Fellow Catholic DUers- I need some help.

[Beware the Beast Man]

I've been having a crisis of faith lately.
I was wondering if any of you out there have some good links to articles or websites of a Catholic nature that are Dem-friendly, or at least neutral. It seems as of late that every Catholic forum or website that I access has a hard-right slant, especially in making the abortion issue the one and only voting issue in this year's election. Sorry, but there's too much riding on this year's election to vote on a single issue. Basically, I am tired of being labeled a "cafeteria Catholic." I'm tired of folks who side with bishops who wish to deny communion to pro-choice lawmakers, but give the pro-war and pro-death penalty ones a free ride. I'm tired of the lack of accountability given to the Church abuse scandals. I'm tired of going to places like Catholic.org and having their news basically being a rehash of Fox news or Newsmax. I can't and won't vote on a single issue. I know I am not the only one who is growing apathetic lately. Anyone have some links?
Thanks!

P.S. If you have some good social justice links (like environmental, fair trade, business ethics, and human rights issues), that would be great, too!

[deportivoI]

1. Here is

a site I really enjoy and I am a practicing Catholic

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm

[papau]

2. Vatican has "OK to vote for pro-choice"position - so why the hard right ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=559260&mesg_id=559260

Kerry should prepare an ad on Vatican "OK to vote for pro-choice"position


On 6/15/04 the Vatican says OK to vote for pro-choice Kerry - but our US Media says nothing? IMHO Kerry should prepare an ad on this Vatican position

Democrats.com points out: the Vatican has OK'd Catholics Voting for Pro-choice Candidates.

"Vatican officials clearly told the Bishops that voters are free to support pro-abortion politicans without sinning, if they support them for other policies... The Vatican's official position is that abortion IS NOT an issue that trumps every other issue politically. By the logic of this statement, the Vatican is saying that if a poltician is pro-choice, but supports many other priorities of the Church, it is quite reasonable for Catholic voters to support them over a politican who is pro-life, but fails to support Catholic doctrine on many other issues.

Which leaves John Kerry is a great position, since by at least one measure, he is the best Catholic in the Senate on supporting the priorities of the Bishops on non-abortion issues. So repeat this as a mantra until the media gets it. The Vatican says a) abortion is NOT the only important issue politically, and b) voters are free to support pro-abortion politicians as long as they are proportionately good on other Church priorities"

http://www.nathannewman.org/log/index.shtml#001780
http://www.usccb.org/bishops/intreflections.htm

Interim Reflections Task Force on Catholic Bishops and Catholic Politicians

Cardinal McCarrick Bishops’ Spring Meeting Denver June 15, 2004

<snip>As many of you know, Vatican officials offered both principles and advised caution and pastoral prudence in the use of sanctions. . .It is important to note that Cardinal Ratzinger makes a clear distinction between public officials and voters, explaining that a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil only if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion. However, when a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted if there are proportionate reasons.<snip>

[MissAnnThrope]

Kerry

Kerry should point out that all those Bishops who are condemning him and screaming good Catholics will burn in hell for voting for a pro-choice candidate are hypocrites, as the Church runs Project Rachel. A 13 week program which allowed women back into the flock. I first heard of it when my sister returned to the church after 20 years and confessed to an abortion. He told her she was excommunicated, but being a progressive Priest, he reinstated her immediately, as it's so rare for someone to come back to the church after so long. But he gave her all the literature and strongly advised her to do the program.

I honestly think the church can't have it both ways. If they allow you back into the flock, they shouldn't have an issue with a pro-choice candidate. I honestly wish some reporter would ask these Bishops who are raising such a stink about Project Rachel. That would raise a few questions on how hard a stance the church really takes in this country.

[papau]

15. I agree n/t

n/t

:-)

[Colin Ex]

3. I can empathize.

I decided that Catholicism was definitely not for me after the third sermon based around "VOTING FOR PRO-CHOICE POLITICIANS IS A MORTAL SIN". I don't know how my mom does it sometimes.

Just remember this: when they say you're going to hell for being pro-choice or whatever's cool these days, they're claiming to know the will of God, which falls under the sin of blasphemy. (You can try this with the people who say "God made AIDs to kill them gay folk" too.)

Remember, the Catholic church is a fairly laid-back organization, and I suspect most of the members see things more or less the way you do. Unfortunately, the really anal people make the loudest clamour.

-Colin, who was raised in a social justice household (thanks, mom)

[Beware the Beast Man]

5. Most Catholics are

Especially the parish I attend..but I've noticed an alarming amount of right-wing rhetoric as of late, especially regarding the election and the abortion issue. I'm just trying to find some forums, etc, where I can share my views with like-minded Catholics. It seems the only forums I have found (like catholic.org's) have the hard-right Repub stance (Iraq is just war, Bush can't do wrong and the like).
Thank you for your response!

[Colin Ex]

10. Anyone who thinks that Iraq is a just war

didn't read their St. Augustine very closely. (I believe it was St. Augustine, anyway -- pretty sure, but I might be wrong.)

Forums, I can't help you -- I'm a very happy semi-atheist now -- but I can offer you sympathy, since I know pretty well where you're coming from.

-C

[Atman]

4. Well, you know you need help...that's the first step

Catholocism is a tough disease to break, but I admire your courage. You may feel terrible guilt, and find the urge to grab a rosary every now and then, and you may find yourself genuflecting at inopportune times, but these symptoms pass with time. Good luck.

[Beware the Beast Man]

6. Please, I don't need you to condescend me

I didn't want this to turn into a flame war. I asked for help from folks who feel the same way I do, not to be insulted for my spiritual beliefs.

[Atman]

9. Oh, not an insult

And I'm not being condecending. I was Catholic once. But sometimes a good straightline is just lobbed right at you and you gotta swing at it.

[papau]

12. Please Forgive these folks - in any case, I believe the info above

shows that the Church is not as right wing as some of the male pastors/priests one runs into.

Such a right wing pastor/priest does make it uncomfortable - a daughter of mine went to live in the south, and "normal" services became right wing and she left to find a different church in area - and it was not easy.

Good Luck

:-)

[Beware the Beast Man]

7. Self Delete

Dupe

[cap]

8. a little help

father greeley http://www.agreeley.com/

catholic worker http://www.catholicworker.org/index.cfm

grey nuns www.greynun.org

its hard putting up with the church these days....I sympathize so I go to these sites.

[Beware the Beast Man]

11. Great work...Thanks!

nt

[DustMolecule]

13. Study the life of Jesus

that's all you really need to know. As you advance, you can study how/why Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, etc. It's fascinating and beautiful.

You can cut-out all of the 'manmade' junk. If you are GENUINELY seeking to know Jesus, he will 'speak' to you in ways/means that have meaning and value to YOU (each of us has different 'needs'). Jesus promises this. He always keeps His promises. Trust that.

[H2O Man]

14. No "link," but I can

share a poem that Daniel Berrigan sent me during the reagan years:

Why, O God, are you silent
Why does evil have the upper hand?
Maker, ruler of all,
into what hands have the reins slipped?

The question arises: whose side are you on?
You weren't always so distant --
not a page of that famous book doesn't say it.
You - plucking from disaster
Interposing yourself
Turning natural forces around
Making sure, making sense, making love
Nailing things down, clarifying, repairing
night watching
Not allowing evil a rat hole to slink out of.

Who you are
is far less clear
given the evidence
daily shoved in our faces -
Let me make bold to remind you -

"Faith is a two-way street"

Hope is a hand to hand clasp.
So, come. Believe in me. Take my hand.

[4MoreYearsOfHell]

16. You might want to point out that

the pope counseled asswipe* against going to war. So they must be in agreement with his holiness on that one too, n'est-ce pas?

[Junkdrawer]

17. Another Unitarian in the works...

Sooner or later....

[prolesunited]

18. I can't offer you any help

I left the church years ago, but I will say that I think the right has successfully infiltrated the church and is using the priests to further their agenda and seizing on the abortion issue to garner votes.

In 2000, my father, a lifelong Dem and union member voted for Bush. (I didn't know until afterward or I would have talked him out of it.) He said his church had sent him a video on abortion with graphic depictions on it, including the so-called partial birth abortion. He was so sickened by it and felt the church wanted to him vote for Bush although it did fall short of an outright endorsement, only urging people to look at the candidate's positions.

He quickly regretted his vote and I recently double-checked to make sure he will be voting for Kerry.

Although the church may stand with the RW on abortion, ALL of their teachings go against everything this party embraces. It seems that they have abandoned their positions on the death penalty, war, social justice.

If you look at the involvement of the church in labor unions, civil rights, war against poverty, they were very progressive. What happened?

[noahmijo]

19. I've said this before

It's rough being a Catholic sometimes. Despite that of all the Christian denominations we easily have the highest number of liberals, we still have to endure the "Nazi loving religion" type remarks from other leftists, and from the right we're told that we're lower than Jews or Muslims :eyes:

The truth is I think the majority of Catholics in America follow a different version than what the fundie types at the top preach which does not include frowning down on people who are pro-choice and not anti-gay.

All religions have their fundy types that put a smear on the rest of those following the religion and typically it always has to come from the top, however, these actions are coming from those of OTHER MEN not the religion itself.

As a Catholic I've chosen to follow the religion itself not the advice nor orders from other men who are clearly far removed from any form of reality from their safe confines of the church's structure.

Having a priest with a terrific sense of humor and an open heart and mind really helps too. :)

[Hoping4Change]

20. A resource to help you find other like-minded souls.

A very conservative Catholic group put together this thorough list of Catholic dissenters and organizations. Might be the best compendium of Catholic dissent you'll find.

http://www.tldm.org/news6/dissenters.htm

[redwitch]

22. whoa! Scary bunch!

Not the folks on the lists, the people that made the list. As a RC I share many of the thread starters concerns. Fortunately I have an extremely liberal pastor so my mind is a little easier. But hubby became not-a-Catholic about a month ago over all the political bullshit being spewed. I don't want to give up my church, hopefully I can remain. Friend of mine recommended Voice of the Faithful website, haven't gone there yet.

[Hoping4Change]

26. Scary org but list has links people like Matthew Fox

http://www.matthewfox.org/sys-tmpl/door/

[sandnsea]

21. "crisis of faith"

Yes, that describes me. I grew up Catholic, wandered through other Christian religions, came back to Catholicism because the doctrine actually makes the most sense. The latest withholding of communion and the hypocrisy in THEIR "cafeteria" choices, as well as targeting Dem pro-choice Catholics and ignoring Pub pro-choice Catholics (Susan Collins for one), I'm just disgusted again.

Add in all the stupid fighting of the mainstream religions, I just can't take it anymore.

My 20 year old daughter, who wasn't raised with any particular religious ideology, says don't blame God for what people do. *sigh* Maybe. I don't know. I'm thoroughly disgusted with "God" in general.

No solutions here, just letting you know you're not alone in your "crisis of faith".

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. In case you missed my note in your inbox... :^)

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. And oh, do NOT miss the interview with God. I promise you will love it!

[wadestock]

25. Why the Crisis of Faith?

I don't understand the apparent dilemma you're in. This is really quite simple.

You can be a Catholic, a democrat, and vote for Kerry...there's no conflict whatsoever in any of this. Consider your religion a personal matter which has no real correlation with any political problems concerning the so called "abortion issue".

You see...it was the neocons that brought this issue to a head and are taking people like you and being quite proud of the fact that they're getting you wrapped up around the axle on this issue. They want you to BELIEVE that the democrats are immoral....that's what it's all about.

Let me tell you quite frankly and listen carefully.....
THERE IS NO ISSUE!!!!!.....especially one that truly relates to any religious matter.

There is not a soul here that supports abortion as a casual ideology.
I don't "believe" in abortion. What the hell does that mean in the first place....I BELIEVE in abortion. Of course I don't believe in abortion.

We fundamentally OPPOSE the neocons trying to legislate on this issue, make people miserable, and control people's lives in a very insidious way....all the things they accuse the libs of doing.

Do you get it?

There is not one person that would support the notion of getting an abortion because it is a "good idea" promoted by democrats. Democrats have taken the most aggressive stance on measures that would PREVENT abortions through education or assistance that would allow mothers to make their own more intelligent decision.

A democrat is NOT in your face with anything that smells of religion on this issue and simply wants you to find your own religious answer....which I think should be pretty easy for you to do.

Don't let the neocons fool you on this....

[Beware the Beast Man]

29. Thanks

Perhaps I should have rephrased "crisis of faith." It was more of a "crisis of the Church in which I was indoctrinated." I just wish that some of these RW Catholics would perk up and see that they do not have an ally in the Neocons. Many of the Neocon politicians subscribe to Dominion Theology and Millenial beliefs that not are not only heretical, but have no room for the Catholic Church in their grand scheme of things.

[TexasProgresive]

27. Here's some links to cheer your soul

The Catholic Worker

Christianity Untried

1. Chesterton says:
"The Christian ideal
has not been tried
and found wanting.
2. It has been found difficult
and left untried."
3. Christianity has not been tried
because people thought
it was impractical.
4. And men have tried everything
except Christianity.
5. And everything
that men have tried
has failed.
An Easy Essay by Catholic Worker founder Peter Maurin

http://www.catholicworker.org/

Salt of the Earth

http://salt.claretianpubs.org/

The National Catholic Reporter

http://www.natcath.com/

[mrgorth]

28. Here

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/

[dryan]

30. God Bless You

I know how you feel. I volunteer for a lot of candidates (Kerry included) that the church would probably frown on. I went to a Kerry meeting last week and my rosary was still in my purse. Frankly, I'm proud that a Catholic is running for president.