.

[Killarney]

181. Um

I'm laughing at the post I replied to where the person didn't think the photos were real. The photos are most certainly real.

Try reading my other posts. You're preaching to the choir. My personal opinion is that abortion should be legal in the first trimester only (later in cases of danger to a mother's life or the fetus' incompatibility with life).

[West Coast Democrat]

182. They look photoshopped

that IS done you know.

[Killarney]

185. They are real.

The pictures the BBC posted are real. Here are some other links to 3D ultrasound pictures so you can see more:
http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/ultrasounds/l/bl3dusindex.htm
http://www.amazingpregnancy.com/weekbyweek/3d/

If you want to find out more about 3D ultrasounds you can do a Google search. It's pretty cool. Much better than the black and white 2D ultrasounds we were stuck with before.

[Djinn]

190. they're real BUT

that second one is NOT a 12 week old fetus.

[mrgorth]

175. Sorry ya'll

This is a life. Want an abortion (sans rape, incest, massive deformity)? Have it before it gets this far.

[Djinn]

191. so in that case

you think causing a "life" to cease if it's father is a rapist is OK? or it's OK to "kill" those with deformities, isn't that kinda Nazi like behaviour?

I've never understood this argument - either it's killing a human or it's not - since when to we "kill" someone because their father is a rapist or because they're deformed or disabled.

This is why the vast majority of the anti-abortion crowd make no logical or moral sense.

In my POV the upshot is this - if abortion is illegal women WILL die having them anyway - do you support that or not.

[Selwynn]

187. If men gave birth, there wouldn't be 500 fucking posts on this thread...

...because there would be uniform agreement that abortion is good and right, morally justifable, and a man's right to choice. Theologians would find ways to bring church teaching into line with that believe. Politcians would make the right to abortion a constitutional garuntee, and abortion would become one of the most highly protected rights in the nation.

That's what would happen, if men had preganacy.
Your local eyes-wide-open man,
Sel

[Djinn]

194. Go Selwynn Go Selwynn!!

[Colin Ex]

193. The brain-eating zombies are coming!

Braaaains. Braaaains.

-C