Something we can blame on Clinton.

[Prodemsouth]

Lack of surprise or the ho hum response to Dick Cheney's Go F yourself on the Senate floor. Because Clinton could not keep it in his pants for our sake, for America's sake. Stuff like this seems like nothing.
BC, (before Clinton) people would have been calling for Cheney's head. Would not have mattered about congress, etc. He has lowered the standard of behavior in this area, no doubt about it.

On edit, PLEASE, I would rather have Clinton over smirk anyday so don't start. I am just saying we are paying for his ahhhh, fun with Monica. He got the BJ we got screwed.

[salinen]

1. I somewhat agree

"Big Dog" should have kept it in his pants. Gore would have won handily.

[lancdem]

6. Agree with your first part

Disagree with your second. Gore made the mistake of thinking all people who didn't like Clinton as a person didn't like his job performance, hence his dumb decision to run away from the record of those eight years.

[Drifter]

68. When asked what was wrong with Gore ...

I once heard the answer, (and I'm not making this up) ... "Because Clinton is a scumbag".

To many people, Gore was nothing but the second coming of Clinton. Clinton fucked up and it did have a tremendous impact on Gore.

Cheers
Drifter

[Catherine Vincent]

2. I disagree strongly!

I don't think any congressman/woman made a big deal about it because, they probably have used those words themselves. They're all hypocrites.

Lowered the bar = right wing talking point.

[Prodemsouth]

7. Cat girl are you 25, I am not being insulting here, but I am older.

I know Cheney would have never gotten away with this in the 70s or 80s. or even early 90s. Yes, the right wing is right, on this allowed for others to get away with a lot more. You know how Americans are about sexual issues, this is a major 'hang up'( old one yeah) Since sex is bad and esp the kind of sex Clinton had this has lowered the bar. It has allowed Bush to get away with a lot more. Why do you think Monica over took "White water" yeah there was nothing there, even Ken Starr was leaving, then Monica came along.

[JI7]

20. i'm 25 and i have heard the nixon tapes to know this isn't anything new

[Prodemsouth]

24. Yeah, you heard the Nixon tapes, not that it matter that he used the f

word, because he resigned before he was impeached. Hearing much of what was on those tapes by the general public was later.

[JI7]

64. but the nixon tapes were released before we found out about Clinton

[lolly]

39. Well, I'm not 25

And this is crap.

If the bar was lowered so much, why did everybody go ballistic over Kerry using the same word off the senate floor?

It's another IOKIYAR.

Besides, any administration with, what, 3 DUI's between the two of them--all committed long before anybody heard of Monica--can't claim anybody else "lowered the bar" on bad behavior.

[lancdem]

3. I think Cheney's gotten a lot of bad press for this

It was a huge embarrassment for the Bush gang. BTW, I think your argument makes no sense. Even before BC, no one would've demanded the VP resign over something like this. Apologize, but not resign.

[coloradodem2005]

5. Anything that gives Bush bad press is okay by me.

n/t

[Prodemsouth]

8. Oh really, yeah but look at how cocky Cheney is and the admin is over it.

not even going to apologize. So my point still stands Clinton did lower the bar.

[wyldwolf]

4. Bullshit

..and that's all I have to say about that.

[Prodemsouth]

9. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

n/t

[wyldwolf]

10. for sure

After defending Clinton over and over on DU from supposed Democrats and liberals parroting rightwing talking points, it's time to call things for what they are.

[Prodemsouth]

11. You assume I am a "supposed Democrat (or) liberal parroting right wing

talking points" because I say Monica was a real bad idea Bill and it hurt us by making things like Cheney's remarks look like "oh he is just being naughty"

[wyldwolf]

15. you've got it about right...

... your comment is just a recycled "Clinton brought our morals down" meme...

Kinda like this one blaming Clinton for the Jack Ryan scandal.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dianawest/dw20040628.shtml

Blah blah.

[Prodemsouth]

21. No it is not. Iam saying that Clinton's actions have helped other

politicans get away with more than they would have in the past. Are you saying he used good judgement with Monica.

[wyldwolf]

23. My opinion of his judgement on Monica is irrelevant. Why divert?

Your post is clearly blaming Clinton for people's less the apalled reaction to Cheney's F bomb.

Which is bullshit.

[Prodemsouth]

28. Something that I don't think you refuted at all. Saying Bullshit like

Bill O'Reilly says Baloney (There! I can use the cheap link people to right wingers argument too) will not mean you have proved anything.

[wyldwolf]

61. The burden of proof is on you since you made the charge.

It is up to you to prove your case and prove it isn't bullshit.

That is how discussion/discourse works.

[bossfish]

12. I think they're about even as far as....

...the impact on the guy to do his job. Both incidents are piffle in my book.

[Prodemsouth]

17. That is yours and my opinion but what about what a good portion of the

country thinks, you have to think about them before you act. Also what will your enemies do if they found out- it still amazes me that somebody as smart as Clinton did this.

[bossfish]

36. Oh, no doubt...

...but I never really cared. At least he did it at his desk, 'cause he was on the job.

[JI7]

13. i knew Clinton was going to be blamed as always for Cheney using

the F word, but i thought it would come from another place.

[bushwakker]

14. 8 years of peace and prosperity - damn him

[JayS]

54. Waco? OK City? n/t

n/t

[Eccho]

16. Before Clinton or after Clinton is nullified by one

quick point. What was the reaction from the white house to Kerry saying 'fuck' in Rolling Stone?

You can leave Clinton out of it. They attack for any reason period. Read 'Blinded by the Right.'

[Prodemsouth]

18. I thought Kerry was wrong in using that word and that is also proably

helping Cheney. Even though Kerry was not directing his comment at a person.

[JI7]

19. and how about when Bush called the reporter an asshole far before Kerry

said anything in rolling stone ?

[Prodemsouth]

25. Again after Clinton (AC)

One of these days people, make that my fellow Democrats, are going to realize how expensive Bill Clinton's Presidency was in Democratic political capital

[Eccho]

26. dupe

nt

[Eccho]

27. Before Clinton or After

my point is that it doesn't matter.

By your reasoning, we should disown Carter, Johnson, and even FDR (God knows they hate what he did.) I think we have moved enough to the center that we don't have a Humphrey, (oops, on edit - forgot McGovern) Mondale, or Dukakis on the ticket. How far would you like for us to submit to their opinions? We are facing the far extreme right with a centrist. Should we just be Bush lite? I really don't get your point.

[Prodemsouth]

31. Oh the Bush lite argument.. Where did I talk about moving left or right

BTW, For the record, I thought Paul Wellstone said Clinton moved the party right. Only he put it in much stronger terms than that. Not what I am talking about on this thread. I didn't say we should run from Clinton's job performance.
My claim is his behavior cost us quite a bit in terms of Democratic strength and that people will wrongly point to him whenever any kind of the moral malfeasances issues come up. I don't see why people have a problem with facts.

[Eccho]

33. Wellstone moved us right????

Alrighty, now I see what I am up against. Are you aware of Bush's past? Sexual or drug induced? No? Then you might consider that the media is maybe taking it easy on one and not the other.

This is my last post. I thought I might be talking to a young person that was misled by the media and too young to have lived thru, say, a NIXON. Nevermind. You just believe what you want. I don't have the energy for this.

I'd argue this point less, and research it more. Please continue your education. Night.

[Prodemsouth]

40. No, go back and read the comments again! Now I see what I am up

against...WHEWWWW!!!. I said Wellstone said CLINTON moved the party right, it lost its soul under Clinton, he said. I believe what is still labeled rumors about Bush's sex life- but until some comes forward or it is reported it is in the realm of the real world it is rumors. You are the one that seems like a young person, you have not made any sensible argument refuting my points. You are leaving Ok I would suggest you do that. I bet you really knew that I said Wellstone said Clinton moved the party right you were just giving yourself a way to get out.

[Eccho]

43. You are oh so right

I couldn't possibly refute a thing you said, and I just looked for an out. I don't spend too many hours of my day arguing with kids about what is really going on in this country. I just suddenly picked on your post, read it very thoroughly, and couldn't come up with anything, so I just pretended to miss your arguement and made up some load of crap.

I'll just repeat some of my BS for you. Talk less and listen more. Know what you are arguing before you go to a site and pick fights with people who just might know more than you. Take it or leave it.

[Prodemsouth]

46. You read it "thoroughly!"..How come you got the Wellstone remark

so wrong in one of your post?

[Eccho]

51. You are right

I did misread the Wellstone remark. Now what?

[JI7]

65. and we knew JFK had gotten sex from various women BEFORE monica

and we had known jfk had been with women before monica. that didn't stop them from going after clinton as if he was involved in something like iran contra.

[Eccho]

29. argh duped again.

nt

[Eccho]

30. Okay, I see that you still aren't convinced...

How about this measurement... Say there was no term limits on the presidency, just like when good ole FDR won 4 terms? I say, not only would Clinton have been the 43rd President, but the 44th as well. (you know what I mean elected in 2000 and in 2004).

You can say what ever you want. Clinton had a 70 percent rating during the impeachment, and I just don't see Bush Jr. ever taking the man out. I would take votes over Republican opinions any day of the week.

[Prodemsouth]

35. You are making a prediction. Remember Clinton fatigue. I am not

convinced because I am not sure what you are talking about your last post, before this one was a accusation that I wanted to move the party right. This time you are making a prediction. I can't argue with predictions. The only thing I ask of people that make predictions is to send the winning lottery numbers.

[Eccho]

37. Yeah, I debated in High School too.

You are making an argument about perception. Something that is pretty difficult to quantify. I am saying that the bottom line is that people loved Clinton. And you can argue all day and tomorrow that Clinton hurt the Dems, but I would submit that you'd have to give us some measurements. How about best selling books? How about the fact that he was elected twice? I'm not sure how you can possibly quantify that Clinton hurt us, but I can certainly quantify his popularity.

[Prodemsouth]

44. Look at the Democratic Party's power in 1992- compare it to 2000.

The Democrats came out of Clinton's Presidency a much weaker party. Review their power in the House, Senate, Governors, State Houses, City,etc- there is a significant decline in power. End of story.

[Eccho]

49. You know what

If I saw things like you do, and wasn't moved by any of these arguments, then I would just switch parties. I think I can recommend one...

Again, have ya read 'Blinded by the Right'? How about Susan McDougals book? No? How about Hilary's quote 'vast right wing conspiracy' or, Living History, alright, how's about Greg Palast 'Best Democracy Money Can Buy', or, 'Dude, Where's My Country?', um, 'Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them,' Joe Conason, Eric Alterman, E.J. Dionne, 'All the President's Men, the 'October Surprise,' uh, Josh Marshall, Mediawhoresonline, DailyHowler, Bartcop, Buzzflash.

Don't waste our time with this Freeper crap. We are easy to take advantage of, because we don't hold uniform opinions, but we know a freeper when we see one. If you aren't one, then read some of the above and come back and see us. All I see from you are baseless assertions.

[Prodemsouth]

55. I am a contributing member to this web site. That means I send money

This is proof you don't know what you are talking about. I have read Brock's book TEST ME ON ANY PART OF IT. It sits on my bookshelf, I am looking at it now. Palast I have read. Micheal Moore, ask me any question about F911- GO AHEAD TEST ME- I am sick of people making these baseless charges about Freeper Crap because they don't worship Clinton or they have different ideas on how to beat the right. You guys that do this make yourself and our side look like we are Salem. Mass circa 1600's or so. BTW, you may want to go to mediawhores on line, you will find that they are "out to pasture" I subscribe to bartcop that means I pay for what I get. The entire notion of your challenge is sick.

[Eccho]

53. You are missing my argument.

Quantify it. Despite '94, the man won '96. And, when he was being impeached, he was at 70 percent in the polling.

[Dorian Gray]

32. I don't like

that all the politicians are sounding like "potty" mouths lately. Didn't they learn etiquette in the Ivy League institutions? (Yeah, I'm talking about both Cheney and Kery.) And everyone else out there who thinks it's cute to use the "f-bomb" whenever they feel like it!

[Eccho]

38. Yeah, when I think about all the problems in the world

Afghanistan, Iraq, human rights, Aids, starvation, poverty...I just immediately trump all those concerns by thinking about who is using the f word.

[amazona]

22. no...blame this on nixon's expletives deleted

Truman and Nixon were known for their salty speech but Nixon really took a lot of *&$) for the "expletive deleteds" in his transcripts.

Cheney is a piker by comparison but let's enjoy it for what it is.

I'm not aware that Clinton had any problem controlling his mouth although Monica may have tee hee!

[hiphopnation]

34. Yeah...

this is a talking point brought to you by that very likable gasbag, Rush Limbaugh, filtered through the corporate media whores.

:thumbsdown:

[RummyTheDummy]

41. It's Clinton's fault Ken Lay is a crook

This was the RNC talking point during the CEO scandals in 2000. They said Bill Clinton set the tone for this because he had sex with an intern in the white house and lied about it. Apparently Clinton weilded more power with the corporate swells than we could have ever imagined. I mean after all, they saw that he had sex with an intern, and Ken Lay, Skilling et al. immediately thought "hey, I'm gonna fuck my stockholders today!"

What a load of horse shit. Much like your original post. When in doubt, blame it on Clinton. How "original".

[Prodemsouth]

45. Lord have mercy..because a talk radio host

Mike Savage,not the RNC, btw, makes a stupid remark it is used to bundle everything bad about Clinton together so as to refute anything bad said about him- will not work here.

[RummyTheDummy]

48. You presume Savage operates independantly of the RNC

Which is a bit naive. I read and saw many Repuke talking heads on shows like Harball etc. during that period who said the same thing. It wasn't limited to Savage. Not by a long shot.

[Prodemsouth]

50. No, he does operate independently of the RNC, begging your pardon,

but if most everyone here thinks that we are in trouble. He may use info from the RNC from time to time. But if you think they tell him to say everything he says you are naive. He would not be fucking up nearly as much as he has if the RNC had control of him. I think you know they are a formidable foe and a well oiled machine. Dude, I used to be a right winger I know what I am talking about here.

[RummyTheDummy]

52. "Dude I used to be a right winger. I know what I am talking about here."

The interesting words there being "used to be".

As someone else posted, your original argument sounds straight outta Ed Gillespie's playbook. Begging your pardon, I must admit I concur.

[Prodemsouth]

57. As I said to an earlier poster, Salem Circa 1600s, I am contributing

member here. I pay money to this site, Ask them, you have my premission, or I will find a way to prove it. You look very foolish, and if there are any freepers lurking they are laughing at you and the Groucho guy.

[RummyTheDummy]

58. If you contribute, where's your star?

Contributors get Stars. Or did Clinton steal that too?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=faq&q_id=44

On edit: I'm not sure I look (or the numerous other posters here who have opposed your twisted viewpoint on WJC) any more foolish than a self professed former Repuke bashing Clinton on a board for Democrats.

[Prodemsouth]

59. No they keep forgetting to put it on I have asked them 10 times - but I

am going to send them an email to send you a private email verifying that I have sent money here- due to your insult. I didn't consider it that important I lost interest in little gold stars after the 1 st grade. But since you are acting like a witch hunter, I am going to push it this time. I see you are still using this tired because someone says something bad about Clinton they blame everything on him line. Yawn.

[RummyTheDummy]

60. Ahhhhhh

They forgot to put it on. That explains it. Sorry to call you out. I meant no insult.

And in other news, my dog ate my homework.

[Speed8098]

62. Buh Bye

:nuke:

[Cheswick2.0]

42. of course, because no other President before him ever had an affair

:eyes:

[fortyfeetunder]

47. Yeah, that short and long term memory loss

We've got Presidential scandals all the way back in American history, and Clinton might have gotten away with this had Monica not said anything.

JFK Sr. got "more" than Clinton did while in the WH, and I don't ever recall as a kid reading about his scandals...and his "mistresses" kept their damn mouths shut...

[progressivebydesign]

56. Are you for real?

That is the weakest, most republican argument I've read in months. So.. when the White House blasted Kerry for using the word fuck in an interview.. what did that represent?

[REP]

63. Oh, Please

I bet I hate Cheney more than any five random DUers put together, but I wasn't upset or offended or shocked or horrified that Dick "Dick" Cheney said Fuck in public. The issue here is not the use of the word Fuck, but the disdain he was expressing when he told an elected politician to go fuck himself when a hand was extended to him.

This is really not a nation of delicate blossoms who wilt at coarse language, and Clinton's dick had nothing to with Cheney being a dick. This is perhaps the lamest argument I've seen lately.

[Pepperbelly]

66. Why would anyone try and blame Clinton for Cheney's behavior?

Should we also blame him for the 'major league asshole' incident?

I think your thesis is bogus.

[ronabop]

67. Ok, so Big Dog bagged a heifer.

So the fuck what? Does that mean that any fucking person in power *can't* say whatever the fuck they want? Do you honestly think that no woman has ever been bent over the oval office desk before?

Sheesh.

(It should be noted that I come from a state where it's quite legal to tell a cop to "eat my cock, you facist pig fuck"... the east, however, is a bit more confused about the whole 'freedom of speech' thing...)

This whole thing is pathetic fuckin' mock outrage to me. We already knew that Cheney was a violent, self-interested, cybernetic asshole. ...Did we really think that a violent, self-interested, cybernetic asshole wouldn't use the (oh, shock, golly gee whillikers) "F-Bomb"?

To be shocked, even for the press, is possibly bizarrely naive. In most people's minds, I don't think the difference will amount to fuck-all. This election is not about which fuckhead can swear, or not swear. If anything, attacks on Cheney for using the word "fuck" play into the hands of everybody who has ever used the (oh my, how awful! how scandalous!) word "fuck". Democrats and liberals come off as puritanical assholes, who can't handle hearing a four letter word.... fucking pathetic.

It's just bad fucking tactics. What, democrats don't want fuckers like me, because I use the word fuck? That's just fucking insane. We need every fucking vote we can get.

To summarize: Alienating people who swear is a bad idea. Clean language is not exactly a wise plank in the platform.

Golly gosh,
-Bop